Statement from Totally Wicked

[Jixchel]

I think it's more to do with the question as to why TW thought they could be actually justified in threatening legal action against UKV over the "two-way dispute" (as you choose to see it), rather than "fully thinking through" whether it was actually two-way or not...

And the justification of the "ECITA-gate" accusations (in reference to a UKV attack) was also totally bogus IMO.

"two-way dispute (as you choose to see it)" So you do not see this as anyones fault but TW? Now see, this is the kind of mentality that is slowly dragging society down, and I don't just mean forums. This I don't have to accept the responsibility for my own actions, its never my fault thought process kills me. Perhaps you personally did not participate in the mess over at UKV (though you are participating in it here at ECF when it is obvious TW is not as there are no replies from them in this thread) those who did must take equal blame in the closure of that site. TW "may have started it" if you want to go to 5 year old thinking here, but the forum memebers did not have to participate in it.

 

[Toby]

"two-way dispute (as you choose to see it)" So you do not see this as anyones fault but TW? Now see, this is the kind of mentality that is slowly dragging society down, and I don't just mean forums. This I don't have to accept the responsibility for my own actions, its never my fault thought process kills me. Perhaps you personally did not participate in the mess over at UKV (though you are participating in it here at ECF when it is obvious TW is not as there are no replies from them in this thread) those who did must take equal blame in the closure of that site. TW "may have started it" if you want to go to 5 year old thinking here, but the forum memebers did not have to participate in it.

Yes, some posts should not have been made in retaliation which antagonised the situation, I agree.. but nobody's perfect...

Ultimately I still believe that TW's "coming over and picking a fight" (which is the way I see it), and then later response of legal threats was not only unnecessary, but unethical as well.

 

[pho]

"two-way dispute (as you choose to see it)" So you do not see this as anyones fault but TW? Now see, this is the kind of mentality that is slowly dragging society down, and I don't just mean forums. This I don't have to accept the responsibility for my own actions, its never my fault thought process kills me. Perhaps you personally did not participate in the mess over at UKV (though you are participating in it here at ECF when it is obvious TW is not as there are no replies from them in this thread) those who did must take equal blame in the closure of that site. TW "may have started it" if you want to go to 5 year old thinking here, but the forum memebers did not have to participate in it.

Excuse my wording, but what a load of crap.
Of course forum members are going to participate, form opinions, and out them as well, when the ceo of one of the biggest ecig companies is clearly stepping out of bounds with his words and actions. And some people will respond more heavily then others, yes. You cannot expect everyone to have the same kind of moderation in their choosing of words.
You will get the same exact response in "the real life", it is the nature of communities with a variety of people and personalities. The flak Jason got (and is still getting I reckon) for this is a perfectly normal and also expected response from the majority of the ecig community.
I also fail to see how this is "slowly dragging society down", that remark was pretty out there. I literally rolled my eyes when I read that.
Just my 2 cents

 

[minyddol]

I will still do one more shop from TW....i love a closing down sale

 

[DC2]

Of course forum members are going to participate, form opinions, and out them as well, when the ceo of one of the biggest ecig companies is clearly stepping out of bounds with his words and actions. And some people will respond more heavily then others, yes. You cannot expect everyone to have the same kind of moderation in their choosing of words.

I was under the impression that this was supposedly about much more than just the most recent episode.

I've asked the question, and been told that there was not a history of bashing Totally Wicked on the UKVapers forum.
So either there was and people don't want to admit it, or there wasn't and Totally Wicked is being completely and totally unreasonable.

What interests me is whether or not his claims of libel would hold up in court.
In other words, was there really a history of bashing, and if so would that really be grounds for a libel suit.

 

[asha23]

I was under the impression that this was supposedly about much more than just the most recent episode.

I've asked the question, and been told that there was not a history of bashing Totally Wicked on the UKVapers forum.
So either there was and people don't want to admit it, or there wasn't and Totally Wicked is being completely and totally unreasonable.

What interests me is whether or not his claims of libel would hold up in court.
In other words, was there really a history of bashing, and if so would that really be grounds for a libel suit.

I don't think so really.

No more than Arry's PERSONAL OPINION that he thinks that TW products are overpriced crap. That's not libellous. That's an opinion. In my opinion there was nothing on the posts I read that were more than just opinion.

 

[asha23]

"two-way dispute (as you choose to see it)" So you do not see this as anyones fault but TW? Now see, this is the kind of mentality that is slowly dragging society down, and I don't just mean forums. This I don't have to accept the responsibility for my own actions, its never my fault thought process kills me. Perhaps you personally did not participate in the mess over at UKV (though you are participating in it here at ECF when it is obvious TW is not as there are no replies from them in this thread) those who did must take equal blame in the closure of that site. TW "may have started it" if you want to go to 5 year old thinking here, but the forum memebers did not have to participate in it.

Couple of things.

Firstly. I agree that things could have been handled differently. The main one being the CEO of a major e-cig company keeping his mouth shut on a forum. If you want to talk about responsibility. Yes. The people involved at the sharp end of his tirades could have said nothing. And I think if you'd been there yourself, you may have reacted in a similar way... Much as I would expect you to to this post... There is nothing wrong with that.

Secondly. The discussion is ongoing here because it is an interesting one. With all due respect. If you are not interested in the discussion, then you don't have to join in with it.

Thirdly. I take full responsibility for everything I do. Everything I post and everything I say. I'd be a complete jackass if I didn't.

 

[fuzzione]

I was under the impression that this was supposedly about much more than just the most recent episode.

I've asked the question, and been told that there was not a history of bashing Totally Wicked on the UKVapers forum.
So either there was and people don't want to admit it, or there wasn't and Totally Wicked is being completely and totally unreasonable.

What interests me is whether or not his claims of libel would hold up in court.
In other words, was there really a history of bashing, and if so would that really be grounds for a libel suit.

Whether such grounds exist or not is rarely the issue in this type of situation. Legal interpretations and arguments swing both ways and that's what lawyers are for. Rarely do cases such as these ever see an actual courtroom so 'who would have won' often becomes moot; what ususally happens is enormous sums are spent on both sides advancing and defending the case through legal counsel and they're inevitably settled in some manner out of court.

What hurts is the ride. Have you seen what good UK solicitors charge lately? TW could affort the fight, UKV could not and JC would likely be astutely aware of this. Such tactics are used daily in the litigation world. UKV was simply out-muscled and whether or not a genuine case existed for libel doesn't even enter the picture, practically speaking.

Earlier I raised the possibility of insurance coverage for such matters but have seen no comments. It's sad to think that UKV may have only been an insurance policy away from being saved. Liability policies usually offer coverage for legal fees in defence of libel suits.

 

[DC2]

Blu cigarettes get bashed here almost endlessly, just imagine if they decided to shut down this forum.
Of course, they are an American company, so I'm not sure the same threat of libel would hold enough water.

 

[humpty]

Blimey, it's like walking into a bar causing a scene, and then telling the owner that he'd better shut everyone up who even mentions you or else he'd get sued.

 

[Gluggler]

Blimey, it's like walking into a bar causing a scene, and then telling the owner that he'd better shut everyone up who even mentions you or else he'd get sued.

Yes, that is a very good way of summing it up, except that the bar is then closed down as a result.

 

[Chrissie]

Yeah I read that ECITA response too, and it seems rational and correct. JC's source seemed to misquote that communication and hence his gripe. It seems obvious now that the facts are in the open that the personal background to the issues were the driving factor and the rest fanned the flames.

In which case JC/TW really should apologise to ECITA as well.

"Now that the facts are in the open" It might be a good idea if you are also open. From your posts in the new members forum, you have a franchise with e-lites e-cigarettes & they are a founder member of ECITA.

Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not taking sides with TW here - far from it. Just thought the above fact should be brought to light.

Edit to add - In support of UKV, I have unsubscribed from TW & TECC emails.

 

[Gluggler]

"Now that the facts are in the open" It might be a good idea if you are also open. From your posts in the new members forum, you have a franchise with e-lites e-cigarettes & they are a founder member of ECITA.

Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not taking sides with TW here - far from it. Just thought the above fact should be brought to light.

Well I can tell you this for a cast iron fact.

E-lites come in for a hell of a lot more, not just a little bit more, but hundreds of times more of a bashing on the UKV forum than TW ever did. TW even had supporters there, E-lites have none.

I have never, not once ever seen the boss of e-lites logging on to moan and cry his eyes out about it

 

[Chrissie]

I agree Gluggler, e-lites also come in for some bashing on my AAE-C Uk forum.

 

[Ctor]

The reason TW products were picked on it because it was overpriced crap .

Well informed and intellegently posed reviews like the one quoted generally make me want to go to the vendors site and buy stuff. Just sayin... .

 

[SMOKIEEGO]

Crap or Cropper? I don`t buy at TW anymore - hope that hurts enough.

 

[Tom09]

I apologize to the e-cig community for previously having bought some stuff from TW and TECC. Not that I did it regularly, was just when their price tags came back to normal in discount promos. I promise that I won’t feel tempted to do this again. Quite surprising how overly polite and friendly the reaction can be towards someone who apparently just managed to shut off substantial part of the community. But yeah, one might have to hold back for obvious reasons, here.

 

[Huffelpuff]

If your excluding one vendor you have to exclude them all and that would make for a really great general chat forum.

To have a forum on a subject you need to be unbiased and starting to exclude specific subjects is censorship and a nightmare to moderate. I hope the new UKVapers.org starts a fresh and everyone lives happily side by side, giving everyone a fair go.

Leaving aside JC's personal beliefs and attitude, his staff work hard to give his company a good name and reputation, just a shame he comes along to spoil it. the products he sells are on par with any other vendor and he has gone one step further trying to develop a British made device, OK its had it's teething problems but what devices don't, give them a chance to get it right and we could have the start of a great new manufacturing industry taking some business away from the Chinese.

What would you all do if TW became the sole distributer for the GG products, the Provari or Darwin.

I'd quit vaping.

 

[Blueaussie]

This was posted on their forum. It's a bit long though. I am posting this because I believe in freedom of speech.

Firstly let me introduce myself and who I represent. My name is Fraser Cropper.

I am the Business Development Director for Totally Wicked; I am also Jason’s brother. I hold this position either through justified competence acquired from my 27 years as a military officer and a short period working in business development for a FTSE 100 company, or due to patronage. It is for others to decide rather than for me to assert.

I felt compelled to write this note due to recent activity on this and other forums which seem to have rapidly brought to a head an unfortunate long running malevolent undercurrent to our young industry, that of blogs and forums being allowed and in certain cases encouraged to undertaken vicious and libellous attacks on Totally Wicked. Some facts first. The UK Vapours’ Forum chose to stop its operation unilaterally.

It did so after we had made it aware that there was significant evidence of libellous activity against our company. We made it clear its owners and employed moderators were, at best tacitly endorsing, at worst actively encouraging such posts. There was also a clear conflict of interest in moderation of this forum. We asked that no more posts, good or bad, were allowed on this forum that related to Totally Wicked, as we believed that this was the only way to prevent these on-going vicious and illegal attacks on our company. We also made the forum aware that we would be seeking legal advice to seek redress for the effects of this on-going slander and bullying supported by this forum.

To some this may appear excessive and disproportionate, to others the arrogant action of a company that wishes to prevent freedom of speech and employ anti-competitive tactics. I can assure you this is not the case. Indeed, that we allowed these vicious attacks on our company, and that Jason tolerates the level of personal vitriol is I believe testament to our resilience and self-awareness as a company that we did not take such actions sooner, but enough was enough.

I will never work for a company, nor moreover take the formal and legally accountable responsibilities as a company director for a business that engages in protectionist tactics. We are a small hard working company that employs a team of staff that we are very proud of. We strive not to be the largest or most assertive company in our young sector, but simply a company that represent the basic virtues of what we believe business and personal integrity demands. I never look at other company web-sites; I had never read the UK Vapours Forum or any other except our own

Why, because it does not matter to our company how successful or otherwise other companies are in our sector. As the company’s Business Development Director, I spend most of my time looking inwards to our company and our customer to find the direction I then apply to our business, not at others in our sector. We try to be very open, which sometimes begets criticism and subjective personal opinions which may be negatively inclined, but we recognise that this must be an understandable and accepted effect of our ‘open’ approach. Which other company in the UK electronic cigarette industry actively encourages customer to see the inner workings of its company, allows customers to visit its company HQ, communicate directly with its owner, visits its shops and see our employees first hand, or indeed have a company forum that holds us to account to our customers. The only voice we listen to is that of those who trust Totally Wicked to use us for their electronic cigarette needs – our customers.

We will not cow or succumb to the narrow personal and business agendas of self-anointed industry bodies that seek to further their own personal and business agendas, whilst acting in ways to adversely affect the customers such bodies should be supporting.

We will self-define our regulations until we are able to provide our support to the correct regulatory body that will assist in maturing our industry, and we will commit 100% to such a body when we are content that the agenda of the user is at the forefront not the need of the select cabal that wishes to be seen as representative.

Unfortunately our sector is often an unsavoury primordial soup of seminal ‘companies’ wishing to exploit the opportunity that these wonderful products provide, often for short-term personal financial benefit. I believe we attempt to swim clear of this part of our sector and do things in our own way, this makes some uncomfortable, so be it. Jason and I have made a commitment; we have reinvested and continue to reinvest the benefits that our customers have entrusted us with. This reinvestment is in product development, facilities and importantly our loyal 70 and growing members of staff. There is no satisfaction in personal wealth if it has been achieved by exploiting others or using practices and morals that the majority would consider unacceptable.

With the above in mind, perhaps what has transpired in the last few days can be at least considered with a balance of Totally Wicked’s thoughts in mind.

Fraser

Lordbarby, I expected these childish antics from Big Tobacco or Pharma not within the ecig industry, TW has seen my last dollar. I also cancelled my newsletter from your company. Let me know when you and yuor brother grow-up all ready!

 

[NotJohnnyDepp]

Aussie, I don't think lordbarby Is Fraser...