Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT ISSUES STAY

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Kurt

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If you feel like doing a public analysis of the findings please do so. Most people aren't going too be to familiar with the verbiage/chemistry jargon etc. (a few have already emailed me at my Liberty Stix email or msged me on ECF), and coming from me is going to be thought as biased anyways (even if true, that will likely be the perception on the forum).

Thanks for the consideration if you do choose to analyze it. I have some other testing done but I can't release yet, but would offer the same public analysis opportunity for that as well.

I can do that, sure. But it might get rather technical chemically, and this is a long report that I would like to read over a couple of times. I have some preliminary questions though, that will help me in understanding what you are reporting chemically.

What is the liquid in the cart? A tobacco juice? Unflavored? Some other flavor? And do you know the PG/VG content and nic level?

I'm not familiar with the nature of this ecig in general, but it looks to be based on your website a 3-piece, perhaps with a 306 style atty and cart?

What is the filler material in the cart, and would you describe the cart body itself as very hard, like a 510, or a bit softer? I ask because I think I see some plasticizer compounds being detected, besides the silicone cart compounds you have identified (I think your assignment on those is correct).

And finally, did you fill the cart yourself with liquid or were they filled in China and shipped? If you filled it, was it done right before the test, or had it been sitting in the cart for a while, and if so, how long? If you detail this in the report I didn't see it, so please point me to it.

And to Sun, the great moderator, would my technical description, which may be rather long, even for verbose me, be appropriate in this thread, or should I start one elsewhere, and where would you suggest? This will open several cans of worms, as you might imagine. There is a lot of new information here, and discussion with other chemists here will no doubt follow and be equally as detailed and long. I expect a lot of nerded out fun with folks like DVap, Kin, and several others. :cool:

And I hope the other chemists are reading this detailed report too, particularly those that have hands-on experience with mass spectra, as I have some particular questions about a couple of the spectra that only someone who actually does these could answer.
 

Territoo

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    Wouldn't that turn it into a class-action lawsuit?

    Maybe that's what needs to happen. Every ecig vendor in the country suing the FDA, winning because their case isn't any different that SE or NJoy's. Give the FDA another black eye. How can we go about making this happen?
     

    Adam

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    I agree. If something like this doesn't happen collectively then SE & NJOY will eventually own the market so to speak since they are the only ones legally allowed to import at the moment. Or at the very least they would gain a huge market share because they could outlast everyone with a consistent steady supply.

    But, our strength as a community has and always will be in our numbers. The more, the better in something like this I believe. Think about it, its like a wolf pack. They hunt in numbers and they all get the rewards. The E-cig community needs to pull together in the lawsuit otherwise the only winners here will be those who joined in.

    Keep Vaping,

    Adam
     

    BigJimW

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    Adam--technically, what you where told about only the two parties who are in the litigation having the santity of the preliminary injuction against the FDA's embargo is correct, but it cuts against the "spirit" of the ruling. Becasue the ruling is not a final one, it is not binding on the FDA unless it is the parties.

    I was afraid of this and hoped this was not the case. While it's not the "spirit" of the law the FDA chooses, it's the LETTER of the law, quite litterally. So for now, the only two entities in the US that can get their shipments will be SE and N/Joy.

    Looks to me like we're back to square one. :(
     
    *emerges from lurkdom*

    Hi everyone! I've been following this thread for some time, and now have some questions that hopefully you can help me answer. I've been holding off purchasing a PV for some time pending the outcome of this case.

    I was afraid of this and hoped this was not the case. While it's not the "spirit" of the law the FDA chooses, it's the LETTER of the law, quite litterally. So for now, the only two entities in the US that can get their shipments will be SE and N/Joy.

    So does this mean that I'm relegated to either SE or NJoy for now?

    When is the actual trial? If Judge Leon's ruling is upheld, will it then apply to all e-cigarettes and suppliers?

    I'm anxious to quit analogs, but was awaiting this ruling so as to avoid putting money into a sinking ship. Now that things are looking up for ecigs, I'm ready to purchase. I just want to make sure I make an informed decision.
     

    BigJimW

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    *emerges from lurkdom*

    Hi everyone! I've been following this thread for some time, and now have some questions that hopefully you can help me answer. I've been holding off purchasing a PV for some time pending the outcome of this case.



    So does this mean that I'm relegated to either SE or NJoy for now?

    When is the actual trial? If Judge Leon's ruling is upheld, will it then apply to all e-cigarettes and suppliers?

    I'm anxious to quit analogs, but was awaiting this ruling so as to avoid putting money into a sinking ship. Now that things are looking up for ecigs, I'm ready to purchase. I just want to make sure I make an informed decision.

    No, it'll just be status quo until this is clarified. If what Adam says is true (and I have no doubt that it is) then the FDA changed the rules to allow only SE-N/Joy stuff in and whatever else is seized will remain seized.

    Maybe I should add c/o Smoking Evrywere in my address just to bust customs balls when I place my next order from China. :mad:
     

    Sun Vaporer

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    So, what you're saying is that EVERY e-cig supplier needs to insert themselves into this case or start one of their own?

    If they want to protect their interest that would be the way to go Janet.

    Wouldn't that turn it into a class-action lawsuit?

    This case can not turn into a class-action suit and that is not what the parties wanted

    At what cost does one incur to inplead itself into a case? I have no idea if I can have a lawyer submit something and then if the judge accepts it, then I am automatically in the case or if this means my lawyer has to be at all the hearings, etc. I won't know about that until my lawyer reads the ruling and opinion of the judge and gets back with me. Losing $5,000+ is one thing, adding on top of that several grand more to interject into a case is another.

    Sun, I guess I don't understand the technicallities of this matter as far as inpleading into a case. Can you elaborate as I'm sure there are other suppliers just as confused as I am what the steps are. I understand that is what NJOY did, but I believe they have a lawyer at the trial pleading as well. Not just a sideline player and letting the first string play the game.

    Thank you,

    Adam

    Adam--You can file your Complaint and pleadings Pro Se. All you really have to do is follow what NJOY did. Once you are in the case, you just coast along with the "big boys" so to speak.


    Sun
     

    JerryRM

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    If they want to protect their interest that would be the way to go Janet.



    This case can not turn into a class-action suit and that is not what the parties wanted



    Adam--You can file your Complaint and pleadings Pro Se. All you really have to do is follow what NJOY did. Once you are in the case, you just coast along with the "big boys" so to speak.

    Sun

    Sun, can the other suppliers join in the current case or is it too late?
     

    Adam

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    Sun, how do we find out exactly what NJOY did? Doesn't NJOY have a lawyer in the case pleading right beside Smoking Everywhere? I guess what i'm asking is what are the steps? I will get that info from my lawyer anyway, however learning from a lawyer, every minute is tracked and billed. So, any info you can send my (our) way would be greatly appreciated.

    Keep Vaping,

    Adam
     

    Sun Vaporer

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    Sun, how do we find out exactly what NJOY did? Doesn't NJOY have a lawyer in the case pleading right beside Smoking Everywhere? I guess what i'm asking is what are the steps? I will get that info from my lawyer anyway, however learning from a lawyer, every minute is tracked and billed. So, any info you can send my (our) way would be greatly appreciated.

    Keep Vaping,

    Adam

    Adam--NJOY does have Counsel but that is not to say you do. All you really have to do is look at the pleadings filed by NJOY and really use them a guideline as all Suppliers who have had the FDA seize their products basically have the same fact pattern.

    Right in this thread is every pleading ever filed but I will post NJOY's Motion to Intervene again.

    I am not saying that it is easy by any means, but IT IS DONE ALL THE TIME.

    Sun
     

    JerryRM

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    So, Judge Leon ruled that the e-cigarette (not just NJoy and SE) is a tobacco product and not a drug/device. Right? Therefore, at least for the present time, it is classified as a tobacco product.

    Does the FDA prevent, on a large scale, any other tobacco products from entering the U.S.? Could their actions be construed as being prejudicial against e-cigs? Could their actions be considered as violating Judge Leon's ruling?
     

    Dillan

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    In federal court, it's a FRCP Rule 24 Motion to Intervene. In essence, you have a motion that states that the facts of your case are so similar to the pre-existing one, that they should be heard together. Usually you need to have either the same basic facts at issue, or the same basic law (the latter is the one that NJOY likely used, since their facts are not the same - THEIR shipments constitute a different fact, albeit similar ones)
     

    Sun Vaporer

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    So, Judge Leon ruled that the e-cigarette (not just NJoy and SE) is a tobacco product and not a drug/device. Right? Therefore, at least for the present time, it is classified as a tobacco product.

    Does the FDA prevent, on a large scale, any other tobacco products from entering the U.S.? Could their actions be construed as being prejudicial against e-cigs? Could their actions be considered as violating Judge Leon's ruling?


    Remember Jerry, this "ruling" was a grant of a preliminary injuction granted to SE and NJOY barring the FDA from any further seizures of these two companes for the duration of this case. The ruling is personal to SE and NJOY. They are the ones that asked for the relief and they are the one's it was granted to.

    Should the FDA turn its back on this unbinding ruling until we have a fully adjudicated permenant injuction on file, then there is not much we anyone can do about it absent being in the case.


    Sun
     
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