This is an INTERNATIONAL forum! Lessap is from Denmark... how is your Danish spelling? Just saying. Oh and I agee with Lessap about TW's juices. In a word.... horrible lol.
Statement from Totally Wicked
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It seems as though you obviously didn't see the posts that said pillbox wanted to "Exterminate a HIVE" or "you're such easy bait" or "I hate this place"(UKV) or "My forum allows no TW dissenting points, glad you finally realised this" or "I am having fun, trust me I am, hows the bait tasting" or calling uk vapers stupefying and repugnant, claiming to have inside knowledge about aliens on earth, or "I have had a team of 3 people monitoring this place (UKV) for 6 weeks" or "Now the kill shot" or "trust me I will get this place closed" etc etc etc there are many more that show exactly who was responsible for the closure of UKV.
All screenshoted by many many people.
Of course I did see the posts. Now answer this please. If there was no mud slinging from the very few irresponsible forum users would any threat of legal action be taken seriously? Why would UKV be taken down without a trace?
I don think so.
I'm clear. TW acted outrageously. Uncalled for. Unprofessional and frankly quite irrationale. I believe they know that now. Impossible to justify their actions and repair the damage. However to leave out the fact that it was a two-way dispute (essentially between a few radical and thoughtless UKV members and TW) is not fully thinking it through.
Peace.
They could be the bigger man and apologize. Because yes, I think they do need to apologize. The things JC said didn't even come close to what any of his opposers said. The phrase "I go into slasher mode" comes to mind.
He offended a lot of people, and a half assed acknowledgement in the letter of his sollicitor doesn't make any of us forget that.
I think it's more to do with the question as to why TW thought they could be actually justified in threatening legal action against UKV over the "two-way dispute" (as you choose to see it), rather than "fully thinking through" whether it was actually two-way or not...
And the justification of the "ECITA-gate" accusations (in reference to a UKV attack) was also totally bogus IMO.
I agree they should apologize.
Unfortuantely for me at least it would fall on deaf ears. I would not accept an apology from anyone who can act so irrationally.
My point is this. There is/was without a doubt, a very very small contingency on UKV who did get some kind of kick out of winding TW up. Period. They should also hang there heads in shame as they are also partly, albeit a small part, responsible for this whole mess. If we don't remember that the exact same thing will happen again I fear.
Then there is the issue of the alleged unethical practice in the ECITA. This has been quickly shoved under the carpet with no formal public statement issued. Check Companies House and take a look at the records and financial statement. Think about Crossbows role as moderator on UKV, the alleged cartel and wrong doings etc etc. I'm not suggesting their is any substance to the allegations of wrongdoing by the ECITA but if this is the case it does need to be discussed by the wider vaping community.
Consumers have the power.
Part of my worry is this. The ECITA are an influential force (for how long I don't know) they really need to get their act together IMHO to make a success of lobbying for the regulations we need.
AT the end of the day, whatever regulations are imposed, vendors will still make their money one way or another. It will be the consumer that gets hit.
Peace.
Unfortuantely for me at least it would fall on deaf ears. I would not accept an apology from anyone who can act so irrationally.
My point is this. There is/was without a doubt, a very very small contingency on UKV who did get some kind of kick out of winding TW up. Period. They should also hang there heads in shame as they are also partly, albeit a small part, responsible for this whole mess. If we don't remember that the exact same thing will happen again I fear.
Then there is the issue of the alleged unethical practice in the ECITA. This has been quickly shoved under the carpet with no formal public statement issued. Check Companies House and take a look at the records and financial statement. Think about Crossbows role as moderator on UKV, the alleged cartel and wrong doings etc etc. I'm not suggesting their is any substance to the allegations of wrongdoing by the ECITA but if this is the case it does need to be discussed by the wider vaping community.
Consumers have the power.
Part of my worry is this. The ECITA are an influential force (for how long I don't know) they really need to get their act together IMHO to make a success of lobbying for the regulations we need.
AT the end of the day, whatever regulations are imposed, vendors will still make their money one way or another. It will be the consumer that gets hit.
Peace.
An opinion, by definition, is subjective... but I hope mine has some objectivity in it!
(I've posted about "ECITA-gate" elsewhere in the thread, so I don't intend to post the same stuff again).
I don't think that there ever was a "two way" dispute. One person went out of their way to bait and antagonise a forum, and then went crying like a baby when he didn't get his way.
This was a one way thing that went wrong. The whole idea of a "two way" dispute has just been put around as some kind of damage limitation to deflect some of the blame, and it simply doesn't wash with anyone who was there at the time.
"I have had a team of 3 people working for 6 weeks"
"my agenda is to exterminate a HIVE"
"trust me I am enjoying myself, hows the bait tasting"
"you're such easy bait"
Nah - no matter how much you try and dress this up - it was ONE WAY. No doubt about it.
This was a one way thing that went wrong. The whole idea of a "two way" dispute has just been put around as some kind of damage limitation to deflect some of the blame, and it simply doesn't wash with anyone who was there at the time.
"I have had a team of 3 people working for 6 weeks"
"my agenda is to exterminate a HIVE"
"trust me I am enjoying myself, hows the bait tasting"
"you're such easy bait"
Nah - no matter how much you try and dress this up - it was ONE WAY. No doubt about it.
Because all those accusations were a desperate attempt to cloak what the real, and much simpler reason for all the fuss is: TW doesn't like it when you bad-mouth their products. And it sounds better if you have a conspiracy theory to back up your claims instead of outright saying "hey they don't like TW, make them shut up, NOW!"
I take your point, to a degree. But I really don't think anyone was particularly baiting anyone until the tirades of abuse that JC laid on the people in those discussions. For my part I have tried to diffuse the situation whenever JC posted. Either on here or on UKV. The problem was, he wasn't willing to enter into any form of discussion with anybody. He refused to answer any direct questions and simply ranted on and on. Spewing bile and insults (and some really odd, surreal conspiracy theories which I personally enjoyed and found hilarious - I think JC is a funny man!!) to everyone concerned. Yes. There may be a small contingent who were winding him up. But I honestly think the only person who was doing the winding up was JC himself. I'm guessing he'd be the first to admit that too. If I'm honest.
I had nothing against the guy whatsoever. I still don't, to a degree. I can understand his passion for his business. I respect what he's achieved. In his way, he was trying to defend himself and his company. It's just a shame he couldn't keep a professional lid on it before it got too out of hand and I firmly believe he went about it in completely the wrong way.
I am in no form affiliated with any of the people who he claimed has a bias on UKV and I felt he tarred us all with the same brush, so all we got was abuse, bitterness and bile.
I'm not going to just sit there and take abuse. Nor should I. Nor should anyone.
Ironically, there are now a lot more people who have a bias against him now. That's the result of all this. A lot of people used to be happy to buy the products. Now there is a situation where a lot of these people won't. Simply because they don't like the behaviour of the CEO of the company. However you cut it. This is atrocious PR.
I personally don't care about his allegations about ECITA. As this is completely between TW and ECITA and has yet to be proven. We need to be careful here, as it's hard to see facts when all we have is some rather one sided propaganda, coming from a single company. This is about a businessman (his business) and a trade organisation. It's not any of our concern as consumers at this point. Simply because we don't know the truth about the situation. Once there is an outcome from this dispute, then and only then should we be chipping in with opinion. Rumour and conjecture are not fact. Something we'd do well to remember.
Most businesses keep their dealings and disputes with organisations under wraps. Most CEO's will make sure that they are in command of all the facts before they post on open forums about their disputes with other business organisations. That said. It's really not our place to speculate on the wheres and why-fors there as that's all it is at this stage. A vocal allegation.
I run my own successful business and have the occasional dispute with clients about late payment, etc and can I just make this very clear. At no point will I go on to a forum and start opining about those clients. I will resolve the situation internally... Even once a resolution has been reached, I will keep the dispute to myself. I personally consider it highly unprofessional to bad-mouth any other business or organisation when I have my Director hat on. Even if they are in the wrong over something.
Personally, as a company director, I would have nothing to do with any organisation or business who air their dirty laundry in public. For example. Say you are a supplier of goods, and get into a dispute with a business who's CEO thinks it's alright to tell everyone who will listen about the dispute, before having any proof of any actual wrongdoing. I'd think long and hard about getting into bed with such a business. I'd be worried that if there was a dispute of any kind, then it would be aired publically. In the long run this would damage my business beyond repair. In the 5 years I have been running my business there have been disputes. Some serious. None have been made public. None have been discussed on open forums.
This debate can go on and on and in some ways it's useful. But we should all realise that a business dispute is really none of our concern. It's between the two parties involved in the dispute and nobody else. Regardless of what a CEO might post on an open forum about it. Remember, one person's view is just that. A view. Until proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
You know. Totally Wicked may be right. They may be helping us to see something sinister going on under our noses. I welcome that. All I'd ask is that they prove any allegations, before making the issues public. Without outcome proof, it all simply becomes propaganda and mis-information. No matter if the allegations are true or not.
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Great post. Appreciate it. But I guess, and I mean this politely, it is the difference between you and I. My fingers were buzzing on the keyboard ready with a reply for TW when UKV was attacked. But I held off. You can't argue with a madman. Gets you nowhere. How different things would've been if others had done the same.
It boils down to this in my opinion. If ''some' members of UKV had of held back, ignored the rantings, TW would have had no grounds for threatening legal action. Besides I feel there were actually no grounds for complaint and I would have carried on business as usual. However not my call.
Its a case of did TW have grounds for complaint or not?
The fact that it could be perceived TW instigated the dispute is irrelevant. Fact not circumstance.
As JC posted the quote below on his forum:-
I think every ecig forum should help him with his request and not write anything about him, his company or his products
I think every ecig forum should help him with his request and not write anything about him, his company or his products
1. I think Asha's post above sums it up quite nicely. These (thus far still unfounded) allegations should not have been thrown out in the community since they are serious accusations against real people and organizations. They should be discussed behind closed doors and not in a public forum. Afterwards, both sides can release statements and have the community discuss it, but not in the current way. By the way there are responses to these allegations from Katherine Devlin as well as Tom Pruen so it's not as if they refuse to answer and cover everything up.
2. Apart from brainfarts and theories from one man and one man alone (!) on several forums, there have been no "official" accusations as a result of this. The fact that they put their effort into sending a legal letter to UKV because TW is badmouthed there, but not pursue legal action against ECITA regarding the conflict of interest issue, which, if true, is FAR more important than a few opposers talking crap about your product, leaves me with the conclusion that even Jason knows that his ECITA ramblings were just that; brainfarts.
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