SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL)

[Vlad1]

IDK I'm kind of confused when folks drop in and start talking about accuracy if not using .065Ω I have not seen or heard anyone report any inaccuracy with anything on the SXmini or SXmini M to date. I think there are a few that believe for whatever reason the world will come to an end and the device will not function correctly or accurately unless your at .065Ω

I'll repost Yihi's comment maybe that will do away with the absurd statements. I've been led to believe the last sentence in their statement was made due to some people using the wrong wire types either accidentally or intentionally in temp mode.

"Because the technology of M Class is the newest, and supports lower sub-ohm resistance, we suggest a 0.06-0.12 ohm base on Temco Ni-200. You can get the perfect experinces when you build the atomizer with the resistance 0.06ohm. However, if using the resistance above 0.3 ohm or Khanthal atomizers there will be variance and some unexpected behaviors may be observed in Joule mode."

 

[TheotherSteveS]

I thought he was talking about titanium and the correction you have to factor for due to Ti's different resistance curve.

But if he was just doing the delta between the recommended 0.065 and 0.19 with Ni200, well, that's just wrong. There's no accuracy skew as you get away from the recommended resistance, there can't be. Thats the same as saying the accuracy is crap when it gets to 400F, or 500F, compared to 200F, because those temp numbers are just based on measured resistance that can closely approach 1.0 ohm when firing, depending on temp and joules selected.

And frankly, you can get more stability at higher base resistance, because if there IS a skew for mechanical reasons (connections, ambient temperature issues), it's less impactful the higher your base resistance was.

croak, i think vlad was referring to the statement by dannyben, not you!

 

[jazzvaper]

^^^^^ Well Vlad I have been happily using the SX with resistances in the 0.17-0.22 range. Hearing two long time ECF members complain/vent that the SX is 'not accurate', to which I agreed, or, that the SX 'does not hit the temp set point'; I just built the lowest coil so far: exactly 0.12. Guess?

It does hit the temp set point, and, (subjectively) feels more accurate.

I'll say it again in a slightly different way: just because you're and "expert" don't pretend you (I mean I) know everything.

Experience always trumps speculation...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yozhik]

Getting back to your car analogy regarding titanium (or twisted Kanthal/Ni200 for that matter). To me, it's more like you've fitted tires that are a different profile/size than stock, to improve traction, but you can't re-calibrate your speedometer to give you a precise reading. No big deal, some simple math tells you that 45 indicated is indeed 55 actual...and you're really only worried about not exceeding 55 so there's only one equivalent to memorize. Is it ideal? No, but you've got a hoopty with better performance at the slight cost of doing some mental math.

The tire/speedo analogy assumes a consistent relationship based on the diameter the tires. Unfortunately, materials differ quite a bit when it comes to temperature control. For example, the temperature coefficient of Nickel is non-linear above 100 C. I have no idea what the temperature coefficient of Titanium is from 20 C to 400 C, but regardless of whether it's linear or not, there's going to be two significant problems with using Titanium on a Nickel tuned device:

(1) The temperature limit set by the user is targeting a resistance, which is based on ni200. Since ni200 is non-linear, it will most likely not have any consistent relationship to other materials when one changes the temperature limit. Thus, to find a satisfactory temperature limit using non-nickel materials will pretty much always require trial and error by the user and it is unlikely the user will have any reasonable idea of what temperature is achieved.

(2) The precision of the temperature control algorithm is also dependent on the properties of Nickel, which are quite different from that of Titanium. Even if you can get an accurate temperature control with Titanium, it will be considerably less precise (i.e., stable) in use. The reason is that the optimization algorithm will make an adjustment based on Nickel, which will only be partially successful for Titanium. Thus, more iterations will be required to achieve the desired temperature with Titanium than Nickel, which in a dynamic environment means far less stability.

Therefore, using Titanium for a Nickel-optimized device will likely mean trial and error to find a working "temperature" setting, no knowledge of what the temperature is actually achieved other than what it feels like, and due to precision/stability problems such a "temperature" setting would need to be substantially less than an appropriate Nickel build if one wants to avoid dry hits or some other undesirable aspect of excessive temperature. In practical terms, this means that using Nickel one might be able to target 400 F and have sufficient stability to avoid bad stuff at 420F. With Titanium, one might be able to achieve 400F, but due to the lack the stability, one will encounter bad stuff. Consequently, one would have to back off with Titanium, which can result in a less desirable vape to the user.

 

[Vlad1]

I thought he was talking about titanium and the correction you have to factor for due to Ti's different resistance curve.

But if he was just doing the delta between the recommended 0.065 and 0.19 with Ni200, well, that's just wrong. There's no accuracy skew as you get away from the recommended resistance, there can't be. Thats the same as saying the accuracy is crap when it gets to 400F, or 500F, compared to 200F, because those temp numbers are just based on measured resistance that can closely approach 1.0 ohm when firing, depending on temp and joules selected.

And frankly, you can get more stability at higher base resistance, because if there IS a skew for mechanical reasons (connections, ambient temperature issues), it's less impactful the higher your base resistance was.

Ahh, that could explain my confusion. I didn't see anywhere anyone talking about using Titanium.

 

[PapaPro]

Hello all, I just wanted to pass on some good info from Cloud 9. They are one of the best UK vape stores we have. Anyway, I have a way to test and see if temp is working. Here's what to do.

Clean your contacts with alcohol first. Apparently, it is easy for gue to build up on the 510 pin on our M Class's (maybe all mods?). So give that a good clean first if you are having issues.

Then leave your M CLass and atomizer to reach room temp. Then do an OHMs calibration (do not fire the power button). Write down the OHMs. Remove and replace the atomiser and calibrate again, each time recording the numbers. It should read the same OHMs every time. Assuming temps are the same on both device and tank. If you are still getting inconsistent numbers, then you know you have a connection issue somewhere?

It would be good if everyone would try this and report back. Especially if you DON'T have a problem. Here are my numbers

0.154
0.101
0.086
0.082
0.088
0.083

I will test again with a new build and see if things change.

Good research people!

 

[Yozhik]

IDK I'm kind of confused when folks drop in and start talking about accuracy if not using .065Ω I have not seen or heard anyone report any inaccuracy with anything on the SXmini or SXmini M to date. I think there are a few that believe for whatever reason the world will come to an end and the device will not function correctly or accurately unless your at .065Ω

I'll repost Yihi's comment maybe that will do away with the absurd statements. I've been led to believe the last sentence in their statement was made due to some people using the wrong wire types either accidentally or intentionally in temp mode.

"Because the technology of M Class is the newest, and supports lower sub-ohm resistance, we suggest a 0.06-0.12 ohm base on Temco Ni-200. You can get the perfect experinces when you build the atomizer with the resistance 0.06ohm. However, if using the resistance above 0.3 ohm or Khanthal atomizers there will be variance and some unexpected behaviors may be observed in Joule mode."

You're far too optimistic me thinks.

I'd suspect that the reason for Yihi's statement is that proper coil design issues get more complicated and assumptions about material properties weaken (e.g., average coil temperature) as the resistance increases. So to avoid that, YiHi encourages us not to get stupid with our coil builds. Unfortunately, there's always some people that like getting really stupid with coil builds it seems. Regardless, it's probably an advisory based on coil problems, not anything specific to the device's accuracy. After all, dna40 says it supports up to a 1 ohm Nickel coil, but based on my experience, I'd say building such a coil would be a waste of time.

 

[Yozhik]

Oh, I'd also say maintaining appropriate airflow also becomes a problem with higher resistance. Supposing one could build a 30 wrap wonder of a 1 ohm nickel coil, I'd have no idea how one could provide it appropriate air flow.

 

[Croak]

Oh, I'd also say maintaining appropriate airflow also becomes a problem with higher resistance. Supposing one could build a 30 wrap wonder of a 1 ohm nickel coil, I'd have no idea how one could provide it appropriate air flow.

It's only a problem if you use thicker wire to reach those higher resistance numbers. Personally, I got my best results with DNA40 devices using 0.2 and up builds, and to get there in a sane manner, I used 30 or 32 gauge Ni200. 6-8 spaced wraps of 32 gauge, or 8 or 9 spaced wraps of 30 gauge/twisted 32 gauge on a 3mm mandrel makes for quite nice coils that'll fit in just about any atomizer. You'd need around 15 or 20 wraps to get that resistance with 28 or 26 gauge, respectively, and that's just not a workable scenario, from fitment to coil mass. It was even problematic making workable 28 gauge builds shooting for a 0.1 ohm target, and 26ga was pretty much out of the question for a DNA40.

That's where the SX350J shines, giving you the option to work with that thicker wire at more optimal coil sizes. But it doesn't preclude using thinner wire and higher resistances either, which has its own set of benefits (faster heatup/cooldown, a lower amp load/increased battery life). Mine works just fine at 0.2, matches up in performance/taste/indicated temps with my DNA40 devices using the same build and roughly the same power, so I'm confident that the accuracy is there.

 

[ChrisCanal]

i agree. So I ma running a 0.19ohm build on a ST mini and it is fantastic...go figure! Everyone is getting bent out of shape trying to build at 0.065 and the damn thing wortks great at any resistance i have tried (0.22 is the most so far)

Plus 2 on this. I have tried more builds than i can remember from 0.70 up to 0.22, and have all worked fantastic.

 

[ChrisCanal]

So this may be posted in the wrong place, but i have a question for someone out there. I just tried my first build with twisted 30G NI200, and it comes out to 0.10 in my Lemo2. I have up until this point stayed around 400F or higher with almost everything using 20-25J. With this build i am having trouble getting the mod to show higher than about 350F, even if i put it up to 30J. Does it just need more power with the twisted wire coil? I have never tried twisted wire in anything before. thanks and i apologize if this is a stupid question or posted in the wrong place. And it FEELS warmer btw.

 

[Croak]

Well, you're essentially running 27 or 28ga wire now, in terms of resistance (depends on how tight you twisted), and there is for sure more coil mass and surface area than with straight 30ga, so expect it to need more power to reach the same temps.

That said, it sounds like there's a resistance mismatch somewhere, that's usually the case when you can't hit your target temps eventually.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

You're far too optimistic me thinks.

I'd suspect that the reason for Yihi's statement is that proper coil design issues get more complicated and assumptions about material properties weaken (e.g., average coil temperature) as the resistance increases. So to avoid that, YiHi encourages us not to get stupid with our coil builds. Unfortunately, there's always some people that like getting really stupid with coil builds it seems. Regardless, it's probably an advisory based on coil problems, not anything specific to the device's accuracy. After all, dna40 says it supports up to a 1 ohm Nickel coil, but based on my experience, I'd say building such a coil would be a waste of time.

this is one way of thinking about this silliness...if you are building a kanthal coil, aiming for 0.7 and it came out at 0.8, how much sleep woukld you lose over that? Not much I guess! With TP, according to the 0.065 or bust school, a 0.1 deviaition in the build from some near arbitratry value is nothing short of catastrophic - people are going to die clearly. Of course this notion is unhinged. If yihi built a device that would only work properly within a 0.05 ohm window nobody in their right mind would buy it. Using the normal crappy little ohm meters that most of us use, we are lucky if we get within 0.1 or 0.2 ohms of the real value anyway. Just because the meter displays 11 decimal places, doesnt mean it is accurate. So, of course the m-class will work at 0.2 ohms. Even yihi say it is ok to 0.3 in J-mode for heavens sake. Mavbe its not optimal (whatever that means) but it will work...and indeed it does - very well in fact.

Im not beating on you personally but there is an urban myth growing here and its time it stopped I reckon lest TP vaping turns into soe kind of olympic sport for building prowess instead of a safer way of indulging in an enjoyable pastime!

 

[Fir3b1rd]

^^^ amen dude!
, someone said a few days ago that the magic "sweet spot" was a 0.065...
I'm sorry but I had a provari 2.5 and that mod you had to be in a specific window to get optimum performance.
I've always thought of computers and electronic devices as little magic boxes that do what I tell them to do, not the other way around.
Hence, I never bought a jellyfish. There is no sweet spot, im running a dual coil in a mako with 28g at a 0.081 and single with 26g at 0.73, I've been doing this long enough to know what to expect and both are performing fantasticly (hence my sweet spot). The mod is not mad at me at all.

My other issue is the misconception of temp control. These are not thermostats. You're not setting a 'target temp' I don't know where that concept started, but words have meanings and it needs to be said. If for no other reason than people considering buying one and lurking here.
It sets a limit so that you don't go over a user determined temperature limit. A side effect is that you stay close to that limit, not at that limit. Albeit this board does far better than a dna40 does in that regard. However,it is not a set it and forget situation.

 

[nic_fix]

mine is fine. I don't even know if it is accurate. i like the vape. i don't even know if mine is accurate but it is fine with me. i was talking about all the isues other people were having and just came up with that conclusion. some people are going nuts trying to get it right. i am just talking about page after page here. i am sure no fault of yihi. it does not matter to me. i don't know why some people are so caught up in this. if it matters to some people that is fine too. it does not even matter to me. .065 might be the max nos you can run on a boosted motor. not wider tires. just keep calm and vape. maybe i am too naïve to notice. i just got started on this because others told me my settings are not okay. working fine for me. i am sorry i decided to speak on the assumed behalf of others. i maintain i am very happy with it. no anger on my part. perhaps i could direct any anger towards the likes of grand innovations lol. i see what you mean about things could be much worse. it is in my hand and it works to my satisfaction. perhaps i misjudged the conclusion i came to. i don't think this matters so much within reason. i would not put a 3 ohm coil.if you are so concerned about your build go for it. you have every right to. i personally am spending all my time vaping. although my coils are .124 on average and i pay more for them but i am pleased with the whole thing. as i said for some reason the st is leak proof on yihi. i am not going to complain about that either! i just don't think so much effort needs to be put into this but that is just my opinion. of course you are welcome to do whatever you wish. i certainly don't mind. i just thought a lot of people wre getting too frustrated. that is the only reason i said that. i am tickled pink with it personally. my paint if fine as well. i was just stating what i observed like 200 times in this thread. my bad then.

 

[ChrisCanal]

Well, you're essentially running 27 or 28ga wire now, in terms of resistance (depends on how tight you twisted), and there is for sure more coil mass and surface area than with straight 30ga, so expect it to need more power to reach the same temps.

That said, it sounds like there's a resistance mismatch somewhere, that's usually the case when you can't hit your target temps eventually.

Thanks for this. Just surprised how much more power it needs to get to temp. And seems warmer at said temp than before. That is the part I guess I was confused on. Thought it would feel the same at same set temp, but it does not.

 

[Bikenstein]

Did my first ni build on the Lemo 2, .09 ohm (7x3mm). I didn't calibrate the coil and it went to a 1.53 ohm reading. It vaped but tasted bad and temp would only read 32. I started over after it cooled and calibrated the coil. I set it at 10j and 380 It worked, taste was ok and kept the temp at 380 but not much vape so I changed the wick out and it's better. Now I'm at 25j and 450 but not really impressed with it yet. Battery died before I could test it further. I put the Lemo on my VaporShark set the temp at 400. It's showin the coil locked at .12 ohm. If I turn it up over 18 it flashes temp protected. Maybe I've got vapors tongue or something but I'm not getting good flavor.

 

[2legsshrt]

You're far too optimistic me thinks.

I'd suspect that the reason for Yihi's statement is that proper coil design issues get more complicated and assumptions about material properties weaken (e.g., average coil temperature) as the resistance increases. So to avoid that, YiHi encourages us not to get stupid with our coil builds. Unfortunately, there's always some people that like getting really stupid with coil builds it seems. Regardless, it's probably an advisory based on coil problems, not anything specific to the device's accuracy. After all, dna40 says it supports up to a 1 ohm Nickel coil, but based on my experience, I'd say building such a coil would be a waste of time.

Exactly right this is a quote I got from Varitube and I am sure when he wrote 0.8 he meant .08
As for resistance...what works for one person may not be someone elses preference. Use what you're happy with. YiHi suggests that lower point because its calibrated around that point and I suspect the further away you get the error potential likely grows since we're dealing with such small measures of resistance. But I run at 0.8 normally and love it. SO use what works for you. Try other stuff if you think based on suggestions but in the end only you know what you like....the others are using what they like. Thats the beauty of this mod.....once you find that point it stays there

 

[2legsshrt]

Well I ordered some 26 just to give it a try. Not sure if I will have to turn up the Joules to get it heated or not will see.

 

[2legsshrt]

How many volts are you going to have to push to get a coil 26AWG 7 wraps 3mm to get it to temp. If you have to push 2v you are going to be at 31a 61w