Snus for WTA

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I also think much consideration needs to be given in regard to the bigger picture. Pesticides and heavy metals are found in our everyday environments, especially for city dwellers, but for country folk as well. Sources are fish, veggies, air, drinking water, fast food, and, and, and, and...... I'm more concerned about my well water than I am smokeless tobacco. At one time this wasn't the case, but in recent decades our world has become a cesspool. Truth is, I feel better about the snus I use than the lettuce in my salad .

 

[TropicalBob]

To me, Swedish snus is far less likely to harm me than e-liquid made in unknown, unregulated Chinese factories. You want to gamble with your health? Keep using untested, unlabeled, zero-quality-control e-liquid from China in lieu of snus or snuff.

 

[exogenesis]

...
I've had my snus and snuff tested. They both contain heavy metals (not surprised, I knew powdered tobacco contains lead) and pesticides (that one surprised me)
...

Well done for doing extra testing, good to see the effort being made

However, would it be possible to elaborate on your results,
i.e. snus/snuff types tested & the test regimes & amounts found ?

Presumably the metals and (organic?) pesticide tests were different.


I think there should be benefit of the doubt with potential new info like this,
at least until dis-proven/withdrawn ...... or shown to be right.

.
.

 

[TropicalBob]

The benefit of the doubt must reside with tests made over the years, clinical trials on products, recorded adverse events, medical records of study groups ... not some off-the-wall post saying pesticides and heavy metals were found.

No, the burden is entirely on the poster to post complete results so they may be evaluated. This is pure heresay. I don't for a minute believe you will find such contaminants in Swedish snus or Stonewall dissolvables or Toque snuff.

 

[exogenesis]

I meant the benefit of the doubt as in giving him time to back up his
statements, not benefit of doubt of the results themselves.

If he can come back & say 'these were the results' & show they're 'good',
then you can't dismiss them on the basis of previous info.

Don't close your mind to new data, unless it's wrong 'data',
rickghouse you need to back it up or retract it, or say nothing &
we'll assume it was erroneous at some point.

 

[Bagazo]

Don't know about Stonewalls or snuff but Swedish match has info on their standard on their site (can't post links yet).

Also average contents for 2008 and yes there are pesticides and heavy metals. Is it an insignificant amount? Most likely otherwise they would not have made it public.

 

[Stubby]

Here is the link to the Swedish Match page

GothiaTek® standards - Swedish Match

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Stubby, I swear you're like the guy in a trenchcoat on the street corner...."Whatcha need? I got magazines, I got watches and fine jewelry, I got studies on Swedish snus, I got somethin' for everyone, all ya gotta do is ask. If I ain't got it, it can't be had.....".

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Here is the link to the Swedish Match page

GothiaTek® standards - Swedish Match

Also from the same site a statement of interest to us snusers and snuffers:

"Nicotine addiction caused by tobacco are not governed by product characteristics and consumer behavior alone. Hereditary factors may also be highly significant. In a study by True et al. (1997) that included identical and fraternal twins, it was observed that 50 percent of the probability that an individual would begin smoking could be explained in terms of hereditary factors, and that continued smoking was determined by genetic background to an even greater extent (70 percent). Genetic differences in the ability to release dopamine and other signal substances in the brain could be part of the explanation for these results."


'Course, I guess we already knew that, didn't we?

 

[exogenesis]

So some people are genetically pre-disposed to nicotine addiction ?
presumably that also applies to other drugs as well.

 

[exogenesis]

Interesting table in the SwedishMatch info you linked there Stubby,
some of the actual snus metal-content figures are quite low compared to other food sources.

Thought it was worth putting those snus figures in perspective with intake from food generally.

Using info from 2006 & 2007 studies published by theUK Food Standards Agency
http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/fsismetals0107.pdf
http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/fsis0109metals.pdf

re-presented graphically in terms of their estimated average actual intake, the red lines are 'safety guide' levels given.
units are 'microgram / kg of body / day'

Values for intake from food calculated from table of 'average kg-food/person/day' +
the 'food mg/kg metal-content' tables, & assuming a 100kg person.

.

.

Food catgories are:
Bread
Miscellaneous Cereals
Carcase meat
Offal
Meat products
Poultry
Fish
Oils and fats
Eggs
Sugar & preserves
Green vegetables
Potatoes
Other vegetables
Canned vegetables
Fresh fruit
Fruit products
Beverages
Milk
Dairy products
Nuts
SNUS


Total intake via food (same units as above) :
cadmium : 0.11 (safety guide = 1.0)
chromium : 0.22 (safety guide = 150)
lead : 0.064 (safety guide = 3.6)
nickel : 1.3 (safety guide = 5.0)

So for Snus (on the end of each graph), assuming 5 grams/day for a 100kg person,
could represent a significant proportion of the intake
thats's assuming they were swallowed & digested!

2004 food metal-content limits from : http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/contamupdatescot.pdf
The range across various foods (dairy, meat, vegatables & many others) in mg/kg (wet) :

cadmium : 0.05 to 1.0, 0.2 for leafy vegetables [Snus = 0.3]
lead : 0.02 (milk) to 0.5 (offal), 0.2 for meat excluding fish, 0.2 for leafy vegetables [Snus = 0.1]
mercury : 0.5 to 1.0 [Snus = ?]

That took longer than I anticipated.

edit: thinking about it, this isn't quite the right thread for this metals discussion ?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

So some people are genetically pre-disposed to nicotine addiction ?
presumably that also applies to other drugs as well.

I'd say so. The study from RCP you linked to made the same determination with better elaboration and from my own experiences, as well as what I've read from others on the forum, those who struggle with PV only use also have histories of some type of chemical abuse and/or depressive tendencies. I've recently determined my heavy use of the high nic snus is akin to the effects of some of the anti-depressant/anti-anxiety drugs I've used in the past without the side-effecs. I'm quite thrilled at this, but overuse has me a bit too mellow. I've decided to cut back some for this reason .
Heck of a graph workup ya got there. Good stuff, thanks for taking the time to post it .

 

[exogenesis]

Overly mellow, good description of how I feel if over-snusing,
body's saying - that's a fine amount of alkaloids ,
but I'm deliberately being careful not too over do it as well.

But pretty sure we're (well I am at least) upping my alkaloid tolerance,
wonder if in Sweden there's many who get to the chain-snuning point.

Think I might move my last post to the smokeless section,
probably more relevant there, doesn't seem that much interest from within here.

 

[Caesarea]

Potatoes look a lot more dodgy than snus, Exo!

 

[slybootz]

vaping plus nasal snuff works best for me. and i do use an occasional snus when i need it, or if i'm in a place i don't feel comfortable vaping/snuffing. although, i am waiting on a large order of many different cans of swedish snus to try, which will be much better than my meager selection of general minis, and a whole lot of camel snus...

i definitely need all three to keep me away from smoking

 

[rickghouse]

Hi, exogenesis -

Sure, I've recently been introduced to a field of science that I never knew existed. Here's a layman's rundown: There are many trillions of frequencies, all unique. For example, copper has a specific frequence, and so does gold. There is nothing that we can do do copper, to make it emit the frequency of gold. If we could, we could turn copper into gold!

Healthy heart tissue has a frequency, likewise healthy lung tissue, etc. Parasites, cancer cells and every other disease have their own frequencies.

Hypothesis: Let's say I have a sample of lead (or mercury, or any other harmful heavy metal), and measure its frequency. I also have a sample of an unknown material. If I find the identical frequency in my unknown sample, I know for a certainty that the sample contains the known substance.

I'm hesitant to give out this link. It would be unwise to name this technology on a public forum. Big Pharma and our medical system succeeded in wiping it off the face of the planet once. It has a 100% successs ratio (which explains why they want it eradicated).

Rife Technology May Have Been The Greatest Tragedy of The Twentieth Century - Naturopathic Medicine Really Does Work

To me, Swedish snus is far less likely to harm me than e-liquid made in unknown, unregulated Chinese factories. You want to gamble with your health? Keep using untested, unlabeled, zero-quality-control e-liquid from China in lieu of snus or snuff.

http://www.rife.org/
I agree, TB -

I don't trust any of the Chinese liquids. However, I did have my 60mg/ml Nhale/Xhale liquid tested, and it contains no heavy metals or pestacides.

I'm not condeming snus & snuff. They help me get by. Right now, I need them And as far as harm reduction, I expect I'm experincing a 95+% reduction over analogs.

Regarding the questions of percentage, I can't give an exact answer. Heavy metals exist in my Swedish snus and my snuff. They do not exist in my main eliquid.

If anyone doubts my results, I'm up to the challenge. I will pay for a comprehensive chemical analysis of my snus (Thunder, Knox, General Dry Mini Mint, General White Portion, General Original Portion) or snuff (Rooster, Dhalakia Kamal, Manjul, White, Aniseed Mebthol, Medicated or Swiss Chocolate). The challenger will submit to a neutral party an equal amount of money. If the sample contains heavy metals, the challenger will pay for the test. If not, I pay.

Let the truth be known!

Rick.

 

[Stubby]

Rick: At this point no one is denying that there are heavy metals in snus, but as in most things, the dose is everything. If you read the above postings and charts you'll see the amount is well within the range of other common foods. I guess I could stop ingesting heavy metals by not eating, or drinking water, or breathing... but that has its problems.

As far as safer then e-liquid, their have been some suggestion that inhaling PG or VG in heavy amounts for many months may not be as harmless as first thought. Some long time users are starting to develop problems. There are some big unknowns out there in the PV world. If you really want to do reduced harm with what is known, then snus is still at the top of the list.

 

[exogenesis]

Potatoes look a lot more dodgy than snus, Exo!

You're right , but I've not tried them under the lip yet,
at least not the 3.5 kg/day needed to reach the cadmium safety guide.


That was slightly surreal rickghouse, I assume you're just joshing about the whole
Rife technique thing, if not, er .... !
How would you propose to get them tested (I thought you already had) ?


No such thing as a harmless anything - in the limit, just a question of degree,
I agree with Stubby snus are close to harmless as real tobacco will get,
feeling a bit stewed recently though - is there such a thing as too much of a good thing?

Wish there were such a thing as saltless snus - is it just for taste or for longer shelf-life ?
.
.

 

[Bagazo]

It may be true that there are a lot of unkowns when it comes to PV but snus is not at the top of the list when it comes to harm reduction.

This study shows that there are some Indian products(I think Gutkha) that seem to be about as safe as snus and also Avira(Stonewall hard snuff) has the lowest amounts of TSNAs and heavy metals. Although it also has less nic but still fares well. Not having had any of these (and therefore no bias) I would have to put Stonewalls at the top of the list.

www DOT rcplondon DOT ac DOT uk/pubs/contents/e226ee0c-ccef-4dba-b62f-86f046371dfb.pdf

Where DOT=.

Then again you could just use your e-juice to make up some candy or inject a couple drops into some gum with the liquid filling. If you don't feel like messing too much with things like that then a couple (just a couple) of drops under your tongue.

Exo: I think that the salt is there as a throw back to the days when there was no refridgeration. Snus being moist they had to have a way to keep bacteria at bay. Since now it's usually stored cold/frozen except for a couple of days worth carried around I guess they could leave the salt out but humans being humans there would always be those that would complain that it just ain't the same.

Maybe make your own.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

No such thing as a harmless anything - in the limit, just a question of degree,
I agree with Stubby snus are close to harmless as real tobacco will get,
feeling a bit stewed recently though - is there such a thing as too much of a good thing?


.

This is the absolute truth, rick. Your concerns appear to be misguided in your quest to find things wrong to the point of obsession. There's a negative something to everything. I don't see snus use having any more of a negative impact on my health than the water I'm presently drinking from the bottle at my right hand. And if heavy metals in minute amounts are a concern it would be wise to give up food before snus.
I only see an argument for the sake of arguing. I can't function as a normal individual without the intake of something to aid what my body can't do on its own and I really don't ever expect that to change. Maybe you do and if it works out I'd be very happy for you, but if your body won't do its part, you're left with smokes, drugs or smokeless tobacco....'til death, your choice. I've made mine.