So here's the problem with the media and America.

[swampergene]

I agree folks, but it is something we often state that is not entirely true, just making that point. The allergy thing with flavoring components is a real issue for a lot of people, so it's really beneficial from our end to avoid bad first impressions.

 

[WhiteHighlights]

aikanae1, I like your list.

How do we get the message heard loud and clear that it's about health and saving lives? (don't answer that, it's just a focal point for my wandering thoughts).

I've been musing on the issue of Zohydro. I'm from MA where the governor exercised exec privilege to declare a health care emergency and ban Zohydro. I caught part of a discussion with him about it on the radio and did a little research and found this article in Forbes The FDA's Dilemma With The Opioid Pain Medication Zohydro ER - Forbes

I see a parallel to ecigs. Following the precautionary principle, the FDA advisory board voted 11-2 against approving it fearing the drug could be misused, but the FDA went ahead and approved it anyway. Our governor falls into the precautionary camp and no surprise Congress is making noise. On the other hand, someone who supported the approval of the drug said

Although these drugs have significant abuse potential, that does not negate the fact that there are significant numbers of people suffering chronic pain who cannot live a functional – or even a remotely tolerable – life without them.

Think about the number of smokers and the potential harm reduction, the reduction in chronic illness (COPD, emphysema) and death. The cynic in me understands why the FDA went ahead and approved Zohydro and doesn't believe it was for the benefit of those suffering chronic pain. That's sad and infuriating.

In my dreams the FDA would take a similar stand on ecigs for the right reasons - the risks are nominal and manageable (i.e. child proof caps) and the health benefits are significant to the user. Instead, we have a lot of people and the media making a lot of noise based on a heavy handed application of the precautionary principle rather than a taking the time to research and understand the information that's available. That's sad and depressing.

BTW - I hope it's ok to keep the link to the article. It is a discussion of a legal pain medication. If not, please let me know and I will break the link.

 

[Steamix]

tl;dr ....

common in the world today. attention span next to zero. texts exceeding the lengths of speech bubbles are doomed already. running the risk of being viewed as 'strange' when managing to sit still for a single minute without frantically tapping and swiping on your smartphone or tablet... everyone busy...busy being busy...so busy chasing life that 'life' doesn't even have chance catching up with you. always on the move, always on the run. are you running your life ? or is your life running you ? you have my sympathies...

for you are the perfect subject for manipulation, for you can be fed with short slogans...

dictators control the opinion by brute force. dare not to toe the line and you get to write your next editorial in a gulag.

'democracies' control opinion by information overload. so much to read so much to review. chatter. terabytes of chatter. plenty enough to slip in the big fat whopper every now and then...

be thou on your guard...

 

[RobinBanks]

Pardon me if this has been mentioned (no, I didn't read every response on this thread, lol), but did you guys see NPR's brilliant April Fools' Day Joke? This thread made me think of it.

NPR’s April Fool’s Day Prank Was An Absolute Masterpiece

 

[aikanae1]

Thx, I think.

My point is this is a pr war being waged in the media. Playing by those rules, absolute accuracy is not a reguirement. It's an explaination via a "tagline" / advertisment / messaging.

It would be nice if people had more attention span than a gnat; the same if journalist's did more than reissue press releases or if most investigative journalists still had a job. That is unrealistic.

Most people get news via headlines and that's how decisions are made. There's too much going on for them to do much more. The fact they are even aware of a small portion of controversies happening is fortunate, similar to roulette. There are those that capitalize on the confusion generated and that's the battleground we're in and that's what our words need to cut through.

Pretty much any new idea, new technology, new product, new distribution system that challenges legacy industries will be in for a battle and risk being made illegal. Ecigs are no different. It is more cost effective to legislate the marketplace than it is to compete in the marketplace. Most people don't remember that at one time there used to be 'conflict of interest' laws which prevented industry from taking posts in a regulatory agency.

Philosphy, tinfoil conspiracies, extremism, rolling in unrelated topics, name calling, all work against us and are wasted words/energy. Useless. I'm not addressing the controversies surrounding pain meds.

aikanae1, I like your list.

How do we get the message heard loud and clear that it's about health and saving lives? (don't answer that, it's just a focal point for my wandering thoughts).

I've been musing on the issue of Zohydro. I'm from MA where the governor exercised exec privilege to declare a health care emergency and ban Zohydro. I caught part of a discussion with him about it on the radio and did a little research and found this article in Forbes The FDA's Dilemma With The Opioid Pain Medication Zohydro ER - Forbes

I see a parallel to ecigs. Following the precautionary principle, the FDA advisory board voted 11-2 against approving it fearing the drug could be misused, but the FDA went ahead and approved it anyway. Our governor falls into the precautionary camp and no surprise Congress is making noise. On the other hand, someone who supported the approval of the drug said

Think about the number of smokers and the potential harm reduction, the reduction in chronic illness (COPD, emphysema) and death. The cynic in me understands why the FDA went ahead and approved Zohydro and doesn't believe it was for the benefit of those suffering chronic pain. That's sad and infuriating.

In my dreams the FDA would take a similar stand on ecigs for the right reasons - the risks are nominal and manageable (i.e. child proof caps) and the health benefits are significant to the user. Instead, we have a lot of people and the media making a lot of noise based on a heavy handed application of the precautionary principle rather than a taking the time to research and understand the information that's available. That's sad and depressing.

BTW - I hope it's ok to keep the link to the article. It is a discussion of a legal pain medication. If not, please let me know and I will break the link.

 

[aikanae1]

This makes me think of Samuel Jackson's slam poetry on YouTube. It's not about vaping, but he delivers it while vaping. It's a very good watch.

tl;dr ....

common in the world today. attention span next to zero. texts exceeding the lengths of speech bubbles are doomed already. running the risk of being viewed as 'strange' when managing to sit still for a single minute without frantically tapping and swiping on your smartphone or tablet... everyone busy...busy being busy...so busy chasing life that 'life' doesn't even have chance catching up with you. always on the move, always on the run. are you running your life ? or is your life running you ? you have my sympathies...

for you are the perfect subject for manipulation, for you can be fed with short slogans...

dictators control the opinion by brute force. dare not to toe the line and you get to write your next editorial in a gulag.

'democracies' control opinion by information overload. so much to read so much to review. chatter. terabytes of chatter. plenty enough to slip in the big fat whopper every now and then...

be thou on your guard...

 

[AveryW]

Pardon me if this has been mentioned (no, I didn't read every response on this thread, lol), but did you guys see NPR's brilliant April Fools' Day Joke? This thread made me think of it.

NPR’s April Fool’s Day Prank Was An Absolute Masterpiece

This is golden. Lol.

Sent from my GS3

 

[WhiteHighlights]

Thx, I think.

My point is this is a pr war being waged in the media. Playing by those rules, absolute accuracy is not a reguirement. It's an explaination via a "tagline" / advertisment / messaging.

It would be nice if people had more attention span than a gnat; the same if journalist's did more than reissue press releases or if most investigative journalists still had a job. That is unrealistic.

Most people get news via headlines and that's how decisions are made. There's too much going on for them to do much more. The fact they are even aware of a small portion of controversies happening is fortunate, similar to roulette. There are those that capitalize on the confusion generated and that's the battleground we're in and that's what our words need to cut through.

Pretty much any new idea, new technology, new product, new distribution system that challenges legacy industries will be in for a battle and risk being made illegal. Ecigs are no different. It is more cost effective to legislate the marketplace than it is to compete in the marketplace. Most people don't remember that at one time there used to be 'conflict of interest' laws which prevented industry from taking posts in a regulatory agency.

Philosphy, tinfoil conspiracies, extremism, rolling in unrelated topics, name calling, all work against us and are wasted words/energy. Useless. I'm not addressing the controversies surrounding pain meds.

aikanae1, I think we agree to a large extent.

I agree the media is selling fear/uncertainty/doubt as a way of doing business to garner headlines and many neglect to do their homework to get the facts.

I wasn't trying to derail the discussion into pain meds but rather draw a what seemed to be relevant parallel (health vs safety) with a specific example that is getting attention locally and also to highlight the contradictions and implications in decision making. IMHO the precautionary principle gets applied excessively as misinformed/under-informed people jump on the latest band wagon (it's bad so ban it). Even armed with information, there has to be thought given to weighing the risk/benefit.

I agree with your 2nd to last sentence but respectfully don't think I went that far afield. MA has a long record of insider political dealings which adds to my admittedly cynical view of government. I've come to question motivations regularly and my skepticism leads to a search for more information beyond the headlines. I try to minimize my use of tinfoil.

 

[Kent C]

Most people don't remember that at one time there used to be 'conflict of interest' laws which prevented industry from taking posts in a regulatory agency.

It's not that 'most people don't remember', it's most people don't actually know the history. The first regulatory agency was the ICC set up in 1887 to regulate railroads. But the man President Cleveland chose as the first ICC chairman, Thomas M. Cooley, was a railroad ally. As the trucking industry (railroads competition) grew, later, ex-trucking company execs got seats on the commission.

And while many agencies have had retired execs from the industry they are regulating, there has also been many 'consumer advocates' who have their own biases toward increasing gov't control - Carol Browner (EPA), Joan Claybrook (NHTSTA) from "Public Citizen" group, eg., where many of their policies have also ended up hurting the consumer they purport to protect. And although the 'wording' in the documents that create these agencies have the 'obligatory' "no conflict of interest" clauses, reality sets in shortly after.

The first FDA chairman, Harvey Washington Wiley, was also such an 'advocate'. wiki - "Wiley was appropriated $5,000 in 1902 to study the effects of a diet consisting in part of the various preservatives on human volunteers. These famous "poison squad" studies drew national attention to the need for a federal food and drug law. Wiley soon became a crusader and coalition builder in support of national food and drug regulation."

Now we have new 'poison squads" Glantz, Prue Talbot et. al.

 

[aikanae1]

This is the problem with thinking people, any issue gets expanded. My comments weren't directed at history, anyone in particular, or a state and not even accuracy. The media is a tool. The gov't is a tool. The bills and spin are crafted by corporate lawyers and marketing execs into 2 second headline grabbers much like an advertising campaign. Everyone else nods their heads "yes".

My list is far from perfect. All I was saying is that it might be nice to have a list of sound bite ready statements to throw into comments, letters, conversations, postings about the subject of ecigs. I'm sure a lot of people could tweak some of the things I listed into something that sounds better and there's probably quite a few points I missed.

 

[idahohermit]

Just a little O/T (sorry), but still relevant to our fight.

http://iacknowledge.net/its-official-nobody-in-power-cares-what-you-think-unless-youre-rich/

" A.political organization contacted 191 congressional offices requesting meetings to discuss a pending bill..The organization’s members were randomly identified either as constituents or as campaign donors. Of the people identified as donors, 19% got meetings with the member of Congress.or a top staffer, but only 5% of those identified.as constituents (not as donors) got similar access."

Depressing......

 

[Kent C]

First, I like your list, your posts and much of the intent and content. However..

My comments weren't directed at history...

When you say: "people don't remember that at one time..." ...you're talking history. And that history didn't match the 'no conflict of interest' ideal. I wish it did and wish it would now, but sadly, it's not the case and frankly, never was.

 

[aikanae1]

Sad but probably very true.

Just a little O/T (sorry), but still relevant to our fight.

It’s Official: Nobody in Power Cares What You Think Unless You’re Rich | I Acknowledge

" A.political organization contacted 191 congressional offices requesting meetings to discuss a pending bill..The organization’s members were randomly identified either as constituents or as campaign donors. Of the people identified as donors, 19% got meetings with the member of Congress.or a top staffer, but only 5% of those identified.as constituents (not as donors) got similar access."

Depressing......

 

[Little White Cloud]

And then they wonder why people say they they are out of touch with the mainstream right?

 

[rothenbj]

Just a little O/T (sorry), but still relevant to our fight.

It’s Official: Nobody in Power Cares What You Think Unless You’re Rich | I Acknowledge

" A.political organization contacted 191 congressional offices requesting meetings to discuss a pending bill..The organization’s members were randomly identified either as constituents or as campaign donors. Of the people identified as donors, 19% got meetings with the member of Congress.or a top staffer, but only 5% of those identified.as constituents (not as donors) got similar access."

Depressing......

Constituents only have meaning during the congressperson's election year, Major donors have access at will.

 

[AveryW]

Well that's the thing, the more money you have, the more power you have. It's crucial for any one in power to have as many rich and powerful on there side. The rich decide the elections and every thing that they think is best for us. The only way we have any sort of say is in very large numbers.

Sent from my GS3

 

[AgentAnia]

Aikanae1, your "sound bite" theory worked for me yesterday! My elderly neighbor (She supports my vaping. Her major source of news is fellow riders on our local bus service, that I call "Rumor Central.") came to ask if I'd heard about "all the children being poisoned by ecigs."

Remembering this thread, rather than giving her the long explanation, I gave her a sound bite: "Tell your friends this: 1. They're not talking about poisonings, but about CALLS TO POISON CONTROL HOTLINES. Not the same thing. 2. Calls re ecigs, 200+. Calls re toothpaste, 20,000+." Repeated this to her several times and had her repeat it back till she got it right.

I left her with "Go forth and spread the truth!" She left satisfied and with a mission.

I think you're on to something!

 

[patkin]

I agree folks, but it is something we often state that is not entirely true, just making that point. The allergy thing with flavoring components is a real issue for a lot of people, so it's really beneficial from our end to avoid bad first impressions.

I understand what you're saying but have you ever read the ingredients on food products? They do not break down the elements of flavorings. They simply state "flavoring" and some spin it "natural and other flavorings." A separate labeling standard for ejuice, going beyond that required for foods, is discriminatory in my view. People have allergies and they are the exception, not the rule, and to expect eeeeverything and eeeevery eventuality to be incorporated into labeling is exactly what has gotten us into the arm-long labeling mess we already have. Labeling for the majority is sufficient in my view and I have food and other allergies. Managing them is a personal responsibility that requires me to contact the manufacturer if I'm in doubt or have questions and is why most labels contain urls or phone numbers which my ejuices include just like food products. This should be the response to ANTZ bringing up the subject of flavorings pointing out their obvious irrationality as well as negative propaganda agenda.

 

[Kent C]

Aikanae1, your "sound bite" theory worked for me yesterday! My elderly neighbor (She supports my vaping. Her major source of news is fellow riders on our local bus service, that I call "Rumor Central.") came to ask if I'd heard about "all the children being poisoned by ecigs."

Remembering this thread, rather than giving her the long explanation, I gave her a sound bite: "Tell your friends this: 1. They're not talking about poisonings, but about CALLS TO POISON CONTROL HOTLINES. Not the same thing. 2. Calls re ecigs, 200+. Calls re toothpaste, 20,000+." Repeated this to her several times and had her repeat it back till she got it right.

I left her with "Go forth and spread the truth!" She left satisfied and with a mission.

I think you're on to something!

Me too. I think Aikanae1's list should be a sticky in the New Member's forum (... in fact I put that in a report to admin. We'll see...) Or perhaps just posted there with a suggestion to add some more good sound bites, so it might continue to the top of the thread. (no one reads stickies :- ) Unlike most of us, newbies are likely being barraged with all the new poisonous comments and questions.

 

[aikanae1]

Golden rule: You can't debate crazy by using logic. You just have to sound "less crazy". Humor helps. So do short, easy to understand statements in plain english.

What are they really saying? Your neighbor was worried about you and she wanted reassurance, something already "pre-digested". Not history or theory or science or any other mind expanding information. Vaping probably isn't on her top 100 things to worry about. You obviously are on her list (awwww).

I don't think reporters or politicans are that much different when it comes to wanting pre-digested versions. They don't want to figure it out either. They want to get on with their day and they need to know what to write / say to do that.

A short clever / funny line usually gets repeated. Oh yea, that's what we want them to do.

Like I said, IMO the list is far from perfect. It's a start. There's things that need smoothing out and probably a bunch more that could be added.

My thought was to have quick statements ready on every topic ANTZ throws out. Then add a few more of our own about the positives of vaping (no wild or house fires) they haven't thought of yet. I know I'd like to put them on the defense.

Aikanae1, your "sound bite" theory worked for me yesterday! My elderly neighbor (She supports my vaping. Her major source of news is fellow riders on our local bus service, that I call "Rumor Central.") came to ask if I'd heard about "all the children being poisoned by ecigs."

Remembering this thread, rather than giving her the long explanation, I gave her a sound bite: "Tell your friends this: 1. They're not talking about poisonings, but about CALLS TO POISON CONTROL HOTLINES. Not the same thing. 2. Calls re ecigs, 200+. Calls re toothpaste, 20,000+." Repeated this to her several times and had her repeat it back till she got it right.

I left her with "Go forth and spread the truth!" She left satisfied and with a mission.

I think you're on to something!