Stainless Steel mesh, Oxide discussion.

[Projectguy]

Don't count me out yet. First, i'm going to research hemp and cotton as alternatives- but eventually, yes, I do want to quit entirely. Before that happens, I would like to try and help people transition to something less potentially hazardous, if possible!

Before committing Sepuku part of your research might include the First Zen~ thread. I hearing that Mike did some research on things including SS mesh as wicking material.

 

[junkman]

Before committing Sepuku part of your research might include the First Zen~ thread. I hearing that Mike did some research on things including SS mesh as wicking material.

Can you provide help finding that thread? Searching for Zen/stainless steel wick/etc turns up way too much for me to sort through.

 

[NayrTrawe]

I read through this entire thread and the thought that kept popping into my head was, how could no one have thought of this already? There are so many incredibly intelligent and resourceful people on here, plus the actual designers/manufacturers who make these devices, that I have a hard time believing that they all overlooked this. However, I am still a bit freaked out and looking forward to reviewing some definitive evidence once the results are in. Even if this turns out to be nothing to worry about I am glad it came up nonetheless.

 

[Bmays]

I have my doubts that much if any negative will be confirmed from this but yes, good to cover it and get it out in the open. I honestly think the ss mesh was due to be replaced by a better solution anyway.

 

[j4mmin42]

Before committing Sepuku part of your research might include the First Zen~ thread. I hearing that Mike did some research on things including SS mesh as wicking material.

LOL!

I guess you missed my post about being proactive and trying to find an alternative wicking material

I'll give it a look.

 

[Projectguy]

Can you provide help finding that thread? Searching for Zen/stainless steel wick/etc turns up way too much for me to sort through.

That first thread is a monster but I will dive in for the greater good. If I'm not back in a couple of [insert time frame] somebody feed my dog.

 

[Projectguy]

I read through this entire thread and the thought that kept popping into my head was, how could no one have thought of this already? There are so many incredibly intelligent and resourceful people on here, plus the actual designers/manufacturers who make these devices, that I have a hard time believing that they all overlooked this. However, I am still a bit freaked out and looking forward to reviewing some definitive evidence once the results are in. Even if this turns out to be nothing to worry about I am glad it came up nonetheless.

Before I trundle of to the first Zen~ thread I think we should all take a valium or three, a deep breath and vape if so inclined.

Yes I have never met such a group of resourceful and smart people BUT let us not PLEASE forget the SCIENTIFIC METHOD:

Step 1: Make Observations. You may think the hypothesis is the start of the scientific method, but you will have made some observations first, even if they were informal.

Step 2: Propose a Hypothesis. It's easist to test the null or no-difference hypothesis because you can prove it to be wrong. It's practically impossible to prove a hypothesis is correct.

Step 3: Design an Experiment to Test the Hypothesis.

$200 a pop for lab tests.

Step 4: Test the Hypothesis

Step 5: Accept or Reject the Hypothesis

Step 6: Revise the Hypothesis (Rejected) or Draw Conclusions (Accepted)

We are not even complete with hypothesis yet and we are running around like Chicken Little (you're all too young so I won't even try to explain) pronouncing "SS wicking is dead long live whatever we'll figure it out when we get there" wicking.

REMEMBER: The FDA hung us out on junk science not do it to ourselves

 

[NayrTrawe]

I have my doubts that much if any negative will be confirmed from this but yes, good to cover it and get it out in the open. I honestly think the ss mesh was due to be replaced by a better solution anyway.

Can't wait to see what material that might be. I have my doubts about ceramic because of how fragile it is, plus safety concerns have been voiced about it as well.

I have been thinking of a different delivery system that would eliminate the need for a wick entirely but I don't have any way to test it out, unfortunately. I have no idea if this would work but I envision a hybrid device that drips liquid directly onto a coil without any filler or wick when a button is pressed. The coil would need to be low resistance so it would heat up immediately and vaporize liquid as soon as it made contact. The device would allow you to select how much liquid is used with each button press (variable flow), and it would recycle any liquid that dripped off the coil to eliminate flooding. I think this would make for a much easier setup since you wouldn't need to wrap anything - the kanthal would just need to to stretch across the gap that the liquid drips into. I really wish I was handy because I would love to make something like this myself.

Sorry for going off-topic!

 

[BJ43]

Can't wait to see what material that might be. I have my doubts about ceramic because of how fragile it is, plus safety concerns have been voiced about it as well.

I have been thinking of a different delivery system that would eliminate the need for a wick entirely but I don't have any way to test it out, unfortunately. I have no idea if this would work but I envision a hybrid device that drips liquid directly onto a coil without any filler or wick when a button is pressed. The coil would need to be low resistance so it would heat up immediately and vaporize liquid as soon as it made contact. The device would allow you to select how much liquid is used with each button press (variable flow), and it would recycle any liquid that dripped off the coil to eliminate flooding. I think this would make for a much easier setup since you wouldn't need to wrap anything - the kanthal would just need to to stretch across the gap that the liquid drips into. I really wish I was handy because I would love to make something like this myself.

Sorry for going off-topic!

Marlboro lighters can be easily modded with a drip tip, I did a few as emergency units if my main quit.

 

[NayrTrawe]

Marlboro lighters can be easily modded with a drip tip, I did a few as emergency units if my main quit.

Well, there you go! If only I could add some kind of liquid pumping system to a mod and have it drip onto something like that - now that would be progress (I think)!

 

[burnie71]

Another good question what is the solubility of chromium in our fluid. Probablly very minimal. I will look this up as well.

UPDATE: Okay. Just some data to mull over. These are only single sources from the net, but seem reliable. Not some random dude's site, rather chemical sites / manufacture sites.

1. Chromium (VI) oxide is an example of an excellently water soluble chromium compounds, solubility = 1680 g/L.

Here is the source: Chromium (Cr) and water

2. Im using SS 316 L: Good oxidation resistance in intermittent service to 870°C and in continuous service to 925°C. Continuous use of 316 in the 425-860°C range is not recommended if subsequent aqueous corrosion resistance is important. Grade 316L is more resistant to carbide precipitation and can be used in the above temperature range. Grade 316H has higher strength at elevated temperatures and is sometimes used for structural and pressure-containing applications at temperatures above about 500°C.

Here is the source: Stainless Steel - Grade 316 - Properties, Fabrication and Applications

3. A propane torch is a tool for burning the flammable gas propane (C3H8). The maximum adiabatic flame temperature a propane torch can achieve with air is 2,268 kelvins (1,995 °C/3,623 °F)

Here is the source: Propane torch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore, it seems to me, when we oxidize these SS meshes (at least 316L) we are MOST LIKELY depositing a highly soluble compound that our liquids are a solvent for since they are at least partially water.

It seems as if there is conflicting information in regards to water solubility of Chromium Oxide, here is the link to the MDS of Chromium Oxide. Not just some dudes site, but a scientific MDS. Your link to Chromium and water has me in a bit of confusion as it seems to refer more about Chromium lll. Please note bottom of page 3 of MDS for information on solubility.
Is there a chemist in the house to offer an answer please. Link http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923471

 

[FarmYard]

so what about dry hit on cartos?if that batting burns enough times from dry hits is the rest of the carto going to be giving off the same as a genesis style with oxidized mesh?the goal is to be inhaling as least amounts of carcinogens as possible if any.what about rolling a ss wick and at the top where the coil goes wrapping strands of muslin unbleached cotton around the ss until there is no contact between the ss and the kanthal. then we still get the wicking of the ss. im going to try one right now and see how it works.

 

[comptechltd]

Not to .... in here but I thought I read in a thread somewhere about a ceramic mesh or wrap that you can place around the SS mesh. If I recall correctly it was almost paper thin and would require no oxidizing the wick. This might solve the problem. I'm looking but I can't remember where it was right now.

Steve

 

[burnie71]

Not to .... in here but I thought I read in a thread somewhere about a ceramic mesh or wrap that you can place around the SS mesh. If I recall correctly it was almost paper thin and would require no oxidizing the wick. This might solve the problem. I'm looking but I can't remember where it was right now.

Steve

Think this is what your after, its about coating coil I have a couple drying atm. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/362729-ceramic-coated-coil.html

 

[Starik]

I'm scared

 

[Trick]

so what about dry hit on cartos?if that batting burns enough times from dry hits is the rest of the carto going to be giving off the same as a genesis style with oxidized mesh?the goal is to be inhaling as least amounts of carcinogens as possible if any.what about rolling a ss wick and at the top where the coil goes wrapping strands of muslin unbleached cotton around the ss until there is no contact between the ss and the kanthal. then we still get the wicking of the ss. im going to try one right now and see how it works.

I was actually thinking of something along those lines, like a cotton "wick condom" you could slip over it to sit between the wick and the coil, so you wouldn't need any oxidation. Of course, at that point I suppose you might as well just use a cotton wick.

 

[comptechltd]

Think this is what your after, its about coating coil I have a couple drying atm. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/362729-ceramic-coated-coil.html

No that wasn't it (Although the concept is interesting). What I saw was on a roll and looked similar to SS Mesh. I am almost positive they were talking about putting one wrap around the SS wick.

Steve

 

[FarmYard]

here it is, i have had a few vapes and it is pretty good no hot spots,and it wicks quite well.it does taste a little different but that is to be expected. 30 awg kanthal with 400 ss.1.5 ohm coil on my ihybrid.

 

[kiwivap]

I want to know what Chromium Oxides are forming on the different grades of SS and at what temperatures.

I do know that when heated above 710degF the chromium starts to oxidize preferentially. When doing hot work on SS it is common OSHA standard that when welding, cutting and heating SS, ventilation must be used to prevent Chromium Oxide inhalation. Inhalation is the primary entry for chromium oxides and Hexavalent chromium is recognized as a human carcinogen via inhalation.^[2]

I am really hoping that the Chromium only reaches CRIII and not the more dangerous CR(V) and CR(VI). Based on the tutorials I have seen that heat the SS to glowing red 1500degF I am a bit worried . http://www.smex.net.au/reference/steelcolours.htm


Hexavalent chromium can also be formed when performing "hot work" such as welding on stainless steel or melting chromium metal. In these situations the chromium is not originally hexavalent, but the high temperatures involved in the process result in oxidation that converts the chromium to a hexavalent state.

Hi Boden,
Thanks for putting the time and thought into this. The question I have is whether hexavalent chromium would result from some light torching of a wick. From what you've posted I would have a concern about torching a wick to red hot, but I'm thinking a light flame pass over wouldn't be an issue. Will the lab tests have a comparison gradient to check that out? I'm thinking it may allay some concerns about the wicks in general.

 

[kiwivap]

Chromium VI [Cr (VI)]

Within the respiratory tract, chromium (VI) is reduced in the epithelial-lining fluid, pulmonary alveolar macrophages, bronchial tree and peripheral lung parenchyma cells. Hence, lung cancer can only be induced when chromium (VI) doses overwhelm these defense mechanisms.

It is the byproducts of the reduction (.OH radicals/free radicals) that do the damage.

From the same site you posted...

I had seen the articles you posted above, and felt it expanded on the interaction of Cr, but there is lot more going on than just it gets to your cell, reacts with hydrogen peroxide, and poof your in trouble.

Matter of fact, cancer cells are constantly being formed and destroyed in your body. It's the cell mutations that become viable and are not destroyed that can develop into issues.

Hi guys, I just put in the parts I wanted to respond to for the sake of length. Yes, cancer cells are formed and destroyed in the body - and we don't even know its happening. At the same time we don't want to invite free radicals in if we don't need to. They can and do cause DNA damage, which can cause a cell to become cancerous. If, and it is an if, free radicals were being inhaled, then the concern would be if it did in fact overwhelm the respiratory tract defense mechanisms. Since all of those defense mechanisms involve direct cellular responses, bar the epithelial lining fluid, it does make me wonder about the effect on the defense cells themselves.

What is not clear to me though is whether the oxidation of an ss wick is actually causing any troublesome free radical by-products. Having read through the thread I'm thinking that torching a wick red hot may be an issue, although I wouldn't put it in the same category as industrial exposure. Not saying anyone is btw. But lightly burning off the manufacturers fluid wouldn't be an issue as far as I can see.

My concern is as I mentioned, we don't want to invite in free radicals if we can avoid them. Will be interested to see the lab results, and I think if anyone is concerned then don't torch the hell out of your wicks.