Stop saying you quit smoking!

[ChipCurtis]

The problem in the US is that the nation has become too big to govern at this point.

The 2-party system in the US is not the Democrats vs Republicans, it's now the Government vs. The People. Massive underclass/uneducated inner-city population growth combined with out-of-control illegal immigration (again, more underclass/uneducated growth, exacerbating an already bad problem) has allowed those in power in Washington and State Capitols to wield unprecedented power over the population. This massive Feudal population growth is supported by both major parties.

Because the majority of the US population is now underclass, unfunded, and uneducated, they have no idea what is going on day-to-day in their country. Those of us who are survivors from the Great Postwar Middle Class Ascendancy of the 2nd half of the 20th century are now watching as our country gets taken over by a Medievalist Feudal Cabal of power brokers, high-ranking business interests, and their cronies in the halls of Congress.

All we can do now is watch the overlords rake us over the coals, if we take no action. There isn't much hope short of a violent revolution at this stage, I'm afraid.

 

[kristin]

Correct. And this IMHO is what lies at the heart of the rabid anti's outrage against us. For them, it's not specifically about the taxes (that's more the FDA and gov't concerns) -- it's about the fact that e-cigs have stolen their thunder -- and, in effect, rendered their organizations obsolete in a very embarrasing way (becuase vaping is so enjoyable).

Rabid anti's truly believe that the entire concept of "Quit Smoking" is an intellectual property that belongs exclusively to them, and you haven't really "Quit Smoking" until you've done it on their terms and conditions.

No, it's because they don't accept that you've quit smoking while still inhaling nicotine. They want 100% nicotine abstinence and nothing less.

Mark my words folks - once ecigs become a PC method to "quit smoking" they will go after that other 2% risk in ecigs and expect you to quit those too. You aren't looking far enough ahead in the game.

Until and unless vaping becomes accepted as it's own practice and not just as a good way to get off cigarettes, it will always be a target.

By setting the seeds now, it will help in the future.

If you don't believe semantics can change public perception just look at:

shell shocked vs. post traumatic stress syndrome
......ed vs. mentally disabled
crazy vs mentally ill
cripple vs. physically challenged
black/negro vs African American
drunk vs alcoholic
bum vs homeless/displaced
pervert vs sexual predator
waitress/waiter, stewardess/steward, actor/actress vs server, flight attendant & actor
global warming vs climate change

PC words didn't become PC on their own - it was a concerted effort by advocates to change public perception, because that is where the power is.

 

[ChipCurtis]

No, it's because they don't accept that you've quit smoking while still inhaling nicotine. They want 100% nicotine abstinence and nothing less.

Mark my words folks - once ecigs become a PC method to "quit smoking" they will go after that other 2% risk in ecigs and expect you to quit those too. You aren't looking far enough ahead in the game.

We are not in disagreement here. You have stated pretty much the same thing but in different words. The anti's aren't necessariy focused on some scietntific justification for what they do. Whether it's nicotine, smoke, nitrosamines or other chemicals, it matters not to them. They don't just want nicotine abstinece, they want abstinence of anything that even looks like smoking. It's more about human behavior modification than what chemicals you put into your body.

I'm trying to hit upon the psychological center of what drives the anti's agenda over this issue. This identification casts a wider net over them than what you've surmised. You seem to be going one issue at a time (they'll go after that, then this, then this....). Yes I know that, but I am trying to hit upon the fundamental center of truth of why they do those things.

IMHO it really is about them getting their agenda stolen out from under them by some dinky little Chinese invention. Imagine what a monumental slap in the face the e-cig represents to their cause. Once you realize this, it's rather redundant to pick through the details like you're doing. We KNOW they will go after it using any tools at their disposal.

This really is an emotional battle, as much as it is a legal and health issue one.

 

[taz3cat]

The members of the forums are in a unique position, They can set the trend for PV for the coming years or they can send them to the abyss. ANTI-Tobacco researchers are quoting, every, dumb and stupid thing people on the forums can think up to write about as well as the terminology we use to describe what we are doing. They are writing Research Papers on what we say on the forums. We need to set the descriptors for Vaping, so they get somethings correct in these research papers. It is like Kristin said there is power in the correct terminology and descriptors.

 

[kristin]

Yes I know that, but I am trying to hit upon the fundamental center of truth of why they do those things.
.

The more you learn about these people, the more you realize that there is no "reason." It's like a cult. Ask Bill Godshall of Smokefree Pennsylvania. He's dealt with these groups for nearly 20 years and was once among their ranks. Ask Dr. Michael Siegel - same story. Now they are virtually pariahs. They'll tell you that the antis have gone from being concerned about public health to militant prohibitionists. There is no logic anymore - just vehement hate.

It's not the antis we need to convince. It's all of those people sitting on the fence, hearing their rhetoric and lies. It's the people who still have logic and reason we need to convince.

 

[JerryRM]

We need to hit the antis where it is going to hurt them the most, in the wallet. Ask your family and your friends not to donate to those organizations. Tell them the truth about those groups, how their agenda is not to protect public health, but to control our lives. Ask your friends to spread the word to their friends and so on. I have already started doing that.

Putting them out of business would be too much to hope for, but maybe we can put enough of a dent in their finances, to get our message across to them.

Remember to vote in every election you can, vote against those who would deny your freedom of choice.

 

[CES]

The American Cancer Society is one such group. I emailed them to ask them to consider withdrawing their support for the current legislative attempts, and cited the FDA study that has been used to misrepresent the potential for harm. They wrote back, but quoted me the study i was questioning. They also told me that consumers didn't have access to ingredient lists....so i sent them the links to those reports and a few others (thanks CASAA).

 

[harmony gardens]

People with power that can't listen to reason, drive me nuts. If the anti's would think thier position through, they would realize that vaping is not smoking, and they are tossing a product under the bus that can actually help them achieve thier goal.

What better way to get people to quit smoking, than developing a product that is relatively safe that they actually enjoy????

This product is here,,, when will the lightbulb go on in the anti's?? I believe it HAS to. These are educated people, eventually they would have to see something so obvious. Our challenge is opening thier eyes.

 

[Big Hit]

I quit smoking cigarettes and I quit paying exorbitant taxes for tobacco products.
We do not need to downplay our behavior for the FDA or the doubting public.
If we can negotiate laws by deemphasizing our hobby than I will change my tune.
I will start whistling 'Dixie'.

 

[Ninotschka]

I agree with most of what is said in here. being very new to vaping, i find it the only thing to get me off analogs in 18 years. and i did love smoking, believe me. I see vaping as an alternative too, a healthier one, and it baffles me that it is banned in some places, when smokes are still readily available. are they banned because the government was not able to find a quick tax to stick on them or because they are ignorant? i just don't get it.

 

[ChipCurtis]

I agree with most of what is said in here. being very new to vaping, i find it the only thing to get me off analogs in 18 years. and i did love smoking, believe me. I see vaping as an alternative too, a healthier one, and it baffles me that it is banned in some places, when smokes are still readily available. are they banned because the government was not able to find a quick tax to stick on them or because they are ignorant? i just don't get it.

It is unfortunate what is going on, so you should stay abreast of all the legal changes. You are also affected. Check the following link:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...egulation-e-cigs-petition-further-action.html

Read it, it has links to the sites where you can fill in petitions to try to stop your UK regulatory authorities from classifying this as a drug delivery device, and thus pulling it from the market.

 

[TWalker]

Maybe I have not read enough but calling it a "tobacco product" sounds like exactly the opposite of what should be done. First off it is untrue....and second of all...well it is a lie.


I will defer though to those of you who are more knowledgeable and have our interests at heart.

 

[JerryRM]

Maybe I have not read enough but calling it a "tobacco product" sounds like exactly the opposite of what should be done. First off it is untrue....and second of all...well it is a lie.


I will defer though to those of you who are more knowledgeable and have our interests at heart.

I would like to see it called "an FDA exempt smoking alternative", but the reality is that they are going to call it either a "tobacco product" or a "drug/device" and tobacco product is the lesser of the two evils.

 

[Dudeman]

I've participated in every effort to keep these things legal even though I don't see anything WE have to say, having any impact at all. I do it for the simple fact that I'm tired of all the BS.

I quit smoking. Just as I have quit drinking. Wait, I still intake liquids without alcohol. Does that mean I'm still drinking? Semantics.

The play on words isn't really going to make any difference IMHO.

The gov wants it's tax money from tobacco <period>. This is taking money out of their pockets. If they deem e-cigs legal, that will also take money out of the pockets of BT and BP, which , in turn, will take more money away from the gov and politicians themselves.

The anti's are simply against it because THEY all know whats good for US and that will never change. It's their way or the highway. It's the whole "well, I don't think it's right so it should be outlawed" mentality.

Until I light a cigarette, I've quit.

 

[basic_atheist]

I agree with most of what is said in here. being very new to vaping, i find it the only thing to get me off analogs in 18 years. and i did love smoking, believe me. I see vaping as an alternative too, a healthier one, and it baffles me that it is banned in some places, when smokes are still readily available. are they banned because the government was not able to find a quick tax to stick on them or because they are ignorant? i just don't get it.

Warning: Just speculation based on observation...

I think the world banking cartel is involved, because stocks and special interests are involved. If some of the things I'm hearing and reading about are true about another similar product in development which was waiting to be released to the market, then it all makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, I feel like I'm stepping into conspiracy nut land on this and it feels a bit scary. I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Thulium]

Warning: Just speculation based on observation...

I think the world banking cartel is involved, because stocks and special interests are involved. If some of the things I'm hearing and reading about are true about another similar product in development which was waiting to be released to the market, then it all makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, I feel like I'm stepping into conspiracy nut land on this and it feels a bit scary. I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Sadly, there is a fine line between conspiracy "nut land" and legitimate conspiracies. In this case, there is an incontrovertible conspiracy between the FDA and their corporate pharmaceutical "sponsors" to maintain control over "smoking cessation". If you say you quit smoking, the FDA+BP take this to mean that you are using some sort of "drug" to do it.

The FDA is trying so hard to gain/maintain control over that particular verbiage that I suggested the phrase "smoking replacement" and now we are borrowing from the Harm Reduction paradigm with our "reduced harm alternative tobacco products"...but the reality is that if you replace analogs with e-cigs or with jellybeans, gum, toothpicks, reduced risk tobacco, or whatever...if you're not inhaling the toxic products of combustion, you aren't smoking!

Although I agree with Kristin that we should emphasize our choice to use an alternative to toxic combustion byproducts, I don't think this has to mean we should abandon common sense and completely "stop saying [we] quit smoking." Even though I didn't switch to reduced harm alternatives to combustible tobacco products with the intention of quitting smoking, the truth is the latter was the direct result of the former. I wasn't trying to quit smoking, but as it turns out, I did quit smoking by switching to a reduced harm alternative.

 

[Zedoctor]

*smokes analogue and waits for parcel to arrive*

if i just smoke e-cigs i will say im smoke free.. will still be an addict though

 

[basic_atheist]

If you say you quit smoking, the FDA+BP take this to mean that you are using some sort of "drug" to do it.

Ummm... I did use a drug to do it. It's called nicotine.

But, to be more accurate... I aborted smoking and switched to vaping. It should be my choice to select any nicotine source I want. I'm not planning on "quitting" nicotine, but it might still happen one day. When that day comes it's not going to be a PV that did it, it's going to be done on my own will when I feel comfortable doing so. It will be done on my terms and not somebody elses. Until then, I reserve the right to choose my source no matter how better or worse anybody else thinks it is.

Under the scope of how the FDA already influences regulation and allows tobacco smoking products to remain on the public market, I see the health issue as Not Applicable. The FDA is chasing a lost cause ghost and they should be looking in their own backyard to find the problem. They are not doing that because they know what I just said is correct and all they want to do is redirect the money traffic. Every step they take against a better nicotine product available to the public proves they have a hidden agenda with special interest groups, developers, banks, stocks, and corporations. If they don't want more people to discover those points, then they better stop what they are doing and let the PV slip into the "tobacco" category.

A PV is a legitimate nicotine source just like all the other nicotine sources. Just because the PV supplies a cleaner source of nicotine it does NOT mean it's a cessation device. The very idea of it being one is ridiculous and if it were true, then all tobacco products should be regulated as a cessation device! Why? Because in reality you could wean yourself from nicotine using any tobacco product if you put your mind to doing so. So again, the FDA argument is B.S.

Let's take a look at the cigarette again... It holds a nicotine product inside a device made of paper and glue. It's a primitive device, but none the less it works effectively. It also has a mouth piece, also made of paper and glue, and some models include a layered fiber filter with flavorings in them. The whole primitive device delivers nicotine, plus you get some additional delicious toxins as a bonus. These primitive cigarette devices also have different nicotine strengths to choose from... non-filter, full flavor filtered, mediums, lights, and ultra lights. If you don't fire one up and smoke it, then you also have ZERO nicotine. An old friend of mine use to suck on the filter end of a cigarette without burning it. He called it his "pacifier" and used that method to quit smoking with a determined will... So there you have it! A cigarette is also a smoking cessation device! Ooops, the FDA better shut them down! Ha Ha Ha. The FDA is bogus, that's for sure.

Now go back to the PV... That unit has a serious upgrade. It clearly has quality service as a goal. It still supplies nicotine, just a cleaner version of it. It's disposable, but you get more uses out of it before you have to retire it. The PV battery is the fuel, as to the lighter fluid in a cigarette lighter. The PV atomizer is the heat, as to the flame of a cigarette lighter. The cartridge is the nicotine vessel, as to the paper tube and tobacco of a cigarette.

Other than the PV missing the other 4,000 chemicals including the natural tobacco, [ooops, forgot - and missing the smoke since there is no combustion - thanks Thulium], and the PV is capable of renewable energy via the lithium-ion battery charger, the 2 products are still in the same family. The PV just happens to be the new improved product with the better advantage.

Now pretend you are Phillip Morris and you hear people raving about the new tech PV gadget already on the market. You don't have the means to compete with it just yet and you don't want your company to loose money. You need more time to get your new product (still in development) out there too. You're facilities have not been converted yet either, so you need to stall the market somehow. You already have a history of being a sneaky S.O.B., so a little more tactical force is not a problem. You've got buddies in the FDA, HMO's, the Media, and the BP willing to trade favors and possibly some petty cash too... What do you do?...
[insert final jeopardy music here]

Somebody out there is a sore loser. I wish they would just get with the program and learn what "competition" is suppose to mean. It does NOT equal a cheating, lying, misleading, back stabbing conversion into a bigger scumbag. It means to get your sorry ... busy and crank out a better product! Pronto and SNAP!

----

Sorry, I got carried away with that one... LOL.

It's just a scenario. Assume there is no truth to the greed so your head won't explode.

 

[Thulium]

Ummm... I did use a drug to do it. It's called nicotine.

You say tomato, Judge Leon said tobacco.

Under the scope of how the FDA already influences regulation and allows tobacco smoking products to remain on the public market, I see the health issue as Not Applicable. The FDA is chasing a lost cause ghost and they should be looking in their own backyard to find the problem. They are not doing that because they know what I just said is correct and all they want to do is redirect the money traffic. Every step they take against a better nicotine product available to the public proves they have a hidden agenda with special interest groups, developers, banks, stocks, and corporations. If they don't want more people to discover those points, then they better stop what they are doing and let the PV slip into the "tobacco" category.

I completely agree, and hope you are right about it being a lost cause for the FDA... But just last night we proved that our government doesn't give up on lost causes. :-S

Let's take a look at the cigarette again... It holds a nicotine product inside a device made of paper and glue. It's a primitive device, but none the less it works effectively. It also has a mouth piece, also made of paper and glue, and some models include a layered fiber filter with flavorings in them. The whole primitive device delivers nicotine, plus you get some additional delicious toxins as a bonus. These primitive cigarette devices also have different nicotine strengths to choose from... non-filter, full flavor filtered, mediums, lights, and ultra lights. If you don't fire one up and smoke it, then you also have ZERO nicotine. An old friend of mine use to suck on the filter end of a cigarette without burning it. He called it his "pacifier" and used that method to quit smoking with a determined will... So there you have it! A cigarette is also a smoking cessation device! Ooops, the FDA better shut them down! Ha Ha Ha. The FDA is bogus, that's for sure.

According to Dr. Eisenberg's study, the unlit cigarette "pacifier" is just as effective at "drug delivery". Fortunately, Dr. E only looked at the first 10 puffs and most e-cig users eventually figure out how to use them properly.

Now go back to the PV... That unit has a serious upgrade. It clearly has quality service as a goal. It still supplies nicotine, just a cleaner version of it. It's disposable, but you get more uses out of it before you have to retire it. The PV battery is the fuel, as to the lighter fluid in a cigarette lighter. The PV atomizer is the heat, as to the flame of a cigarette lighter. The cartridge is the nicotine vessel, as to the paper tube and tobacco of a cigarette. Other than the PV missing the other 4,000 chemicals including the natural tobacco, and the PV is capable of renewable energy via the lithium-ion battery charger, the 2 products are still in the same family. The PV just happens to be the new improved product with the better advantage.

And don't forget smoke. The PV is missing smoke. With no combustion, there is no smoke, with no smoke, you aren't smoking. If you stop using something with smoke because you prefer using something with no smoke you have quit smoking.

Here's a nice analogy: Remember the infamous Great White concert and subsequent fire at The Station in 2003? Lets say instead of using pyro, they just use fog machines. Technically, they would have "stopped smoking" and in fact might consider the harm reducing fog machines to be a fire prevention method--does that mean fog machines should be regulated by the NFPA?

 

[cliff5550]

Myself and everyone I know equate "smoking" with a cigarette or tobacco that is lit, smokes and stinks. I have QUIT smoking.
Paint it any way you like but those in charge and the public will call it what they want no matter what spin we try to put on it.
I "smoked" for more than 40 years. I no longer "smoke".