So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[IANAN]

(Cat's Claw) Day Six;

1. Desire to smoke- No desire to smoke in morning. No strong urges.

2. Mental Awareness state (Mental Fog)- No loss of volition in the morning. No loss of volition in mid afternoon-early as coffee was administered 3 hours after lunch.
3. Anxiety (Relaxed state) and restlessness- Slept well the night before. Period of excess energy similar to caffeine buzz, not present. General feeling of well-being throughout the day.

4. Perceived GI (Gastro-intestinal) effects including effects on bowl movements- normal.

5. Effectiveness of and frequency of vaping sessions to reduce cravings- Still most effective when drinking coffee .

6. Number of traditional cigarettes consumed (If any)- 11

 

[IANAN]

Post was #569:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...we-getting-we-not-nicotine-57.html#post737131


Doing a web search will surely reveal more values, for the full 'real' info
someone might have to purchase some papers though.

A lot of the numbers are in an article called

"The Less Harmful Cigarette: A Controversial Issue.
A Tribute to Ernst L. Wynder"

The article is here The less harmful cigarette: a controversial issue.... [Chem Res Toxicol. 2001] - PubMed result

And full text can be found here; http://www.starscientific.com/404/Hoffmann Article.pdf

 

[TropicalBob]

Hey Kristin! Kin developed a great theory on "what is missing", that we're not so much addicted to nicotine as to smoking. If that's the case, simply shoveling nicotine into a smoker won't replicate the smoking experience sufficiently to assure easy quitting.

DVap took it from there and extracted and purified some liquid containing whole tobacco alkaloids. As they say, so far, so good. It seems to be a great improvement over "high nicotine" e-liquids.

If this is all correct, then it might also explain the dismal failure rate of Big Pharma's NRT products. It's not a single drug/chemical that is needed; it's the full spectrum in support of the major addictive chemical.

A reason I find this plausible is my own need for snus, Stonewall and nasal snuff. All are tobacco products, but aren't smoked or produce smoke. What they do have in common is that none are processed to remove tobacco alkaloids. I like e-smoking -- don't get me wrong -- but it has never fully satisfied me. I get far more overall satisfaction from the others.

(I ran out of Java Stonewall two days ago and thought I'd just keep using snus, e-cigs, etc. Ha. I was speeding to the tobacco store within four hours. Love Stonewall.)

I'm looking forward to results from the next round of WTA testing. If all of this is correct, NRT products need reformulation. And it wouldn't be difficult to do. This could revolutionize the quit-smoking effort.

 

[kristin]

Ianan - what was your pre-testing daily tobacco cigarette consumption?

Also, I've been reading your updates, but somewhere I missed the reference to "cat's claw?" What is that exactly - the method you're using or a particular substance? I understood you were taking some kind of suppliments, eating chocolate and increasing coffee, correct?

I was in the suppliments section at the store today and found myself looking for something called "cats claw," lol!

 

[kristin]

Hey Kristin! Kin developed a great theory on "what is missing", that we're not so much addicted to nicotine as to smoking. If that's the case, simply shoveling nicotine into a smoker won't replicate the smoking experience sufficiently to assure easy quitting.

DVap took it from there and extracted and purified some liquid containing whole tobacco alkaloids. As they say, so far, so good. It seems to be a great improvement over "high nicotine" e-liquids.

If this is all correct, then it might also explain the dismal failure rate of Big Pharma's NRT products. It's not a single drug/chemical that is needed; it's the full spectrum in support of the major addictive chemical.

A reason I find this plausible is my own need for snus, Stonewall and nasal snuff. All are tobacco products, but aren't are smoked or produce smoke. What they do have in common is that none are processed to remove tobacco alkaloids. I like e-smoking -- don't get me wrong -- but it has never fully satisfied me. I get far more overall satisfaction from the others.

(I ran out of Java Stonewall two days ago and thought I'd just keep using snus, e-cigs, etc. Ha. I was speeding to the tobacco store within four hours. Love Stonewall.)

I'm looking forward to results from the next round of WTA testing. If all of this is correct, NRT products need reformulation. And it wouldn't be difficult to do. This could revolutionize the quit-smoking effort.

Yes, I think I caught up that and agree wholeheartedly! But my actual question to you was about your PG/Snus concoction to vape. If you think the snus-infused PG contained the alkaloids or not?

 

[kinabaloo]

Hey Kristin! Kin developed a great theory on "what is missing", that we're not so much addicted to nicotine as to smoking. If that's the case, simply shoveling nicotine into a smoker won't replicate the smoking experience sufficiently to assure easy quitting.

DVap took it from there and extracted and purified some liquid containing whole tobacco alkaloids. As they say, so far, so good. It seems to be a great improvement over "high nicotine" e-liquids.

If this is all correct, then it might also explain the dismal failure rate of Big Pharma's NRT products. It's not a single drug/chemical that is needed; it's the full spectrum in support of the major addictive chemical.

A reason I find this plausible is my own need for snus, Stonewall and nasal snuff. All are tobacco products, but aren't smoked or produce smoke. What they do have in common is that none are processed to remove tobacco alkaloids. I like e-smoking -- don't get me wrong -- but it has never fully satisfied me. I get far more overall satisfaction from the others.

(I ran out of Java Stonewall two days ago and thought I'd just keep using snus, e-cigs, etc. Ha. I was speeding to the tobacco store within four hours. Love Stonewall.)

I'm looking forward to results from the next round of WTA testing. If all of this is correct, NRT products need reformulation. And it wouldn't be difficult to do. This could revolutionize the quit-smoking effort.

Nice Summary TBob.

It's only the psychoactives already in tobacco, minus nearly all the harmful stuff, and particularly the combustion products (worst of all, by far).

Yes, NRTs should have the more effective formula too, at least for a second-line range of products.

 

[kinabaloo]

I read a recent posting that the nic inhaler was 3rd, taking 30 min for full effect.
I think they referred the NZ study as well. I find that hard to believe considering the method of delivery and tissue involved.

With e-cigs some of the vapor will be reconsed into PG or VG droplets, but some will arrive as vapor, whereas with inhalers it's all cold mist (all droplets).

 

[kinabaloo]

Hey, Vaporer, you're looking svelt these days. I have some questions I'd like to direct to you, but I should probably wait until after round #2. Wanted to say "Hey", though.

kin, can you explain this:~~~

btw, The ability of GABA to alleviate cravings is worthy of note in its own right. no need for the patentable vinyl form used in the study; real GABA would almost certainly do the same, without taking a chance with vinyl toxicity.
__________________
Maybe I'm not comprehending right now ( ok, still) but, when you say "real GABA" you're talking about the off-the-shelf stuff at "Judy's Healthy Life" or wherever, right? Mind spinning....(easy, boy)....trying to understand....(clinch).....

I can't give a good answer atm. It might be that the vinyl form of GABA can cross the blood-brain barrier easier; seems unlikely but that could be the reason for the use of that binary compound, as opposed to just have a patentable form.

Rat studies showed dramatic craving decrease (of the form of there being reduced pleasure in consuming nic), but not sure how it was administered (from memory).

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

That's the comfort I was gravitating to, Elf, thanks for the input . As a recovering alcoholic I'm familiar with the associated physical and psychological withdrawl and my heart has gone out to some I've known who attempt, but don't succeed in, a recovery program for ...... . For them, the depths of addiction was too deep to climb out of, regardless of the treatment. The best they could hope for was transition to another, less ruthless drug prescribed by a doctor and use as directed. Sadly, I think many of us addicted to tobacco could be in the same boat. In my case, the symptoms of depression are all too clear, as with many others here, and time only makes it more frustrating, not better. This tells me that, like a ...... addict, I'll more than likely always need something to keep a balanced mental state. I'll be riding it out for a while 'cause I know all I have to do is start smoking, again. But that said, I'm hardheaded enough to keep kicking the stones over along the road to see if I find any gold .

 

[kinabaloo]

Sorry to be away so much of late. Way too much work...thank God for the nic!

BPs for these pure substances are missleading in the context of vaping a mostly PG or VG solution of them. The boiling of these vehicles themselves will push these into the gas phase. Each of those tiny droplets we call vapor are in fact solutions of nic in PG or VG. Its like a big person getting caught up in a stampeding crowd of midgets (no offense to the big people or midgets out there! ). Everything is flying off of the surface of the juice as it boils. Sure, large high bp molecules will be more likely to be left behind than VG or PG molecules, but there will be plenty in the vapor. And if they are an oil at room temp, and miscible with PG or VG, even more so, no matter the bp. Clove oil (eugenol) has a high bp, but you can make it vaporize along with ethanol (bp 78 C).

If it dissolves, it will more than likely vape, at least to some extent. And adding water or vodka to the juice lowers its bp a lot. Molecules do not have to feel the temp of their bp's to go into the gas phase. This is why I refer to PG and VG as the vehicle.

Yes of course the bp is only an indicator of likelihood (this is old hat now, simple stuff; but cannot explain how anything with no bp will get out). Yes, some non-vaporisables will be spat out (as I said before), but most of anything that was not vaporisable, and certainly those that remained solid at the operature temp range, or decomposed, would be lost.

Mostly there is a vapor (gas) phase before recondensing to mist. But as I said before, with a certain amount of spitting out of mist. I postulated that this might be quite significant given the very low value for the liquid pressure (low volume of liquid).

On the other hand, this less calm scenario implies greater temp variation at the minute scale, and doubtless contributes to greater decomp loss than could be the case. There's a tradeoff between these two, and my guess is that the optimum is not far from what we have now, if stick with a heater coil. (Preventing temp rise when dry would still be very important advance though.)

In normal condition boiling - in a kettle say - dissolved solids do not get into the steam in any meaningful quantity. But I proposed that the atty provides some unusual conditions. Whereas you try to bend the rules of physics, I have ideas how seemingly unlikely phenomena can be explained by the science; just need to consider the details; expansion pressure from liquid arriving on a preheated coil and with little liquid pressure to resist that expansion.

Anyway, my research shows that the alkaloids of interest will vape easily (easier than nic). So aprt from some expected loss, perhaps by oxidation (going on the nic figures), looking good.

 

[IANAN]

Ianan - what was your pre-testing daily tobacco cigarette consumption?

Also, I've been reading your updates, but somewhere I missed the reference to "cat's claw?" What is that exactly - the method you're using or a particular substance? I understood you were taking some kind of supplements, eating chocolate and increasing coffee, correct?

I was in the suppliments section at the store today and found myself looking for something called "cats claw," lol!

20-15 a day and on good days 5 with vaping. 40-60+ before vaping.

Post 501 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...we-getting-we-not-nicotine-51.html#post728874

The idea is to use dietary changes and relatively safe herbs to treat the symptoms of Tobacco addiction while using Nicotine. This is an alternative to creating a synthetic analog or using whole tobacco alkaloids.

I have 4 Tx conditions - a different set of herbs each week. Cat's Claw + 4 cups of coffee and 2 servings of chocolate is the Tx for week 1.

Cat's claw was hypothesized to be one of the weakest at subsiding cravings but beneficial to the GI system where as coffee and chocolate alone was hypothesized to be somewhat effective at treating the symptoms.

If you are in the herbal store look for Passion Flower instead of Cat's Claw.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I can't give a good answer atm. It might be that the vinyl form of GABA can cross the blood-brain barrier easier; seems unlikely but that could be the reason for the use of that binary compound, as opposed to just have a patentable form.

Rat studies showed dramatic craving decrease (of the form of there being reduced pleasure in consuming nic), but not sure how it was administered (from memory).

Thanks, kin. I'm on a journey to see what I find. Anything toxic I'll try to report back .

 

[kinabaloo]

I may not understand it completely, but, with the additional alkaloids to help, maybe people wouldn't need as much nicotine anyway?

Indeed. That's an additional 'saving' of perhaps 20%. But the interesting thing is: people probably do vape more in search of the elusive effect, but there are also grounds to suggest that high nic intake can partially substitute for the missing alkaloids; only partially mind, but higher dose nic does give something of a relaxation effect. But a poor substitute at the end of the day.

 

[kinabaloo]

That's the comfort I was gravitating to, Elf, thanks for the input . As a recovering alcoholic I'm familiar with the associated physical and psychological withdrawl and my heart has gone out to some I've known who attempt, but don't succeed in, a recovery program for ...... . For them, the depths of addiction was too deep to climb out of, regardless of the treatment. The best they could hope for was transition to another, less ruthless drug prescribed by a doctor and use as directed. Sadly, I think many of us addicted to tobacco could be in the same boat. In my case, the symptoms of depression are all too clear, as with many others here, and time only makes it more frustrating, not better. This tells me that, like a ...... addict, I'll more than likely always need something to keep a balanced mental state. I'll be riding it out for a while 'cause I know all I have to do is start smoking, again. But that said, I'm hardheaded enough to keep kicking the stones over along the road to see if I find any gold .

Smileys 2 - Sad faces 1

 

[rickghouse]

A lot of the numbers are in an article called

"The Less Harmful Cigarette: A Controversial Issue.
A Tribute to Ernst L. Wynder"

The article is here The less harmful cigarette: a controversial issue.... [Chem Res Toxicol. 2001] - PubMed result

And full text can be found here; http://www.starscientific.com/404/Hoffmann Article.pdf

Thanks, IANAN ... the article has a lot of information. However, it seems to fall short on the alkaloids:

Compound ............... ug/cigarette
nicotine .................. 100-3000
nornicotine .............. 5-150
anatabine ................ 5-15
anabastine ............... 5-12
other alkaloids .......... n.a.

I found another interesting site here.



Tobacco pyridine alkaloids
................................. Burley .........................Flue-cured
..................Average (mg/g)RSD% (n = 5) Average (mg/g)RSD% (n = 5)
Nicotine ..............45.29 ....... 3.8 ...................... 20.22 ...... 3.4
Nornicotine ..........0.745 ....... 5.5 ...................... 0.102 ...... 0.7
Anabasine ........... 0.229 ....... 1.4 ..................... 0.0933 ..... 1.3
Anatabine ........... 1.196 ....... 5.1 .................... 0.798 ....... 6.2
2,3′-bipyridyl ....... 0.0546 ..... 5.5 .................... 0.0188 ...... 3.0
Cotinine .............. 0.0497 ..... 1.2 .................... 0.0124 ...... 6.8

But looking at the vast difference in proportions of alkaloids between Burley and Flu-cured tobacco, I'm beginning to think I might be barking up the wrong tree. I've been looking for the correct proportions of the top few alkaloids, but it seems there are no correct proportions!

Maybe the answer would be "throw as many as possible in the mix" without focusing so much on quantities?



Rick.

 

[rickghouse]

Doing a web search will surely reveal more values, for the full 'real' info
someone might have to purchase some papers though.

Yes, that's what I'm finding.

The problem is, they want me to purchase the reports first, and then find out if they contain the information that I'm looking for!



Rick.

 

[IANAN]

anabasine, anatabine, myosmine, cotinine, harman and norharman have had animal studies done that would support they are involved in additional reinforcement of the nicotine.

Nornicotine and Acetaldehyde also have animal studies done that would suggest additive and/or synergistic effects with nicotine but both are very likely carcinogens also based on animal and human data.

Different curing (And blending) methods create different tasting tobacco- so yes it does effect it. You are seeing differing values because there are different blends of tobacco (24+ types) and curing methods based on the brand of cigarette.

 

[kinabaloo]

anabasine, anatabine, myosmine, cotinine, harman and norharman have had animal studies done that would support they are involved in additional reinforcement of the nicotine.

Nornicotine and Acetaldehyde also have animal studies done that would suggest additive and/or synergistic effects with nicotine but both are very likely carcinogens also based on animal and human data.

Different curing (And blending) methods create different tasting tobacco- so yes it does effect it. You are seeing differing values because there are different blends of tobacco (24+ types) and curing methods based on the brand of cigarette.

Agree. But want to add this:

Tobacco curing and HCA levels

A look at the figures suggests that the main effect of curing on this subset of alkaloids (the most predominant) is the oxidative conversion of nornicotine to cotinine. That sounds good but there is the possibility that unlisted HCAs might be increased by curing. This needs to be checked and brought into consideration too if indeed the case (in selecting best tobacco for WTA). That the anatabine and anabasine hold up or even increase slightly in % terms suggests this could be happening; while these alkaloids are desirable, most of the HCAs produced by heating are not.

* While Burley tobacco is cured ('air cured'), it is a drying without extra heating.

 

[kinabaloo]

Glycation and Aging (an aside, but important piece of biochemistry)

HCAs are one type of AGE (Advanced Glycation End-products) - basically reactions of carbohydrates/sugars and proteins; in the body this mechanism creates irreversible products from amino acids that are part of our cells, that often crosslink and render increasing amounts of our tissues non-functional; brain plaques might be an example (the most obvious symptom of glycation is the loss of skin tone as we get older). Together with oxidative damage (is also involved in AGE creation), DNA damage and falling hormone levels (the last two partly 'preprogrammed' but rate/extent controlled by diet and lifestyle (environment)), it is one of the main mechanisms by which we get old. While most AGEs are formed in the cells of the body, external consumption is not desirable as many preformed AGEs are mutagenic.

 

[Vaporer]

Ianan, something that might be of benefit with your approach.

Smoking &Tobacco Use:
Bananas can also help people trying to give up smoking. The B6, B12 they contain, as well as the potassium and magnesium found in them, help the body recover from the effects of nicotine withdrawal.

Depression: According to a recent survey undertaken by MIND amongst people suffering from depression, many felt much better after eating a banana. This is because bananas contain tryptophan, a type of protein that the body converts into serotonin, known to make you relax, improve your mood and generally make you feel happier.