Smoktech ZMax Owners - Pics., Tips, Tricks and Quirks

[kiwivap]

You are correct. I didn't proof read. Should be VAVG or VRMS (the V's are optional as long as we all know we're talking about voltage)

I'll edit it.

Thanks for clarifying. I also thought of an addition to my own thoughts. I said "To get consistency between output and measurement (reading) is the development needed."

Which is true, but then adding an RMS readout solves that. The real issue is getting consistency between programming input, readout, and measurement - and that's where the extra circuitry is needed, as I understand it. So that's what I was getting at when asking what the provari uses. At the moment on vv devices you program, say, for 5v, and get a higher voltage than you input. So add an RMS readout - it tells you you have say, 6v actually, not 5v.
But the provari has circuitry so when you input for 5v you get 5v. What circuitry are they using?
And is that part of the reason they cost more than the other vv devices which are all off on the numbers?

I'm happy with dialing in what works for me, but I can imagine a day when 5v is 5v across all of them. I'm just wondering if the circuitry for that is well known and available, and what the cost might be.

 

[SolemnPenguin]

Thanks for clarifying. I also thought of an addition to my own thoughts. I said "To get consistency between output and measurement (reading) is the development needed."

Which is true, but then adding an RMS readout solves that. The real issue is getting consistency between programming input, readout, and measurement - and that's where the extra circuitry is needed, as I understand it. So that's what I was getting at when asking what the provari uses. At the moment on vv devices you program, say, for 5v, and get a higher voltage than you input. So add an RMS readout - it tells you you have say, 6v actually, not 5v.
But the provari has circuitry so when you input for 5v you get 5v. What circuitry are they using?
And is that part of the reason they cost more than the other vv devices which are all off on the numbers?

I'm happy with dialing in what works for me, but I can imagine a day when 5v is 5v across all of them. I'm just wondering if the circuitry for that is well known and available, and what the cost might be.

The Provari uses PWM but then smoothes it out to a pretty good flat line. On my scope, in examining the output of my provari it's really a triangle shaped wave with a .2v variance from base to peak; but you've got to get to a pretty small scale to see the wave form as anything but a slightly fuzzy line. I tried, just now, to take a picture but I couldn't hold the probes on, press the fire button and operate the camera all at once.

When you have anything but a solid steady DC output, if you want to make DC style calculations it's necessary to figure out the RMS. The average is not useful for calculating effective current based on a known resistance and by extension it's not useful for calculating effective wattage. Think of it like this. If you're using the voltage average, then you're building in the assumption that the coil will cool off completely and immediately between each pulse. Using the RMS (Root Mean Square) helps us account for the fact that some effective work is still being done (the coil is still hot) during the pulses off period. RMS still isn't perfect; but it's close enough that it's very hard to tell a difference.

If we wanted to be completely accurate and consistent we would have to measure the sustained temperature of the coil. Even that wouldn't be perfect though because a shorter coil would have less surface area in contact with the liquid being vaporize. I've experienced this my self when I made a 2.2Ω coil out of Kanthal A-1 32awg and a 2.2Ω coil out of Kanthal D 36awg. They weren't the same at the same setting on the ProVari (very very close though). The time it takes to get to and sustain the peak temperature would be a factor as well.

As far as displays go, the ProVari doesn't display anything while it's in operation. You can see what it's settings are by entering the power up (or down) menu and letting it time out. The ZMax, similarly will only display what you have it set to. Not what it's actually putting out. I assume the V2 will be the same weather set to RMS or AVG.

I look at the whole issue this way. My stove top has a dial from low to high. If I go to my friends house to cook on his stove top the settings may need adjustment; based on my observations while cooking. No one has a problem with this because the settings are "low to high". My oven, on the other hand is set in degrees, an actual measurement of temperature (output), if I go to my friends house to bake and his oven runs hotter or colder than mine, it wouldn't be okay one of us would be calling out a repairman (not to mention my poor soufflé). Why? What's the difference? One is using relative terms to describe it's setting. The other is using globally recognized constants to describe the settings.

That said. Even if the ZMax (v1, I guess we should begin to specify) used low to high to describe it's output, I would still have a hard time recommending it to anyone based the fire button issues, that I've experienced and that were experienced by others, based on the poor soldering done that caused my positive battery connection to fall off and the ground wire to come loose on another unit who's owner I talked to at a local vape meet (luckily we're both handy with a soldering iron and were able to make repairs!) and based on the fact that even the Z's lowest setting is a little too high. That last point is based on my experience as a beginning vaper. I can enjoy a hotter vape now than I could when I started. Considering the buzz about the ZMax and the similar popularity of the vivi nova (all my vivi novas have come with the 1.8Ω head preinstalled) I think it's a likely combo for new users and it may be too harsh for them out of the box.

 

[cyclotron]

** UPDATE: I had a user error that caused this behavior. A lose connection in my atty caused the Zmax to not be able to reliably detect the resistance and it properly refused to fire. **

Started having trouble with my Zmax. I suppose I'll see how the warranty works out. The button clicks every time but sometimes it doesn't activate and sometimes the "normal" delay for release seems to last a bit longer.

The release delay is less easily produced and since I don't have a stop watch at each release I can't tell you other than it seems to me that it is staying lit too long. Oddly enough I've seen the screen come on but not activate the coil.
It seems like the switch is fatigued. I would call it dirty but as this is only 3.5 weeks old I can't imagine where the dirt came from to get in there. I would disassemble it to investigate if it were not under warranty.

I'm waiting for a backup to arrive Thursday and I'll open a case when my vender to see how things go for a warranty resolution.

 

[kiwivap]

The Provari uses PWM but then smoothes it out to a pretty good flat line.

Yes, and I wondered if anyone knows or has figured out the circuitry. That's the key I think. Some of these devices do hit higher than expected but the provari doesn't. From what they have said themselves they aren't using a linear regulation like the other devices have.

The Zmax may not be the one for beginners - I've seen beginners having issues with Ego twists and vv.
Watched a review recently on the Zmax and the reviewer wasn't recommending RBAs on it. I don't do my own coils so no worry for me. Was wondering if that was just his experience or others have found the same.

I look at the whole issue this way. My stove top has a dial from low to high. If I go to my friends house to cook on his stove top the settings may need adjustment; based on my observations while cooking. No one has a problem with this because the settings are "low to high". My oven, on the other hand is set in degrees, an actual measurement of temperature (output), if I go to my friends house to bake and his oven runs hotter or colder than mine, it wouldn't be okay one of us would be calling out a repairman (not to mention my poor soufflé). Why? What's the difference? One is using relative terms to describe it's setting. The other is using globally recognized constants to describe the settings.

Yes, only the next issue is that if a Zmax comes out that is 95% accurate, there will still be an issue across devices because the others aren't. So let's say your oven is called Zmax and the temps are accurate - you go and try cooking with a lavatube and everything burns. And you try another oven and everything burns...

So that's why I'm wondering if there is an available regulatory circuitry other than the linear type that these devices use. RMS is a good enough measure but regulating output is the real issue for development I think - across the industry as far as vv goes. And then the question of cost.

 

[kiwivap]

Started having trouble with my Zmax. I suppose I'll see how the warranty works out. The button clicks every time but sometimes it doesn't activate and sometimes the "normal" delay for release seems to last a bit longer.

The release delay is less easily produced and since I don't have a stop watch at each release I can't tell you other than it seems to me that it is staying lit too long. Oddly enough I've seen the screen come on but not activate the coil.
It seems like the switch is fatigued. I would call it dirty but as this is only 3.5 weeks old I can't imagine where the dirt came from to get in there. I would disassemble it to investigate if it were not under warranty.

I'm waiting for a backup to arrive Thursday and I'll open a case when my vender to see how things go for a warranty resolution.

This may or may not be helpful - this guy had some interesting results with delayed firing testing different batteries:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7-vv-battery-question-zmax-2.html#post7571255

Hope it gets worked out for you ayways.

 

[Stonemull]

rms is identical power to a dc voltage of the same value. Has nothing to do with heating between pulses, its due to having to account for the fact that double the volts is 4 times the power.

provaris do not technically do 'PWM', a pwm mod reduces voltage by turning on and off, a provari changes voltage up or down by converting voltage and current into another voltage and current using the magnetics of an inductor, its not just filtering it.

I think a PWM mod vapes slightly different to a true DC mod due to how the juice will react. when the power is on it is instaneously higher than the DC mod, this causes more juice to evaporate in the same time than the DC mod, the temperature of the wet coil is non linear, doubling power will not make it double the temperature due to increased evaporation. when the pwm mod then goes off, the coil temp drops, so a low frequency PWM mod ends up with a slightly lower average coil temperature than a DC mod. its a damn sight closer to the same vape than a device using average voltage though.. it is also consistent power as battery drains.
my guess is that it evens out as frequency increases. been intending to test this just for lols with a thermocouple later.

i am hoping an rms menu option tells the device whether to use rms or average internally for its calculations, means setting rms iff will leave a zmax exactly like it was for those who like that, setting rms on will make the voltage and power settings accurate and useable, it will be like having 2 mods in one device.
its simple enough to implement that way, need to do a squareroot or not internally.

 

[Stonemull]

So that's why I'm wondering if there is an available regulatory circuitry other than the linear type that these devices use. RMS is a good enough measure but regulating output is the real issue for development I think - across the industry as far as vv goes. And then the question of cost.

none of these devices use a linear regulator.
its all switching.
linear mods are few and far between and get hot during use as excess voltage is dissipated as heat in the electronics.

 

[kiwivap]

none of these devices use a linear regulator.
its all switching.
linear mods are few and far between and get hot during use as excess voltage is dissipated as heat in the electronics.

Ah, thanks stonemull. The provari FAQ says "Most variable voltage devices on the market use a linear regulator which are only about 50% efficient."
They must be out of date - which wouldn't surprise me with the way things move so fast now with pvs.

ETA - lucky you on the Gold Coast. It's nice there.

 

[Stymied]

Thanks all for articulating this information that is readable and understandable to us non-layman vapors. Not being an EE I always appreciate the knowledge shared here and the way it is tirelessly explained in these forums. I try and keep up the best I can.

I have a question ... and for me it will increase my learning curve, and hopefully is not going to be too frustrating for you in the know.

Why not just shift the industry standard to a power based or (wattage) indexed system of hardware instead of the Variable Volt?Wouldn't this negate alot of the product consistancy issues currently at issue and debate? Is this because of the circuitry or production issues with manufacturers?

Not trying to simplify the technology or hardware. I just am trying to logically understand the effort put into VV accuracy, when VW fills the bill as I currently understand it. and will automatically adjust the applicable voltage needs?

Wouldn't this be an easier alternative for all concerned?

 

[Stonemull]

They must be out of date - which wouldn't surprise me with the way things move so fast now with pvs.

ETA - lucky you on the Gold Coast. It's nice there.

The main VV devices at the time of provari release where ones like the buzz and 5v box mods. So yep .. out of date.

I know kiwis like the GC, we have as many cuzzi bros as the north island i reckon
my missus is from Napier.

 

[Scott_Simpson]

Not trying to simplify the technology or hardware. I just am trying to logically understand the effort put into VV accuracy, when VW fills the bill as I currently understand it. and will automatically adjust the applicable voltage needs?

Wouldn't this be an easier alternative for all concerned?

As I understand it, wattage is just a derived unit of measurement which depends on accurate input values for battery voltage and atty resistance. In order to deliver accurate wattage, the device needs to accurately measure the atty resistance and then—in most mods like the Zmax we're discussing, by using Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM)—deliver the correct, accurate voltage to drive that resistance to the desired wattage. So, the effort to achieve accurate Variable Voltage (VV) is an essential precursor to achieving accurate Variable Wattage (VW).

Clear as mud? Yeah, me too ...

 

[Stonemull]

Why not just shift the industry standard to a power based or (wattage) indexed system of hardware instead of the Variable Volt?Wouldn't this negate alot of the product consistancy issues currently at issue and debate? Is this because of the circuitry or production issues with manufacturers?

I think it will become the norm as time goes on.
to make a VV mod you need to measure one voltage and set output accordingly, you measure the battery voltage and set duty cycle based on that.

to do a VW mod you need to do the above, then fire, monitor the output current, calculate power using both value and the duty, then adjust.

its not a lot to add .. but i think it takes time for the manufacturers to realise what people want. in the neantime, they sell a v1, a v2 and a v3.

just be patient and wait .. yeh right lol.

 

[SolemnPenguin]

Yes, and I wondered if anyone knows or has figured out the circuitry. That's the key I think. Some of these devices do hit higher than expected but the provari doesn't. From what they have said themselves they aren't using a linear regulation like the other devices have.

I could only SPECULATE that fundamentally the circuits are very similar. However, the ProVari must have something extra (like a rectifier) at the end of the output chain.

Calculating RMS Vs. AVG shouldn't require extra components, just software. Unless the micro controller is too basic. In which case you'd just need a fancier micro-controller. Cost difference could be pennies.

The Zmax may not be the one for beginners - I've seen beginners having issues with Ego twists and vv.
Watched a review recently on the Zmax and the reviewer wasn't recommending RBAs on it. I don't do my own coils so no worry for me. Was wondering if that was just his experience or others have found the same.

It's possible the reviewer said that because the most popular coil material seems to be Kanthal A-1 32awg. Which tends to make pretty low resistance coils. I've use RBA's on it (rebuilt vivi nova heads, a Phoenix style and an oddy). I wrap higher resistance coils though and find a setting that works.

Do you have a link for that review?

Yes, only the next issue is that if a Zmax comes out that is 95% accurate, there will still be an issue across devices because the others aren't. So let's say your oven is called Zmax and the temps are accurate - you go and try cooking with a lavatube and everything burns. And you try another oven and everything burns...

I'm not sure how to respond to this because it seems like we're saying the same thing. You did point out that there are a lot of different types of ovens that are wrong though, and they're not all wrong by the same ammount.

So that's why I'm wondering if there is an available regulatory circuitry other than the linear type that these devices use. RMS is a good enough measure but regulating output is the real issue for development I think - across the industry as far as vv goes. And then the question of cost.

Not sure what you're referring to as linear.

There's the DNA for easy development. Other than that most circuit design is pretty secret. There are components like voltage regulators but they usually drop voltage and maintain it as the input drops (think joyetech eGo vs kGo). How they're implemented is up to the developer and they probably won't tell us without a license fee.

 

[cyclotron]

This may or may not be helpful - this guy had some interesting results with delayed firing testing different batteries:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7-vv-battery-question-zmax-2.html#post7571255

Hope it gets worked out for you ayways.

Thanks but all of my batteries are good to go. I have one Panasonic, one Efest, one EH @ 18650 and two AW for a stack of 18350s. The Zmax exhibits the problems with both stacked and not and all batteries so far.

 

[kiwivap]

I could only SPECULATE that fundamentally the circuits are very similar. However, the ProVari must have something extra (like a rectifier) at the end of the output chain.

The provari has different regulation going on.

It's possible the reviewer said that because the most popular coil material seems to be Kanthal A-1 32awg. Which tends to make pretty low resistance coils. I've use RBA's on it (rebuilt vivi nova heads, a Phoenix style and an oddy). I wrap higher resistance coils though and find a setting that works.

Do you have a link for that review?

Yes, I'll post the video at the end here. None of his caveats are an issue for me.

I'm not sure how to respond to this because it seems like we're saying the same thing. You did point out that there are a lot of different types of ovens that are wrong though, and they're not all wrong by the same ammount.

Well I was just observing that it isn't an issue specific to one device - so if one device is accurate there is still a more widespread issue of consistency. We see this now with everything being compared to the provari because it's very accurate. So my point really is not so much just Zmax focused, which yours seemed to be to me, but that what is really showing up as desirable from the consumers point of view is that all these devices should have accuracy with the numbers. So I wouldn't pan a device on accuracy right now, but the time may be coming where it will be a deal breaker.

I'm pretty much with where pbusardo leaves it in his vavg and vrms video - if you have the setting you like and it's a good vape then carry on. But the industry is developing, and quickly, and it would be good if those who want more accuracy can have it, and have it across the devices. Which would make for interesting reviews too - because then the provari wouldn't be the constant comparison. The debates over quality would continue I expect.

Not sure what you're referring to as linear.

Regulation. But stonemull covered that in his post - it's outdated. I wondered if anyone knew what provari uses - I expect they keep it under wraps but thought some-one may know.

Nearly forgot, the vid, and having had another quick look, it's LR RBAs he says aren't too good on it - which makes sense.

 

[Stymied]

As I understand it, wattage is just a derived unit of measurement which depends on accurate input values for battery voltage and atty resistance. In order to deliver accurate wattage, the device needs to accurately measure the atty resistance and then—in most mods like the Zmax we're discussing, by using Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM)—deliver the correct, accurate voltage to drive that resistance to the desired wattage. So, the effort to achieve accurate Variable Voltage (VV) is an essential precursor to achieving accurate Variable Wattage (VW).

Clear as mud? Yeah, me too ...

LoL ... Right! Clear as mud?

Thanks, for the reply. Having the v.1 VMAX currently powering my big screen TV and backup generator. I understand the PWM DC avg created from this peticular versions duty cycle is not ... let say user friendly to burn in my newly coiled rba.

That being said ... and agreed we are talking about the current ZMAX (in the mail) with VW and an VRMS option. It's seems the tech is available and in use on these chips. Adding the option for VRMS is actually gonna show or tune to VRMS?. I'm curious to see myself.

But, I guess my point is ... Why the option instead of standardizing the correction and just tune using a power index if these chips can already do the wattage conversion? Sorry, but I'm not seeing all the gears at work here. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I think it will become the norm as time goes on.
to make a VV mod you need to measure one voltage and set output accordingly, you measure the battery voltage and set duty cycle based on that.

to do a VW mod you need to do the above, then fire, monitor the output current, calculate power using both value and the duty, then adjust.

its not a lot to add .. but i think it takes time for the manufacturers to realise what people want. in the neantime, they sell a v1, a v2 and a v3.

just be patient and wait .. yeh right lol.

That makes sense, thanks for the insight. It is just agonizing for the baby steps from the manufacturers. (versions)

 

[dwcraig1]

The new Buzz Pro's claim to be much more efficient with battery life, did they do away with the linear regulation?

 

[glauserjg]

Got the new one coming in the mail also but also own the original zmax that came out and I love it. I knew from day one it was off but I set it to taste and enjoy the hell out of it. I currently leave mine set to 6 watts and use it on all my rba's, genesis's, cartos, and atties at all different resistances and get a very similiar and satisfying vape. What more can I ask for?

 

[cyclotron]

Got the new one coming in the mail also but also own the original zmax that came out and I love it. I knew from day one it was off but I set it to taste and enjoy the hell out of it. I currently leave mine set to 6 watts and use it on all my rba's, genesis's, cartos, and atties at all different resistances and get a very similiar and satisfying vape. What more can I ask for?

I posted in the general section pretty much the same. I am set at 6watts and it is right on when I swap heads. I was playing with the settings when I and it were knew but I haven't moved it in a couple of weeks now. With the obvious issues that have been discussed I'm sure we will see better setups coming.

 

[cyclotron]

An update to my previous "issues" report. I believe my issue was a lose connection in the atty I was using. I rebuilt the coil as it wasn't vaping good. After the new wick/coil was in the atty the Zmax started to behave normally again.

My bad for not diagnosing further before jumping to the conclusion that it was a bad switch. My theory is that the lose connection was the problem and here's my logic. The Zmax has to measure the resistance of the head before each fire. My issue with delay was likely due to a lose connection and caused the Zmax to delay or fire late when that connection was weak. As I handled the tube it would certainly shake things around a bit and likely change the connection that was weak.

Unless/until I see problems again I'd say I have nothing to see and can move along. I really love my Zmax and I can't imagine what everyone did without VW.