Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT ISSUES STAY

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DC2

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breathe, can you tell me where I can read about this law?
This may be out of date, but it looks like rather than any particular law being passed, it is more a matter of there being no law in place that says they can not use insider information.

US Congressional Ethics Rules on Insider Trading - Insider Trading by Congress - ProCon.org

I have never been particularly politically active, but the more I look around and see what is going on in our country, the more I realize how naive I have been for my entire life. What I see disgusts me, discourages me, enrages me, and generally makes me start to seriously consider whether a revolution will be necessary before too long.
 
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Sun Vaporer

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I don't believe that Sharfstein is acting on his own...and without green lights from any number of interested parties being hurt by the e-cig. However, I do accept he is a legitimate target. It's easier to go after one man than try to get a handle on entire organizations...and he clearly has a record of being hostile to our position. We are running around putting out fires (no pun intended) with petitions and letter campaigns to state governments and the FDA....but our enemy has no face there. I will go along with targetting this clown for now.


Well put Maxx. I would add that IMO, we have seen that the approach currently employed to "campaign" and "advocate" simply is not working and more needs to be done using much more capital.

Sun
 

JerryRM

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JerrryRM wrote
The American Lung Association was founded because of Tuberculosis.

A century ago when the ALA was created (its original name was something like the American Association to Eliminate Tuberculosis), its first largescale lobbying campaign was to ban spittoons and public spitting (by smokeless tobacco users) in many/most cities and states.

At that time, it was inaccurately believed that spit tobacco juice transmitted tuberculosis. Ironically, the ALA's campaign to ban public spitting and spittoons encouraged lots of smokeless tobacco users to switch to a novel alternative tobacco product called the cigarette, which nobody (including the ALA) realized was a far more hazardous tobacco product for users and others who breathed the smoke daily.

So the ALA helped create the cigarette epidemic, and now the ALA is trying to protect and preserve cigarette markets by once again falsely claiming that smokefree tobacco/nicotine products are NOT SAFE alternatives to cigarettes, and by trying to ban e-cigarettes and their usage.

Bill, some people never learn from their past mistakes, how ironic !!!!
 

JerryRM

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The face of death?

fda.sharfstein.jpg

If he succeeds in banning e-cigs, we can refer to him as Dr. Death !!! :-x:mad:
 

JerryRM

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I have been doing a bit of "Google surfing" and reading about the "revolving door", in Washington politics. It appears that these political appointees get the boot when a new administration takes over and they go to work (for big bucks), for the very people they are supposed to protect us from. They know who to be nice to and who to ignore (like us). I think the phrase "conflict of interest" fits this situation.

It all leads me to wonder, "how do you fight this type of corruption?" :confused:
 

aldreis

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JerryRM said:
It all leads me to wonder, "how do you fight this type of corruption?" :confused:

[OT]

At our level, I believe by making such revolving door movements as public, embarrassing and notorious as possible — and thus, hopefully, less and less socially rewarding.

I have been working with government agencies for the last 20 years, and witnessed the fear of public exposure starting to act as a deterrent for some, along the lines of “Oh, I’m terrified of this ending the wrong way on Wikipedia and making my daughter ashamed of me for the rest of life”.

So, long life to the government watchdog groups. :thumb:

[/OT]

Sun, thank you so much for your efforts. They are deeply appreciated and gratefully acknowledged.
 

ladyraj

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Thanks for all you do Sun Vaporer!

Thanks to all for the links to Dr Death (Joshua Sharfstein)!

When reading over the material supplied by various sources I found this one informative:
Joshua Sharfstein - WhoRunsGov.com, a Wash Post Co

So we have a pediatrictian interested in public policy,
that is against "perks" from the pharmaceutical and medical equipment groups,
who was behind the cough syrup restrictions for kids under 6,
who emphasizes sound research and integrity,
whose is credited with a recent reversal on the FDA stance regarding BPA because of "implied risk"...

Overall, I'd say the way to petition this individual is in terms of removing potential harm from exposure to SHS/ETS via a smoking alternative (indoor air quality) while maintaining the product would not be sold to minors. But...he appears to be rooted in the "precautionary principle" which holds the requirement that one must have proof of no harm before marketing a product. I haven't found anything on his position regarding harm reduction strategies.

Anybody else find anything?
 

Sun Vaporer

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Ladyraj--you are welcome. How about the FDA's very own Mission Statement:


"What We Do

The FDA is responsible for protecting the public health by assuring the safety, efficacy, and security of human and veterinary drugs, biological products, medical devices, our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, and products that emit radiation.
The FDA is also responsible for advancing the public health by helping to speed innovations that make medicines and foods more effective, safer, and more affordable; and helping the public get the accurate, science-based information they need to use medicines and foods to improve their health
."


So by their own admission, the FDA is charged with speeding innovations that makes products under their jurisdiction like tobacco use safer.

How does this mission statement square with trying to ban the e-cig instead of "speeding this innovation" though the process as a "safer" product.

Remember it does not have to bee 100% safe as they only use the word "safer".

I contend that the FDA's actions with regards to the e-cig run afoul with their mission and their conduct is actionable in a Court of competent jurisdiction.

IMO, trying to bootstrap the e-cig to the loopholes of the tobacco products is not only a mistake, but it also will be a failure. The E-cig should and can stand on its own as a "Safer" product and the FDA, by its own admission is duly charged with "speeding this innovation" into commerce.


Sun
 

thelook

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Ladyraj--you are welcome. How about the FDA's very own Mission Statement:


"What We Do

The FDA is responsible for protecting the public health by assuring the safety, efficacy, and security of human and veterinary drugs, biological products, medical devices, our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, and products that emit radiation.
The FDA is also responsible for advancing the public health by helping to speed innovations that make medicines and foods more effective, safer, and more affordable; and helping the public get the accurate, science-based information they need to use medicines and foods to improve their health."


So by their own admission, the FDA is charged with speeding innovations that makes products under their jurisdiction like tobacco use safer.

How does this mission statement square with trying to ban the e-cig instead of "speeding this innovation" though the process as a "safer" product.

Remember it does not have to bee 100% safe as they only use the word "safer".

I contend that the FDA's actions with regards to the e-cig run afoul with their mission and their conduct is actionable in a Court of competent jurisdiction.

IMO, trying to bootstrap the e-cig to the loopholes of the tobacco products is not only a mistake, but it also will be a failure. The E-cig should and can stand on its own as a "Safer" product and the FDA, by its own admission is duly charged with "speeding this innovation" into commerce.


Sun

VERY well said Sun!
 

ladyraj

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I agree, the problem lies in the fact there is no application/submission for pre-marketing or otherwise to the FDA for the e-cig/PV to speed up. In fact we find ourselves in a place where Judge Leon believes the alternative is a tobacco product and the FDA proclaims the product a drug. Limbo, again.

Remember, once terms like "safer" are used one has to define how much safer. Fortunately for us, even the FDA's own study on 2 types of carts show less harmful and fewer ingredients and carcinogens than those listed by tobacco companies' products. (DEG is used as an adhesive in PM's ciggies). We have a few studies that may qualify as part of the application package but I suspect the FDA may require more.

I've been gone about a month and I'm still reading to catch up....does anyone know if an application has been made to the FDA? by any PV brand?

Dr E's study actually infers the product doesn't deliver what it says it does (though a change in brand he tried revealed different results). But this leaves us with myths across the continuum of harm from extreme nicotine poisoning to the false advertising claims the product doesn't deliver. I'd say our enemies are covering all bases.

The end game strategy of anti-tobacco advocates has always been about "expensing" smokers and the tobacco companies out of existence. Making the PV available to all is, I submit...an obstacle.
 
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Sun Vaporer

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I agree, the problem lies in the fact there is no application/submission for pre-marketing or otherwise to the FDA for the e-cig/PV to speed up. In fact we find ourselves in a place where Judge Leon believes the alternative is a tobacco product and the FDA proclaims the product a drug. Limbo, again.

Remember, once terms like "safer" are used one has to define how much safer. Fortunately for us, even the FDA's own study on 2 types of carts show less harmful and fewer ingredients and carcinogens than those listed by tobacco companies' products. (DEG is used as an adhesive in PM's ciggies). We have a few studies that may qualify as part of the application package but I suspect the FDA may require more.

I've been gone about a month and I'm still reading to catch up....does anyone know if an application has been made to the FDA? by any PV brand?

Dr E's study actually infers the product doesn't deliver what it says it does (though a change in brand he tried revealed different resultts). But this leaves us with myths across the continuum of harm from extreme nicotine poisoning to the false advertising claims the product doesn't deliver. I'd say our enemies are covering all bases.

The end game strategy of anti-tobacco advocates has always been about "expensing" smokers and the tobacco companies out of existence. Making the PV available to all is, I submit...an obstacle.


Ladyraj--the mission of the FDA is to speed innovations- Not to bog it down because they do not have "paperwork" in place.

Yes, we have Suppliers right here on this Forum who made application a long time ago and are sitting there waiting for some response.

Remember--claiming the e-cig as a tobacoo product was the legal fiction plead by SE and NJOY, and IMO is going to be a loser.

That does not negate the filing of another lawsuit with a different theory of the case. Again, trying to bootstrap on the loopholes of tobacco legislation instead of the e-cig standing in its own catagory is not the way to go IMO.

The FDA needs to practice what it preaches and help to speed innovations as it states in its mission statement.

Sun
 
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rothenbj

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Thanks for all you do Sun Vaporer!

Thanks to all for the links to Dr Death (Joshua Sharfstein)!

When reading over the material supplied by various sources I found this one informative:
Joshua Sharfstein - WhoRunsGov.com, a Wash Post Co

So we have a pediatrictian interested in public policy,
that is against "perks" from the pharmaceutical and medical equipment groups,
who was behind the cough syrup restrictions for kids under 6,
who emphasizes sound research and integrity,
whose is credited with a recent reversal on the FDA stance regarding BPA because of "implied risk"...

Overall, I'd say the way to petition this individual is in terms of removing potential harm from exposure to SHS/ETS via a smoking alternative (indoor air quality) while maintaining the product would not be sold to minors. But...he appears to be rooted in the "precautionary principle" which holds the requirement that one must have proof of no harm before marketing a product. I haven't found anything on his position regarding harm reduction strategies.

Anybody else find anything?

Interesting article. Our dear opponent Frank Laudenberg from NJ got caught up in a medical device approval after pushing for it. I guess we should have greased his wheels so he wouldn't be against e cigs. Probably wouldn't have done any good though because I'm sure the other BP companies in NJ also contribute well to his continued politicking.

I sent off to him last year and wasn't even graced with a minimum response. :evil::evil::evil:
 

KonaNeil

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Very interesting post. I fear though, that our US bureaucrats tend to have more of a sense of entitlement and conviction (no pun intended) than yours in Brazil due to our differing recent histories.

Our government murdered children in the 70's but not in our own streets and we didn't exile Dylan like yours did Caetano. Our financial system may have nearly melted down two years ago but it didn't have the impact on the average family that your devaluation had last decade nor have we seen gross instability in Canada like you have with your neighbors. I could give more examples.

For good or bad, our government people just don't look over their shoulders or have a sense of irony like yours do. I wish they did.

[OT]

At our level, I believe by making such revolving door movements as public, embarrassing and notorious as possible — and thus, hopefully, less and less socially rewarding.

I have been working with government agencies for the last 20 years, and witnessed the fear of public exposure starting to act as a deterrent for some, along the lines of “Oh, I’m terrified of this ending the wrong way on Wikipedia and making my daughter ashamed of me for the rest of life”.

So, long life to the government watchdog groups. :thumb:

[/OT]

Sun, thank you so much for your efforts. They are deeply appreciated and gratefully acknowledged.
 

ladyraj

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Ladyraj--the mission of the FDA is to speed innovations- Not to bog it down because they do not have "paperwork" in place.

Yes, we have Suppliers right here on this Forum who made application a long time ago and are sitting there waiting for some response.

Remember--claiming the e-cig as a tobacoo product was the legal fiction plead by SE and NJOY, and IMO is going to be a loser.

That does not negate the filing of another lawsuit with a different theory of the case. Again, trying to bootstrap on the loopholes of tobacco legislation instead of the e-cig standing in its own catagory is not the way to go IMO.

The FDA needs to practice what it preaches and help to speed innovations as it states in its mission statement.

Sun

These are the pertinent facts as I see them but please advise me if I'm way off base:

E-cigs were put on the market and avoided FDA pre-marketing approval based on the stance the PV was NOT a combo drug/medical device (nicotine delivery device) and as such didn't need pre-approval.

Health and cessation claims were made all over the internet and anti-smoking groups began crying FOUL there is no proof of reduced harm, cessation, or even safety standards.

The FDA and anti-smoking groups had been going after the legislature to put tobacco products under the FDA's purview and succeeded last year. The FDA makes it no secret they feel the PV is a combo medical device rather than a tobacco product.

Under pressure from various groups the FDA does a study of some carts and simulated vaping but never vary from the medical device stance. I believe if the analysis had been more negative...the FDA would have acted immediately to remove the product. So, though I didn't like the way the analysis was completed, presented, and interpreted...One has to wonder why it was done at all?

Now the newly formed tobacco advisary board is charged to assess the issues of the new tobacco bill which includes harm reduction. Before this board has had time to be formed and then to act...a court case against the FDA was filed.

The FDA has never waivered and what SE and NJOY had going for them is the FDA had acted prematurely before the FDA had that power granted by the bill. We knew the FDA would appeal the judge's ruling. We await the findings probably in late November.

Which way to go...medical device or tobacco product, the PV could be either. Even if a new category were created solely for the PV (which I doubt) many dollars and research with application procedures must be completed for a NEW category versus bootstapping with an existing product. So, I'm not sure going the new route is feasible.

When the FDA refers to speeding innovations what comes to mind is in cases of an epidemic, such as AIDS, when sufferers were dropping like flies and medications needed to be fast-tracked for approval...it took alot of time, advocacy, and the weighing of risks to get this to happen. The weighing of risk was certain death compared to side effects from the new drugs.

Using the Anti's rhetoric a case can be made for fast-tracking the PV to fight the declared tobacco epidemic...but 1) smokers are not a protected class with a lobby group in place, 2) there are already cessation options in place that have been tested via FDA standards...why should another intervention escape such testing? (Mr Godshall was active in getting NRT an OTC rating precisely this way).

I suspect the longer this battle goes on, the more individuals are challenged to supply product, or can't receive funds or mail packages, the less likely the product will grow a lobby group....the FDA needs only to wait us out while the anti-s plant mis-information to the populace.
 
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Sun Vaporer

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These are the pertinent facts as I see them but please advise me if I'm way off base:

E-cigs were put on the market and avoided FDA pre-marketing approval based on the stance the PV was NOT a combo drug/medical device (nicotine delivery device) and as such didn't need pre-approval.

Health and cessation claims were made all over the internet and anti-smoking groups began crying FOUL there is no proof of reduced harm, cessation, or even safety standards.

The FDA and anti-smoking groups had been going after the legislature to put tobacco products under the FDA's purview and succeeded last year. The FDA makes it no secret they feel the PV is a combo medical device rather than a tobacco product.

Under pressure from various groups the FDA does a study of some carts and simulated vaping but never vary from the medical device stance. I believe if the analysis had been more negative...the FDA would have acted immediately to remove the product. So, though I didn't like the way the analysis was completed, presented, and interpreted...One has to wonder why it was done at all?

Now the newly formed tobacco advisary board is charged to assess the issues of the new tobacco bill which includes harm reduction. Before this board has had time to be formed and then to act...a court case against the FDA was filed.

The FDA has never waivered and what SE and NJOY had going for them is the FDA had acted prematurely before the FDA had that power granted by the bill. We knew the FDA would appeal the judge's ruling. We await the findings probably in late November.

Which way to go...medical device or tobacco product, the PV could be either. Even if a new category were created solely for the PV (which I doubt) many dollars and research with application procedures must be completed for a NEW category versus bootstapping with an existing product. So, I'm not sure going the new route is feasible.

When the FDA refers to speeding innovations what comes to mind is in cases of an epidemic, such as AIDS, when sufferers were dropping like flies and medications needed to be fast-tracked for approval...it took alot of time, advocacy, and the weighing of risks to get this to happen. The weighing of risk was certain death compared to side effects from the new drugs.

Using the Anti's rhetoric a case can be made for fast-tracking the PV to fight the declared tobacco epidemic...but 1) smokers are not a protected class with a lobby group in place, 2) there are already cessation options in place that have been tested via FDA standards...why should another intervention escape such testing?

I suspect the longer this battle goes on, the more individuals are challenged to supply product, or can't receive funds or mail packages, the less likely the product will grow a lobby group....the FDA needs only to wait us out while the anti-s plant mis-information to the populace.


Ladyraj--the error lied when SE filed its lawsuit against the FDA under the guise that at that point in time tobacco products where not under FDA jurisdiction. That changed with new legislation, but not SE or NJOY's stance.

The "to speed innovations" is not limited to exigent circumstances. So the problem was not hitting this issue head on and trying to avoid being called an NRT. The e-cig is a replacment to cigarettes that is safer and the end result is not to quite nicotine, but to vape it.

That is the argument that should be made in the Courts. Aligning with tobacoo is, IMO, going to bite us in the .....

Sun
 

ladyraj

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Ladyraj--the error lied when SE filed its lawsuit against the FDA under the guise that at that point in time tobacco products where not under FDA jurisdiction. That changed with new legislation, but not SE or NJOY's stance.

The "to speed innovations" is not limited to exigent circumstances. So the problem was not hitting this issue head on and trying to avoid being called an NRT. The e-cig is a replacment to cigarettes that is safer and the end result is not to quite nicotine, but to vape it.

That is the argument that should be made in the Courts. Aligning with tobacoo is, IMO, going to bite us in the .....

Sun

I agree, the PV is an smoking alternative and it's full potential has yet to be realized. But I suspect that terminology is clouding the issue.

For instance:
Current NRT products are lifting their "cessation" only instructions and going towards the alternative usage "in places where you can't smoke". Sound familiar??? That was the old PV marketing...pharmaceuticals noticed and reacted. Thus, the niche for a smoking alternative is filled with "approved" products that contrary to Dr E's findings on the PV...deliver what they say they do. Even if all the instructions aren't changed on the NRT there are off label uses for the product that include alternative use. Thus, even the sorry cessation rate from NRT would not hurt the standard of "efficacy" via the FDA.

The protection offered by aligning with tobacco products is the e-cig may be so similar to cigarettes that banning them is not an option and nicotine can never be reduced to zero (as per the bill). Studies comparing the cigarette to an e-cig would show obvious benefits for the PV as a safer cigarette or a harm reduction product. The downside of course is the flavor restrictions and again studies comparing the 2 products and how they are alike and how one is safer.

When you say aligning with tobacco could bite us in the ......what do you mean? what insights do you have for the future? I'm unsure which way this froggy will jump.:D
 

rothenbj

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Ladyraj--the mission of the FDA is to speed innovations- Not to bog it down because they do not have "paperwork" in place.

Yes, we have Suppliers right here on this Forum who made application a long time ago and are sitting there waiting for some response.

Remember--claiming the e-cig as a tobacoo product was the legal fiction plead by SE and NJOY, and IMO is going to be a loser.

That does not negate the filing of another lawsuit with a different theory of the case. Again, trying to bootstrap on the loopholes of tobacco legislation instead of the e-cig standing in its own catagory is not the way to go IMO.

The FDA needs to practice what it preaches and help to speed innovations as it states in its mission statement.

Sun

Sun, I'm curious, what did the suppliers make application for? They couldn't have applied as a drug device, they weren't interested in being an NRT product. They certainly didn't apply as a tobacco product since the FDA didn't have control over tobacco until later last year.

I agree that is should be a reduced harm product, but since the FDA appears more interested in banning and controlling things within their little box, it might take some time for them to get around to setting up a procedure for approving reduced harm products. We do have quite a few people on these things for quite a while now with no noticeable side effects (unless you consider not coughing and wheezing a side effect). Somewhere their insanity has got to cease.
 

Sun Vaporer

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When you say aligning with tobacco could bite us in the ......what do you mean? what insights do you have for the future? I'm unsure which way this froggy will jump.:D


Ladyraj, by that I mean that if SE and NJOY do win, the FDA is going to gain regulation over the e-cig as a "tobacco" product and will have the ability to greatly reduce the nicotine content. An e-cig yielding 4mg. of e-liquid is not going to do anything but "cut the legs out" from under the high effective ratio the e-cig currently enjoys thus rendering it an "approved failure". The tobacco legislation does not allow regulation to zero, but it leaves open the "amount" to be deemed reasonable to the FDA---and that will "bit us in the ...." when it comes to aligning the e-cig with tobacco—IMO, it is a fatal mistake.
 
 
Taking a different approach, an attack hitting the FDA head on with the e-cig for the purpose it currently employs is what is needed here.
 
 
I would contend that the definition of an e-cig is as follows:
 
 
The e-cig is an alternative way to use nicotine for recreational purposes and stop employing the use of cigarettes, which is one of the largest killing products ever put into commerce for use by consumers.
 
 
Is that an NRT triggering an intended use that has a therapeutic end point?---IMO, a resounding NO. An NRT is for a short duration of six months or less with an therapeutic end goal of total nicotine cessation.
 
 
To the contrary, I would contend that the e-cig has no end goal and is used purely for recreational purposes, so no FDA drug implications could be claimed.
 
 
As the theory of the case would go, absent a drug or a tobacco implication, the FDA would lack standing to regulate it as it is not a drug or a tobacco product.
 
 
The problem has been, IMO, that too much "sugar coating" has been going on and a lot of looking for loopholes with an approach that stamps the word "fear" all over the E-cig.
 
I would also contend that this fear of being labeled an NRT and a drug is the very problem that will lead the e-cig, at best, to "death by FDA regulation".
 
 
Instead, IMO, pit the FDA against exactly what the E-cig is as we know it and what the E-cig can do. Let the media play devil’s advocate with this type of Court case. You want to talk about winning "public approval" and the "Court of public perception" —a case framed like this in the Media will in fact spark the needed controversy as to how the e-cig should have a legitimate office when it comes to being a healthier alternative and saving lives. Lets call it for what it is IMO.


Remember, that the Court is sitting in equity and must balance the harms and take into account what is best for the public. I do not know a stronger case that can be made when weighing the healthier use of an e-cig against "death by cigarettes" should the FDA be allowed to ban the e-cig.

Bottom line here is that SE and NJOY need to get their act together and argue an "in the alternative" theory of the case.
 
Sun
 
 
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