So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

That may be the bottom line for the delivery side.
As with most things, there are 2 sides.
What we are looking for is the needs side.

One doesnt have to equal the other and will be diff for each person.

Exactly. Why can't I put things so simply? a2s, this is what I mean, I feel I have all I need. Maybe not how I'd like it sometimes, but I do have what I need for completion. Hopefully your order will be in the mail tomorrow, have faith . Thanks for assistance Uncle V.

 

[a2dcovert]

Well, I hope that things start getting better soon. Times almost up.

 

[Vaporer]

Because I'm simple minded.

That was quite a nice analogy TV.
Hopefully the snus will take off some of the edge a2d and give you some room to think.
A lot is self analysis. Then address the bad places/things you find and seeing the outcome. After that you address what you find out and go from thier outcomes. A logical progression. Self awareness can be a great tool. One step at a time.

I agree with TV 100%. This isnt complete, but it is manageable. Its never gonna be just like an analog. But we're kicking the crap put of a long time addiction in a pretty short time frame. All we have to do is hang on till the new habits replace the old ones.

I'm doing well with snus and vaping, but now I'm looking for a really enjoyable flavor to vape. If I find one or a few, thats points in my favor against it. I may be feeling ok and decide to vape a little with a boost of extra menthol. Did I need it right then, no, but the satisfaction may keep a bad feeling from coming on or delay it some. Points in my favor.

Just dont give in. I havent seen anyone in this thread that found some sort of satisfaction just up and leave. They stay around to help others and maybe find something better, or extra, for themselves at the same time. Even though they could get by on what they have found here and other places.

 

[Mister]

All we have to do is hang on till the new habits replace the old ones.

You made me realize something strange I've experienced lately.

When I quit smoking for 23 months, at the end of that time cigarette smoke still smelled good. Very good. I sometimes walked a bit out of my way at store entrances where there were smokers just to enjoy a nice whiff of second hand smoke.

But now after a bit under five months of vaping second hand smoke no longer smells good to me. It smells partly bad, partly good, but it doesn't evoke an "ahhhhh" response.

I'm still missing something even with the snus supplement. But it is less strong than the parts I have now displaced. And whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be the smell of smoking anymore, that part is gone.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'm still missing something even with the snus supplement. But it is less strong than the parts I have now displaced. And whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be the smell of smoking anymore, that part is gone.

"Smell" has got to be the most powerful tool our bodies keep in its addiction arsenal. Even if we feel the smell isn't pleasing. In my past battles with alcohol addiction I associated the smell of hard liquor with anxiety, hangover, brush's with the law, regret.......but, somewhere deep inside, there was still desire. My alcohol addiction had a voice of its own that was telling me of the relief that would come with a good buzz. The smell of a burning cigarette is no different for me. If I'm not on guard, I can almost feel my chest expand with the inhale and the relaxation with the exhale. As with alcohol, I have to make myself focus on the good of not smoking and all its benefits while blocking my natural desire. Eventually, I'm sure it'll come automatically without effort, but smell is surely more powerful for my addiction than it is for my pleasure.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Its never gonna be just like an analog. But we're kicking the crap put of a long time addiction in a pretty short time frame. All we have to do is hang on till the new habits replace the old ones.

I think you make a couple of profound points in your last few posts, Vaporer. This is just one thought they provoked in me:

Routine and belief are both really powerful, even on a neurochemical level.

Why does a pain placebo work, but not if the patient is administered an opioid antagonist first? It's not because one isn't in true physical pain. It's because somehow, you not only believe you'll feel less pain, you actually produce some endogenous opioids.
Why do we say to 'fake it til you make it'? It's because somehow, habit has a feedback effect on belief.

That's not to say you can always or totally make up an absent neurochemical effect (like the alkaloids) with sheer belief and forced habituation...as we're finding here.

But somehow, holding on and finding a combination of substitutes that vaguely approximates the feeling of combusted tobacco to you, making it your daily routine for long enough, and waiting until it feels almost normal... well, it may easily be the only route.

And especially when you think of something as a "last resort", it can become more powerful. This ain't The Secret (ugh), it's just the fact that cognitive framing and intentionality are surprisingly important.

 

[TropicalBob]

But somehow, holding on and finding a combination of substitutes that vaguely approximates the feeling of combusted tobacco to you, making it your daily routine for long enough, and waiting until it feels almost normal... well, it may easily be the only route.

The entire post is superb, Madame Psychosis, but this has the most powerful ring of truth. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing, and encouraging others to at least try this way.

 

[olderthandirt]

...

Routine and belief are both really powerful, even on a neurochemical level.

...Why do we say to 'fake it til you make it'? It's because somehow, habit has a feedback effect on belief.

...making it your daily routine for long enough, and waiting until it feels almost normal... well, it may easily be the only route.

...the fact that cognitive framing and intentionality are surprisingly important.

The entire post is superb, Madame Psychosis, but this has the most powerful ring of truth. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing, and encouraging others to at least try this way.

Been very happy reading posts from Madame as well. Madame you have the same ability as T Bob in that you can communicate.

Really communicate.

Routine and intent are huge factors in my daily quest for that level state. It's nice to be able to say that the intent side of the equation is moving more towards pleasure and away from maintenance.

That move is due in a large part to the variety I've encompassed in the battle against smoke.

 

[a2dcovert]

I'm sad to report that I have had a temporary set back. Until I have a working plan B I'm going to have to suppliment my treatment with tobacco. Unless a working substitute is found I have no choice. My depression was reaching dangerous levels. I was becomming a danger to my self and others. It really had nothing to do with will power. I have been smoke free for more than 8 months. The last 5 months have become a living hell. It became clear that I was getting worse and could no longer take the chance. I had to feed the monster or the monster would destroy me.

I haven't given up, it's just a set back. I'm going to see if I can find a doctor who really understands anti-depressants and see if I can get help from chemistry before I attempt to quit completely again. It's possible that one or more of the medications I am taking is working against me. I recently was given Pristiq by my GP in hopes that it would ease the symptoms. I found the following statement about Pristiq:

People taking MAOIs should not take PRISTIQ

I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not. I have a lot more learning to do about me and the options I have that might help future attempts. I'm not giving up!

After my heart surgery in 2004 I quit smoking for 3 months cold turkey. Then I lost the battle the same way. People thought that I didn't have enough will power to stay off of cigarettes. There is no way to defeat depression with will power.

I'm not going anywhere, I will continue to participate in the discussions and look hopefully for some solution. I hope you understand, I thought I needed to share this.

 

[Mister]

a2dcovert, of course we understand. Here of all places we know there are many faces to the strong physical needs which smoking can address. It sounds like you have done everything you can to find a workable alternative. Making a conscious decision to smoke again is a reasonable choice when that's the only way to get right again.

With luck when you're right again and one day want to take another shot, the vaping community will understand more about alternatives and there will be more options for you.

 

[sunset]

a2dcovert, Thanks for sharing with us. I don't write that much in here, but I was wondering how you were doing. Honestly... I've been reading your posts.

Actually it sounds like you're doing the right thing...'take care of yourself first' and see what works from another angle. How many times have I done that in my life to get me to where I want to go and wasn't quitting at what I wanted, just trying it differently.

Glad to see you're not beating yourself up. You take care of yourself.

 

[Vaporer]

a2d,
Do what you need to do. This is not a session on torture.
Best wishes in getting your depression under control.

 

[a2dcovert]

Thanks guys. The situation is well under control now. Amazing what calming effect those stinky sticks have. I can't stand the taste.

Biggest problem now is facing my friends and myself for failure. That too can be overcome. That type of sadness can be overcome.

Thanks for your support.

 

[olderthandirt]

...
Biggest problem now is facing my friends and myself for failure. That too can be overcome. That type of sadness can be overcome.

Thanks for your support.

Extreme situations call for extreme measures.

You've heard that before I'm sure.
I fail to see where you've anything to consider a failure bud. Taking what steps you deem necessary when you feel they are needed, followed by talking about them is all anyone can do A2d.

Count me in with the others that are around for whatever support you can garner

 

[Mister]

Biggest problem now is facing my friends and myself for failure. That too can be overcome. That type of sadness can be overcome.

Don't face yourself for failure. You did not fail.

Friends are a more difficult issue. Some years ago when I decided to start smoking again after a long quit, because I wasn't willing to continue the torture with no end in sight, my wife and my doctor were both actually supportive. Friends were a harder issue. I told them that I'd deliberately chosen to smoke again because my body needed it. Most people at least tried to understand and weren't judgemental.

 

[a2dcovert]

One regret I have is not admitting that I was having trouble sooner. If I had found you guys a couple of months earlier I might have made it all the way, or not. But one thing is certain, we are all different. What works for one may not for the other. It's the collaboration and trying things until you find one that fits you that's important.

The problems with a lot of doctors and researchers is they try to apply cookie cutter medical treatments to the masses. Everyone is different and will respond differently to the same treatments.

 

[olderthandirt]

...It's the collaboration and trying things until you find one that fits you that's important.
....

Amen to that buddy! You know your gonna find what it takes to level out eventually A2d. Lotta smarts, experience and good intent here-abouts!

 

[frankie1]

A2D: I am with you. I cannot quit completely....at least not yet. I keep trying however, and I refuse to say I "failed". I am still working on it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! It took me 40 years to develop this addiction....I'm not going to break it in a few months, I don't think. The up side is that I am level and functional, not tortured, at 1/2 what I used to smoke. Plan B consists of cutting that in half again as soon as I possibly can. Then when I am level and functional, I'll try cutting it in half again. I am still way ahead of where I was and at this point in time, that is the best that I can do.

Thank you for sharing your story. It makes me feel better about my efforts in this very difficult environment. God bless!

 

[SurfVortex]

a2d, we only fail when we stop trying to find a better solution.
-Better solutions are being actively sought 'round here.
All we can do is stabilize ourselves while we hunt.
Ditto to OTD's encouragement!

 

[exogenesis]

a2dconvert, don't see any reason to beat youself up about it,
if you're fighting a battle with yourself (like we all are to varying degrees),
you can't win straight away, just lessen the damage, maybe.
Long term objectives give you hope.

I'll allow myself cigarettes at a reduced rate, with a new splurge with vaping
and snus, cos the stress of the internal argument is not going to help at all.
No guilt here, don't see any reason why there should be.

Until the perfect solution surfaces, you can only do the best you can.....