Makes sense and wouldn't work in the "straight-forward" application. Thanks for clearing that up anorth_uk.
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Makes sense and wouldn't work in the "straight-forward" application. Thanks for clearing that up anorth_uk.
Wow, seriously Anorth? Day am. Reading things like your slander laws really make me glad I'm an American. Reading about all your great food? Makes me wish I was a BRIT!
I beleive our slander and libel laws are so bad a few of your states have laws banning UK cases being taken against American sites. Can't remember the full text about it as I've been reading a fair bit the past week or so and it's starting to merge in my mind lol
The way I see it he was insulted and defended himself, I don't know anything about what's gone on in the past but over the last week or so it's been both sides fighting, I heard his radio interview the other day and to be honest I really thought he came across well. That letter doesn't say no-one can review TW products, it just says if you do, then do it in a mature manner.
I really can't see what is so out of order with that.
Even if that were true,,,,,,,he attacked a lot of people that did NOT insult him,,,,,,,,AND,,,,,,it's simply not professional, but that's my opinion,,,,,,,,I am a travel agent,,,,,,I deal with tons of rude, ignorant people daily. I wouldn't have a business if I told them what I really thought,,,,,,,,,and you know what? I wouldn't deserve a business if I did. It's simply not professional.
People slam hundreds of companies and products daily, on thousands of forums. Have you ever visited a forum discussing Microsoft or an automobile maker lately? Companies generally don't threaten to sue the forums involved because it would be beneath them to do so.
As it should have been with TW.
As it should have been with TW.
When you own a business it's not wise to be the one shooting yourself in the foot.
I rarely post on ECF, mostly read. I do not know MR Cropper personally, I have never bought his products (overpriced in this US market place) however many over the years, many Vapers have had (especially in the UK and ECF) direct contact with him, his business and been able to view via forums and you tube his actions, thoughts, words and opinions, which have given them license to create and form an opinion about himself and his company.
Actions have consequences. Mr Cropper has been a vendor for over 4 years in this industry, he is no stranger to the dynamics that happen within it.
My personal thoughts and opinions have been created by listening to Mr Cropper in an interview, reading posts and letters sent out by his business, viewing his videos online and knowing that he is (fact) using the laws in the UK to silence any negative opinion the vaping community has come to have of him and or his business.
When someone portrays themselves in a certain manner, online, in forums, in letters, in videos, in interviews, the public has every right to make an informed (due to the person actions) of the character and integrity of the person doing these things. It would be foolish and unnatural for the public in general NOT too do these things, it is OUR nature and solely based up the information provided by the person in question.
Realistically there is no way for every vendor to get every single negative review, remark or comment out of the the marketplace. Coke can't do it, Pepsi can't do it, McDonald's can't do it. No one can police every forum, being asked to censure everyone's slightest remark, interpret the meaning by the commentator and then remove the remark.
I personally feel that Mr. Cropper is using his ability due to his financial status to make UKVF to bend to his will.
A concern now is that Mr Cropper has set up shop in the US, will he continued said behavior here and go after every insult and named called on US forums. US Vapers have some news for him on this side of the pond. It won't be tolerated one bit. If the vaping community can raise $20K+ for a vaper going through cancer, don't think for one hot minute we won't pull it together to fight for Free Speech.
IF UKVF will stand against this slaughter of FREE SPEECH legally, US and Vapers around the world will stand with them. It is a matter of principle.
Actions have consequences. Mr Cropper has been a vendor for over 4 years in this industry, he is no stranger to the dynamics that happen within it.
My personal thoughts and opinions have been created by listening to Mr Cropper in an interview, reading posts and letters sent out by his business, viewing his videos online and knowing that he is (fact) using the laws in the UK to silence any negative opinion the vaping community has come to have of him and or his business.
When someone portrays themselves in a certain manner, online, in forums, in letters, in videos, in interviews, the public has every right to make an informed (due to the person actions) of the character and integrity of the person doing these things. It would be foolish and unnatural for the public in general NOT too do these things, it is OUR nature and solely based up the information provided by the person in question.
Realistically there is no way for every vendor to get every single negative review, remark or comment out of the the marketplace. Coke can't do it, Pepsi can't do it, McDonald's can't do it. No one can police every forum, being asked to censure everyone's slightest remark, interpret the meaning by the commentator and then remove the remark.
I personally feel that Mr. Cropper is using his ability due to his financial status to make UKVF to bend to his will.
A concern now is that Mr Cropper has set up shop in the US, will he continued said behavior here and go after every insult and named called on US forums. US Vapers have some news for him on this side of the pond. It won't be tolerated one bit. If the vaping community can raise $20K+ for a vaper going through cancer, don't think for one hot minute we won't pull it together to fight for Free Speech.
IF UKVF will stand against this slaughter of FREE SPEECH legally, US and Vapers around the world will stand with them. It is a matter of principle.
@Dagar Us laws are very different than UK laws. The standard for libel is much looser in the UK from what I understand. If you are interested in seeing what the US standards are and how they apply to internet communications I suggest taking a look at EFF. There are some key points listed about what constitutes libel under US law and how these points apply to bloggers and forum posters.
Remember that UK citizens may be subject to UK law regardless of the physical location of the server (I'm not a lawyer -- but that is what the Brits are saying)
Remember that UK citizens may be subject to UK law regardless of the physical location of the server (I'm not a lawyer -- but that is what the Brits are saying)
I doubt that will happen, it would be a loss for him if he tried the same legal action here in the United States. There is a large (the largest) big-box stores that has a number of sites that are designed to make fun of, insult and down-right slander the company, its employees, and customers (on some of the sites). The site is going on 6 years despite numerous lawsuits, in fact there are dozens of them up and running now. You can not stifle opinions, fact or fiction people will write them and others will read them.
That's why any reputable company employs PR people.
You'd be referring to http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/
I believe it's the where the burden of proof lies which makes the UK so attractive for those considering a suit. It's wrong to assume though that a threat equals a legal victory and the legal defence of 'fair comment' exists here in the UK. We are allowed to state opinion which is why large corporations don't sue. There's also the general truism that it's pointless suing someone who doesn't have any money.
You don't have to win a case to benefit from the threat and this is a perfect example. UKV is/was used by many an emerging business in this field. The vendors section is where they would post competitions or short term special offers and that avenue is now unavailable to them. I'm sure it was an unintended side effect.
I have read the 'Ody' thread on UKV that seems to have had some role in starting this and I have to say that the review was being done in a logical and thoughtful way. I didn't see anything that should have been upsetting to a vendor.
The situation seems to have been inflamed greatly by the posting of the 'M6' video and a statement by the video's maker (the link is in this thread).
I listened to the interview live and distinctly heard the interviewee speak of vapers in a negative light. Not the most conciliatory thing to say but there was most certainly (to the interviewee's credit), a conciliatory tone at the end, the fruits of which we have yet to see as UKVapers is still down and the demands to block content remain the same.
I was very disappointed that during the interview, ECCA and ECITA had little to say. The impression that I got was that the person with the money and the lawyers had silenced all other opinions due to the possibility of litigation. That sense of vaping representatives and vaping media on both sides of the Atlantic 'running scared' on this 'news story' has been palpable and also disappointing. I hope that the UK/US government agencies have not been taking notes on this response. In such an environment, no facts could be uncovered and despite the conciliatory tone at the end of the interview, no questions that the listeners may have had about the events leading to the closing of UKVapers were answered.
If it wasn't for the likes of this thread, it seems that those caught in the middle of this would be in the dark. A very sad state of affairs. My interest comes from the angle that this kind of action by a vendor may not be an isolated one. Any vendor could at any time feel threatened and retaliate in this way. We have seen the kind of damage that can quickly be inflicted and it seems that there is no defence. I would be interested to know if there is a defence that can be used, or does the global vaping community need a 'fighting fund' to purchase legal representation for forums under such legal pressure? In short, what can the Community do to help the Forums, a mainstay of our community stay open (beyond the careful phrasing of posts and keeping our mouths shut when asked)?
I hope that people can see what I am thinking *could* be a future scenario without me having to voice it. I am not a conspiracy theorist by the way.
It sounds like Jackie is in a hard spot in many areas at the moment. I'd like to think that 'behind the scenes', she is getting support and help to deal with all of this. Does anyone know if that is happening?
Love to All
I doubt that there is true fear of losing a libel suit, or even having to fight one. There must, however, be a real sense of whether all the work is worth all the hassle.
(Didn't want to break the rules of links in the forumsYou'd be referring to http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/
) There are several others up as well.
Yep, that's the crux of it. The operators of UKV I'm sure are asking themselves that very question.Trying to run a forum that encourages consumers to share their thoughts in a litigious atmosphere would probably sap the will of the best of us.
Whatever we say, whatever else the vendor CEO says, you can't ignore cause and effect. A warning salvo was shot at UKV, and they've gone into turtle mode to protect themselves. Not a good thing for the industry in my view, it shows how touchy the big players are just for starters, and lets be honest, if you've read any of the build up it does show just how sensitive they really are.....in my opinion.
UKV have probably thought all of this through.
1. Introduce paid advertisements
2. Encourage site supporters
3. Make vendors earning more than 50k a year pay for their own forum section on the website. All product and vendor related posts only to go into the vendors section. Vendors accept clause that they will not, at anytime press a claim
4. Strengthen the tech support the site needs with tech savvy volunteers (help Jackie out)
5. Give members more say in operational matters (like who is a mod, ECITA connections)
6. Set-up a fighting fund to prevent similar TW episodes being a threat
7. Make UKV a limited company
8. Demonstrate to vendors that the community is a whole. Any bollocks then you're out
9. Pay Jackie a retainer
1. Introduce paid advertisements
2. Encourage site supporters
3. Make vendors earning more than 50k a year pay for their own forum section on the website. All product and vendor related posts only to go into the vendors section. Vendors accept clause that they will not, at anytime press a claim
4. Strengthen the tech support the site needs with tech savvy volunteers (help Jackie out)
5. Give members more say in operational matters (like who is a mod, ECITA connections)
6. Set-up a fighting fund to prevent similar TW episodes being a threat
7. Make UKV a limited company
8. Demonstrate to vendors that the community is a whole. Any bollocks then you're out
9. Pay Jackie a retainer
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