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Kinestics has been a longtime hobby of mine though I'm no expert. I tried to find a higher res copy of the linked video but without success. The best I can determine from this copy and her brief statement is that she firmly believes what she's saying, particularly her comment about "anti-freeze" and "other" unnamed chemicals.
If anyone has other links of her discussing the topic, please add them.
If anyone has other links of her discussing the topic, please add them.
I'm just curious.... Everyone keeps arguing that these are going to make their way into kid's hands and that they are too easily accessible. Have there been ANY stories, reports, etc of kid's getting in trouble for e-cigs? I'm just curious.
I'm pretty sure b/w suburban America and the police state there would be at least some reports surfacing. It would be an "epidemic sweeping through your child's school." All I seem to ever hear is from politicians saying they might make their way to kids. If kid's were really using e-cigs like they make it sound, you would see soccer moms and dads all over the country on the news. But it's always just politicians.
There should be a report on number of kid's caught smoking analogs underage vs e-cigs underage. Or, start including it on any standardized survey for schools, etc.
I'm pretty sure b/w suburban America and the police state there would be at least some reports surfacing. It would be an "epidemic sweeping through your child's school." All I seem to ever hear is from politicians saying they might make their way to kids. If kid's were really using e-cigs like they make it sound, you would see soccer moms and dads all over the country on the news. But it's always just politicians.
There should be a report on number of kid's caught smoking analogs underage vs e-cigs underage. Or, start including it on any standardized survey for schools, etc.
While I have heard this before, I also came across this in google, "Looking to the top right suggests the creation of images. This is a strong indication that he is lying to you."
Keep in mind that this is not a credible source.
I find it hard to believe that Linda has only received information about the electronic cigarette from the FDA. I want to know her true motive of banning it!
Keep in mind that this is not a credible source.
I find it hard to believe that Linda has only received information about the electronic cigarette from the FDA. I want to know her true motive of banning it!
I think it would make for an interesting poll of middle school / high school principals.
There have been two articles mentioning minors actually using e-cigs that I know of:
-- This recent one, which features a 17-year-old who started smoking when he was 11 and has cut his cigarette consumption down because of an e-cig City, County Roll Out Minor Ban On E-Cigarettes - News Story - KXLY Spokane
-- This utterly ridiculous, yellow journalism from AOL News Your Kids Buy E-Cigs; Do You Know What's in Them?
God, I wish someone other than the government (the Gallup organization, for example) would do a poll calling until they contacted 1,000 people who have stopped smoking within the last two years and ask them
what method they used
whether they are still smoke-free and if so, how long.
Of course, they would need to have "electronic cigarette, also known as a personal nicotine vaporizer" as one of the answer choices.
what method they used
whether they are still smoke-free and if so, how long.
Of course, they would need to have "electronic cigarette, also known as a personal nicotine vaporizer" as one of the answer choices.
This issue has got me so confused. I find that most flavors I use (from perfumersapprentice.com) are in PG. This one out of 16 cartidge thing is not giving me enough information, is that 1 out of 16 juice manufacturers? Or does the DEG just "pop up" randonly in batches?
If it's USP grade PG, can I be sure that it is free of DEG ?
If it's USP grade PG, can I be sure that it is free of DEG ?
Welcome to the forum. The origin of all this concern about DEG was tests that the FDA conducted on 18 cartridges made by the two companies that had filed a law suit against the agency. In July 2009, the FDA held a press conference and announced that "they contain carcinogens and toxic chemicals such as diethylene glycol, an ingredient used in antifreeze."
FDA and Public Health Experts Warn About Electronic Cigarettes
The press release was very cleverly written to mislead the public. A well-known propaganda technique is to select words to achieve a desired emotional response. What thoughts and emotions are evoked by the words "carcinogens" and "antifreeze"? Thoughts: "These things cause cancer, and they are going to poison me."
Emotions: Fear, Anger, Loathing
Notice that the antifreeze reference is worded "an ingredient used in antifreeze." Keep that word "ingredient" in mind. I'll come back to it a little later. Also notice that the press release uses the plural "toxic chemicals," implying that many potentially poisonous chemicals were found.
A second very popular propaganda technique is to tell the truth--but only part of the truth. A basic rule of toxicology is "The dose makes the poison." Anything and everything--including water--is toxic at large enough doses. And some very potent chemicals are quite harmless or possibly even helpful in small enough quantities. And example of this is flouride added to your drinking water.
Well the part of the truth that the FDA left out of their press release was the quantity of the "carcinogins" and "toxic chemicals."
The "carcinogens" the FDA referred to are naturally-occuring Tobacco-specific Nitrosamines (TSNAs). It turns out that the cartridges labeled "high" strength contain 8 nanograms (ng) of TSNAs. A nanogram is one-billionth of a gram. Is this a dangerous quantity? Well, consider the fact that a 21-mg FDA-approved Nicoderm patch also contains 8 ng of TSNAs. One piece of 4-mg Nicorette gum contains 2 ng of TSNAs, and most folks use between 5 and 20 pieces per day. There are no cancer warnings on the FDA-approved nicotine products. Why? Because 8 ng is too mniniscule an amount to create a health hazard. To put this into perspective, a pack of tobacco cigarettes typically contains over 100,000 ng of TSNAs.
Sources:
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf See Table 2.2 on page 7, and the two comments under the table.
http://www.e-cig.org/pdfs/TSNA-Study-in-Smokeless-Tobacco-Products.pdf See Table 1 on page 312. These measurements are in micrograms. Multiply by 1000 to calculate the measurements in nanograms.
It turns out that the FDA only found one potentially toxic chemical: diethylene glycol (DEG). The FDA did state that the quantity found was 1%. Is that a dangerous amount? Well, first you need to know 1% of what measurement. The answer to that is 1% of a milliliter (ml) of e-cigarette liquid. How much DEG would it take to poison you? Depends on how much you weigh.
Health Canada says, The major hazard from DEG occurs following the ingestion of relatively large single doses. There have been 105 reported fatalities among 353 people who ingested a solution of sulfanilamide in an aqueous mixture containing 72% DEG. The estimated lethal dose of DEG for humans is approximately 1 ml/kg. Diethylene glycol; classification with respect to acute toxicity - Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System - Health Canada
So let's walk through the math together. One percent of a cartridge that holds a ml of liquid = 0.01 ml of DEG. Thus, 100 cartridges would be required to add up to a full ml of DEG. Let's say that we have an adult who weighs 150 pounds, which converts to 68.04 kg. That adult would need to drink the fluid from 6804 cartridges in single day to reach a lethal dose of DEG. Of course, we are ignoring a couple of other facts. By the time most folks got to the 3rd or 4th cartridge, the nicotine overdose would have triggered vomiting. Also, people don't typically drink the fluid. In fact, there are warnings to wipe the liquid off your skin, so drinking it certainly is not recommended. Instead, users inhale the vapor.
FACT: No testing by any laboratory has ever detected DEG in the vapor. That include's the FDA's testing. Here is what the actual lab report itself has to say about what was found in the vapor:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/ScienceResearch/UCM173250.pdf
NOTE: An independent lab reviewed the FDA's lab report and stated, "There is no indication in the published scientific literature that cotinine or β-nicotyrine are carcinogenic or have toxicity ratings of concern." http://www.casaa.org/files/Exponent Response-to-the-FDA-Summary.pdf
So the bottom line is that the FDA did not find anything at all in the vapor that presents a danger to the health of adult consumers.
Let's return to the issue of "an ingredient used in antifreeze." First of all, DEG has many industrial uses. It actually isn't used in the antifreeze most folks put into their car. But if the FDA had characterized DEG as "an ingredient used in drywall joint compound" or "a stabilizer for soluble oil dispersions," it just would not have sounded anywhere near as scary as "antifreeze".
It is not unheard of to detect trace amounts of DEG in PG. The DEG is not added as an ingredient to PG. It is left behind when the PG is purified. The word "ingredient" also stuck in people's heads, leading many to believe that the evil Chinese manufacturers are adding DEG to e-cigarette liquids as one of the ingredients.
To answer your question, the limits of DEG allowed in USP grade PG have been recently revised. The maximum concentratrion of DEG permitted in PG as of February 2011 is 0.1%. Dow Answer Center
In the 7 years that electronic cigarettes have been in use world wide, there have been zero reports of any serious adverse events.
If you want assurance that manufacturers are using USP grade PG, you can order liquid manufactured in the U.S. or in the U.K.
Wow, thanks Vocalek, you answered all my question and much more. Outstanding info.
You are a wealth of information. I couldn't have gotten a better result from hours of googling, I really appreciate your effort. I make my own e-juice and prefer to use VG, I don't get the nasty TH that most actaully like, I get lots of vapor, and I don't get an upset stomach. I would love to get the flavorings without PG and some are with Triacetin, one of my favorites in fact, Pecan. I did a search on it and found that it's a triester of glycerol and acetic acid. Also a "fuel additive", oh no, wait till the FDA gets on that. As per https://www.vwrsp.com/msds/10/JTW/JTW307-7.htm there are no adverse health effects expected from inhalation. So that would avoid any hazards, other than the nitrosamines from nicotine. My nicotine VG base that I get is clear, I thought it was synthetic nicotine and not a tobacco extract. Could that be? Thanks again
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