TC-TCR Temperature Control TCR Value Solution for Different Coils/Mods

[DaveP]

Never had an issue with non-spaced coils and TC. The above picture I posted was a SS316L fused Clapton, the device read the rise in resistance as it should.

I always wondered about fused coils. Is there a specially calibrated setting that you use for coils other than standard spaced single coils? I only used single spaced SS316L coils for my TC mods.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I always wondered about fused coils. Is there a specially calibrated setting that you use for coils other than standard spaced single coils? I only used single spaced SS316L coils for my TC mods.

I am not aware of any special settings for claptons or fused type coils. I have used simple wire, claptons (and fused) and even mesh – each has its own characteristics in terms of flavour/vapor production. But they all function as they should in TC.

And to go into further detail, the Evolv Replay feature is IMO is more precise than TC. Temp Control sets a max resistance to where it does not allow the coil to exceed. Replay reads the entire resistance curve and mimics that to a T. If contact and or Clapton type coils fluctuated in resistance, Replay would not function as it should.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

The 75C is not really a chip I am interested in, but Rebel mods makes 75C based mods. JAC Vapour makes a DNA 75 based mod which is quite popular, but is limited to an 18650 cell. You’ll find many higher end companies use the 75C chip, like Vicious Ant if you are willing to pay the price of admission.

I know you said you do not want a 250C, but sometimes you have to weigh your options. The Lost Vape Paranormal is not that much bigger than many single 21700 devices just as an example. But what you lose in size, you gain in efficiency and perhaps even longer run time. Just throwing that out there!!

Thanks I looked into the Rebel and didn’t like the look of the design bulky? Jac and vicious ant have no suppliers in The U.S and I looked a little not to extensively. Do you know of suppliers?

Paranormal seems interesting if you say it is small enough. I think there is a supply issue with it as well on some sites it is reported as sold out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

What you can do with an open coil is verify the temp control of the Mod somewhat. If you set the Mod at 400, does your probe read 400 +/- 50 degrees, then try 300, 350, etc. It can validate (magnitudes better than cotton) if your Mod is attempting to control temp, but it wont validate the Mods precision. It WILL NOT simulate vaping, but it will only tell you if the temp control is in the ballpark.

Help me out there please with this point, just to prepare my mind for this.
I will for sure be doing an open chimney test with the method you mentioned,
but how should I go about doing this exactly:

1- Set TCR to 88
2- Place the probe tip between a dry cotton and one of the coil wraps?
3- Set temperature to lets say a safe 250F
4- Pulse the mod 5+ times @ 2-4 second trigger press's to heat the coil and most
importantly allow the thermometer to catch up
5- when the thermometer starts catching up, a long press of lets say 10 seconds
6- That 10 seconds duration will tell you the most constant temperature?
7- Adjust TCR and repeat steps 4 to 6

Am I on the right track?

From your e-liquid boiling point study

 

[Coolsiggy]

I really enjoyed this exchange of information and views, thanks for this effort. I suspect that after all is said and done the mouth remains the best method for determining both the temp and TCR values when using our mods given all the testing and environment variables. I'm beginning to think that the pulse modes may prove more consistent, but then consistency in vaping may not be feasible.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

I really enjoyed this exchange of information and views, thanks for this effort. I suspect that after all is said and done the mouth remains the best method for determining both the temp and TCR values when using our mods given all the testing and environment variables. I'm beginning to think that the pulse modes may prove more consistent, but then consistency in vaping may not be feasible.

Can't agree with you more there, I can tell you this so far is my observation with mouth taste.

Steam Engine gives this "flame color" change starting at 16w, if you go into VW mode
and set you wattage to 16w, 2-5 puffs later you will get a feel for the heat level.
16W is the minimum for any meaningful vape btw at this build.
Then switching to TC you will just know it when you are at the right temperature "if you do this right away" so as you don't lose the "feel" for it.

My issue is not there, my issue is, is this mod firing at this right wattage in TC or not and is it giving me 200-300-350F temperatures as the screen or not? I can put up with 25-50F difference but not more.

Vaporesso Armour Pro has this little neat feature for a split second it does this I noticed:
when you press the fire button
1- it kicks in the preheat wattage (for me I set it to 50W)
2- then it goes to 14-20w for a split second "Steam Engine heat flux levels"
3- then split second later it dies down to 2-15w to hold that temperature

So steam engine is helping in that regards to give me "a feel" for the correct vape temperatures.

I hope this is making sense.

Edit: btw I know before it kicks in the preheat wattage most mods do this regardless
if you set the preheat or not it fires at full wattage before your preheat wattage,
I am also accounting for that glitch or feature? anyway you get the point

 

[mikepetro]

Help me out there please with this point, just to prepare my mind for this.
I will for sure be doing an open chimney test with the method you mentioned,
...........
From your e-liquid boiling point study

OK, there are a lot of different points in this so I am going to split up my responses.

First, the photo you showed was only to display how I routed the thermocouple. I snaked it in through the airflow holes up into the chamber and then placed the tip of the probe under a middle coil loop.

The photo you showed was just to show how I pulled off routing the thermocouple into the atty. What you dont see is that I then put the chimney on, and the tank on, and then vaped it normally so I could see the temps under real-life conditions. If you read some of my other testing blogs you would see that brought into context, ie all my testing was under actual use, NOT open chamber on the bench.

This is how it looked when I did the actual testing.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Can't agree with you more there, I can tell you this so far is my observation with mouth taste.

Steam Engine gives this "flame color" change starting at 16w, if you go into VW mode
and set you wattage to 16w, 2-5 puffs later you will get a feel for the heat level.
16W is the minimum for any meaningful vape btw at this build.
Then switching to TC you will just know it when you are at the right temperature "if you do this right away" so as you don't lose the "feel" for it.

My issue is not there, my issue is, is this mod firing at this right wattage in TC or not and is it giving me 200-300-350F temperatures as the screen or not? I can put up with 25-50F difference but not more.

Vaporesso Armour Pro has this little neat feature for a split second it does this I noticed:
when you press the fire button
1- it kicks in the preheat wattage (for me I set it to 50W)
2- then it goes to 14-20w for a split second "Steam Engine heat flux levels"
3- then split second later it dies down to 2-15w to hold that temperature

So steam engine is helping in that regards to give me "a feel" for the correct vape temperatures.

I hope this is making sense.

Edit: btw I know before it kicks in the preheat wattage most mods do this regardless
if you set the preheat or not it fires at full wattage before your preheat wattage,
I am also accounting for that glitch or feature? anyway you get the point

I would ignore Steam’s Heat Flux values. They are not providing any benefit in your case. As stated, they do not factor in the influence juice and airflow has on the coil. And they certainly do not factor in pre-heat and modulation of your power output. The Heat Flux also does not factor in Specific Heat Capacity of the metal and the coils mass and how time (the duration energy is applied) also influences the temperature of the coil.

Dry fire a coil – it’s colour changes with time which indicates its temperature is increasing. The rate of this increase is determined by the amount of energy applied, the duration of applied energy, the Specific Heat Capacity of the metal and the coils mass. Now add a saturated wick and draw air over that coil – you have now completely changed how that coil heats and its delta temperature even if the same amount of energy (wattage) was applied and for the same duration.

As mentioned earlier, Heat Flux is a calculation of power/surface area. 2 coils of different metals can have the same surface area, therefore the same heat flux. But their properties of Specific Heat Capacity and mass dictates how that coil heats up. 16 watts applied to a SS coil will have a different outcome than 16 watts applied to a Titanium coil of the same dimensions. Because their dimensions are the same, their HF value is also the same.

This demonstrates the many variables involved and how one should not focus on the HF values within Steam and assume they are reaching a goal. It Is much too complex than that.

 

[mikepetro]

1- Set TCR to 88

Ok, where did you get this TCR from?

The TCR for SS316L should be somewhere between 84 and 130 depending on the manufacturer and the rated purity. Thats a pretty wide range. Easy to see why you might be having trouble.

Again, sourcing wire from a vape store is dubious. The 316L they are spooling this week might have a TCR of 92, but next week they get another 5lb spool in from a different source and it might have a TCR of 115. Master of Clouds is not going to change their labeling, they are just going to keep selling it.

I will make another post of how I would approach trying to Identify the right TCR for this stuff through testing. Just know that any two spools will possibly be very different (unless they came off the same bulk spool) so you would have to test every spool you buy.

Personally, I like this wire myself:
Non-Resistance Wire - Wire & Cable - Products

The TCR of "pure" Grade 1 TI is consistent from MFG to MFG. Therefor I dont have to go through this TCR guessing game when I buy new wire, as long as I buy it from a reputable source.

If you do decide to try TI, Just know that you should never dry burn TI, especially not until it turns red, temps above ~900f will create TI Oxide which is not something you want to inhale. It shows up as a white powder that is stuck to the surface of the wire, so once the oxide is created it stays on the coil and could wind up in your lungs. You dont want to vape it anymore after that. If I do a dry burn, I never go above 600F, below the temps where the oxide is created.

 

[mikepetro]

Help me out there please with this point, just to prepare my mind for this.
I will for sure be doing an open chimney test with the method you mentioned,
but how should I go about doing this exactly:

1- Set TCR to 88
2- Place the probe tip between a dry cotton and one of the coil wraps?
3- Set temperature to lets say a safe 250F
4- Pulse the mod 5+ times @ 2-4 second trigger press's to heat the coil and most
importantly allow the thermometer to catch up
5- when the thermometer starts catching up, a long press of lets say 10 seconds
6- That 10 seconds duration will tell you the most constant temperature?
7- Adjust TCR and repeat steps 4 to 6

Am I on the right track?

You are on the right track. Here are some considerations.

• I personally would do a CLOSED chamber test while vaping. You have a skinny thermocouple coming, figure out how to get it in there. This eliminates many of the variables that could result in getting it wrong.
• The skinny 30AWG thermocouple takes about 2secs (or less) to show a full response.
• Put the metal tip of the probe directly under one loop of the coil, as long as you dont touch 2 loops of the coil you wont short anything out.
• In no event do you want to use a dry wick. Do all testing with a normally saturated wick.
  
• Since your Meter has no data logging abilities you might try playing with the Min/Max/Avg setting. I suspect that AVG may show you the most useful data.
  
• In my experience, most people vape a properly calibrated setup between 350f and 450f for MTL. If your setup (Mod/atty) is accurate you will not see much vapor at all below 350f (see Boiling Point chart). So I would start testing at a setting of 400F on your Mod.
  • Starting with 400f, take a normal 4-5s vape hit, but dont inhale in case things are way off. If doing open chamber I would fire the Mod for 5-6 secs on each iteration. Adjust your TCR until both your mod and your thermocouple say 400. Once you think you got it, allow the Mod to cool to room temp and repeat, things shouldnt have changed. Also, this would the time to start inhaling your vapes since you know you are now in safe territory.
    
  • Then try 350 and 450. You might need to make minor tweaks to get all 3 points right.
  • I wouldnt worry about above or below 350-450 since that would be outside of your normal operating range anyway. You could test above/below if you like but I wouldnt change the TCR based on those readings. What you want is the best accuracy you can get in the 350-450 range since that is where you will most likely be vaping.
    
  • Again, I am recommending actually vaping these tests via a closed chamber since you have all the stuff needed to do it, but if you insist on doing an open chamber make sure the wick stays well saturated.

On a side note. I dont remember the construction of the Kayfun, its been years since I used them, but here is a trick I used when I was doing the temp testing for folks using VW Mods. I setup many different attys to allow thermocouple testing while actually vaping. One of tricks I found that worked on some of the most difficult designs was simply slipping the probe through driptip into the chimney and then into the coil. You would need to thread the probe through while the pieces are separate, then carefully screw everything back together. This might be feasible for your Kayfun.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

Great explanation thank you!

I am aware of your test method and setup, fully aware.
The tip about the Keyfun is indeed handy and I have been thinking about it
especially on the Kayfun lite 2019, the air hole is almost completely shut as I like a tight draw.
The only way in there is through the driptip and thank you for the pictures!

Open chimney test I like having the option to perform to test the accuracy somewhat of the
devices, for my primary device I will most likely do the closed chimney setup.

My only worry with closed chimney is that I know I will need to increase temperature and
possible TCR to achieve a nice vape, as I will be fighting 3 cooling factors
1- Air flow
2- Turbulence inside the chimney from every direction
3- E-liquid wicking cotton consistently and cooling the coil

I am trying to avoid spikes past 200c if in case for example the tank is out of liquid and the
cotton is getting dry.

My logic is saying open chimney will yield less temperature and less TCR adjustment to achieve desired screen temperature.

by the way I have also sourced Temco wire in SS 28ga & 30ga.
Thanks

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

This morning I got the my Yihi order,
Yihi SX Mini SL Class

I put protective rubber sleeve on it, plugged in the computer
and checked firmware is up to date.

It has a TCR set value of 90,
@90 TCR and 300f-400f it is not giving any decent vape I would say minimal

in comparison my Armour Pro vapes nicely at TCR 109 and 300f-350f

I changed the TCR value in the SL Class to 109 and still not much of an improvement,I am very disappointed with the unit as is right now and possibly I will need to get my probes to test it further unless someone can point out an issue I missed.

Edit: Well on this device things are done a little different, you set your desired temp and then you switch to joules to set it, joules is similar to wattage, so setting it to 16-20 joules (wattage) and then you can switch back to temp mode and that is what the device will be firing at. confusing but will test further...

 

[mikepetro]

My only worry with closed chimney is that I know I will need to increase temperature and
possible TCR to achieve a nice vape, as I will be fighting 3 cooling factors
1- Air flow
2- Turbulence inside the chimney from every direction
3- E-liquid wicking cotton consistently and cooling the coil

But that is EXACTLY what you want to do. You want to simulate the way you actually vape, and the way you vape includes these cooling factors, therefor those same factors should be included when calibrating a Mod.

I am trying to avoid spikes past 200c if in case for example the tank is out of liquid and the
cotton is getting dry.

If you have a properly calibrated Mod, these spikes will not occur. If the tank runs dry, the wick wont require as many watts to maintain 400f, once the wick runs dry the watts will drop even lower to maintain 400. The end result is that with TC you dont get dry hits. What happens is when my tank and wick run dry I just get anemic hits, like puffing on nothing. Thats when I look at my tank and say "OH! I need to refill".

My logic is saying open chimney will yield less temperature and less TCR adjustment to achieve desired screen temperature.

I disagree. While it might require less "watts", it will still require the exact same temperature. 400 degrees is 400 degrees whether the chimney is open or not. Load equals temp+airflow+juiceflow. With an open chimney you will just get to 400f with fewer watts because you took airflow and juiceflow out of the equation. You still wont know if it will vape the same when you put full load on it.

What a closed chimney calibration gives is the TOTAL PICTURE and that picture includes juice and air flow.

What it boils down to is:

• Crude (dry cotton)
  
• Better (Open chimney)
  
• Best (Closed Chimney)

So even open chimney with a thermocouple is magnitudes better than Dry Cotton burns.

 

[mikepetro]

BTW, just to throw another curve-ball at you.

IMHO, Rayon wicks better than Cotton. YMMV

Rayon vs 3 leading brands of Cotton - Head to Head test | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

BTW, just to throw another curve-ball at you.

IMHO, Rayon wicks better than Cotton. YMMV

Rayon vs 3 leading brands of Cotton - Head to Head test | E-Cigarette Forum

No you didn't!

You know what, here is your findings.
I will stick to the highlighted in red thank you!

Results:

• Initial Capillary: (defined as how fast the fluid rises through the wick)
  1. Rayon
     
  2. Koh Gen Do
  3. Native Wicks Platinum (actually a very close 2nd IMHO)
  4. VCC Vapers Choice

 

[Punk In Drublic]

This morning I got the my Yihi order,
Yihi SX Mini SL Class

I put protective rubber sleeve on it, plugged in the computer
and checked firmware is up to date.

It has a TCR set value of 90,
@90 TCR and 300f-400f it is not giving any decent vape I would say minimal

in comparison my Armour Pro vapes nicely at TCR 109 and 300f-350f

I changed the TCR value in the SL Class to 109 and still not much of an improvement,I am very disappointed with the unit as is right now and possibly I will need to get my probes to test it further unless someone can point out an issue I missed.

Edit: Well on this device things are done a little different, you set your desired temp and then you switch to joules to set it, joules is similar to wattage, so setting it to 16-20 joules (wattage) and then you can switch back to temp mode and that is what the device will be firing at. confusing but will test further...

I will assume you have entered the TCR value in the correct method for the Yihi. Their values consist of 6 digits where Vaporesso shortens this to 3 digits (most likely to work within a limited screen real estate). So Yihi would be 0.00090. This may not be the true TCR value of the metal you are using, but believe it is a good starting point for SS316L that should at least provide a functional vape.

It is absolutely critical that the coil resistance is read at room temperature. If you have dry fired, or vaped that coil in wattage before hand (as an example), it’s resistance has increased in correlation to heat. Viewing DJLsb review of the SL Class, he stated attaching an atomizer and pressing the fire button the device reads resistance. If it is pulsing the coil, the coils resistance will change. But he stated by attaching a room temp atomizer and pressing the joystick, the device will read resistance without firing. I would use this method, but again stress the importance of reading the resistance at room temp.

Looking at @mikepetro temperature tests, he concluded temperatures between 325°F and 370°F produced minimal vapor depending on the composition of the juice. So setting a temperature of 350°F may not be sufficient. Personally, I would start at 400°F and adjust in small +/- 5°F increments and without changing the TCR value.

Given you do not know the true TCR value of the metal, you will never achieve an accurate temperature without taking extra measures such as using a thermocouple. Adding in any deficiencies of the device is just going to exploit this even further. You are chasing an unknown! So your objective should be acquiring a satisfying vape while mitigating dry burns. Once you acquire the thermocouple you can now take the true temperature of the coil (assuming properly) and re-evaluate your objectives. If you want to vape at temperatures <350°F, but that temp is not providing satisfying results then you’re kinda at a stand still and should rethink your objectives.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

Punk In Drublic

Thank you!
Yes I watched the reviews especially Dj's review,
The mod does not read the resistance unless you press/hold the middle button.
then you can adjust or accept that measurement.
It is very precise I must say at room temperature.

Been vaping it at TCR 93 at 400-420F, and it is performing "okay".
Forgot to mention it has this ANNOYING buzzing sound when you fire it,
YiHi says it is for "joules feature" and it is normal, I say bs..
but my ears are getting used to it until I get a better mod.

As for the measurement, I have everything ready except for the Tamco wire
which should be here Friday, As soon as I get that I will begin the tests on the
Coil build & Mod.

I ran into an issue though with the Kayfun Lite 2019, it is tight space and it is a bottom fill style tank, I might use my Kayfun Prime instead to do the test of Coil/Mod.

I will definitely report back my findings this weekend..

 

[mikepetro]

Been vaping it at TCR 93 at 400-420F, and it is performing "okay".

That sounds a lot more realistic than some of the other temps you mentioned earlier. I suspect you are getting pretty close.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Been vaping it at TCR 93 at 400-420F, and it is performing "okay".
Forgot to mention it has this ANNOYING buzzing sound when you fire it,
YiHi says it is for "joules feature" and it is normal, I say bs..
but my ears are getting used to it until I get a better mod.

In temperature control, the YiHi operates using Pulse Frequency Modulation, or PFM. PFM works by applying a fixed amount of voltage for a fixed interval, but by adjusting that on/off frequency of applied voltage it can modulate power. The rattle snake sound you are hearing is the circuit quickly turning on or off that voltage over the duration of your vape. The frequency of this on/off state will determine the output. Maintaining a constant voltage will have more on states than off. Reducing the output will have more off states than on. It is Tuesday, I have promised myself to never conduct PFM or PWM math on Tuesdays so if you wish to learn more about this I would give Google a shot.

Both PFM (and PWM – Pulse Width Modulation) are quite common, such as a Class D audio amplifier. But they usually operate at frequencies beyond the human hearing. Those that do not may employ a filter to suppress the sound. Obviously YiHi felt a filter was not needed.

I do not understand YiHi's implementation of Joules. Suspect this was done just to be different. But it said to set your Joules as you would Watts. 20 Joules = 20 watts.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

It is Tuesday, I have promised myself to never conduct PFM or PWM math on Tuesdays so if you wish to learn more about this I would give Google a shot.

Thank you for explaining this "feature", I seen contradicting ideas of what it is and their use of joules, and more seem to agree they are trying to be different than Evolv's DNA for legal reasons, in this case joules is used as lawyer's term.

Some suggest joules is an applied power in 1 second and it doubles afterward, if it doubles wouldn't you get dry-hit galore? I would assume.

Found this put this way,

Joules and watts are not directly convertible. They are different units. A watt, (W) is a unit of power, whist a joule (J) is a unit of energy or work. An electrical volt potential times a current of electrical flow is one watt power. If one newton of force moves against an object for a one-meter distance, one joule of work is done. If it done in one second, it is one watt of power.

The power P in watts (W) is equal to the energy E in joules (J), divided by the time period t in seconds (s):

P(W) = E(J)/ t(s)
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-between-joules-and-watts