Temerature Controlled Devices?

[Rossum]

Making a nonsensical statement and not backing it up with any proof or reasoning is worth exactly zero. I could claim I get a month of use out of a single 18650 and it would be meaningless unless I provide some kind of hard data.

Heck, I'm at 9 months on one of 18650s. Of course, I've recharged it a few times.

Titanium allows more "conventional" builds than nickel does. You can use thicker wire and you don't need lots of wraps or a huge ID to keep the resistance reasonable. Is it possible that such builds are more efficient? Honestly, I don't know, I'm just speculating. I gave up on nickel within a few days of getting my first DNA40 back in October. I decided to try titanium because I already had it laying around from previous experiments with it, and quickly concluded that it had none of the drawbacks of nickel. I only see one downside to it and that's the fact that the DNA40 isn't "calibrated" for it; you need to set the temperature limit lower than the temperature you really want.

 

[stevegmu]

Once ProVape releases temp. control and their tank, I think it will be a more viable option for some...

Gold wire is easier to find than titanium. Is it just the cost for some which is the issue, or too difficult to work with?

 

[Rossum]

Once ProVape releases temp. control

If it takes them as long as it took them to do VW, that will be in 2018 or thereabouts.

Gold wire is easier to find than titanium. Is it just the cost for some which is the issue, or too difficult to work with?

Gold has a similar temperature coefficient as titanium, so it could work, but it's resistivity is even lower than nickel, which is rather undesirable. I don't think I want to make coils using 36 or 38 gauge wire that's super-soft.

Then there is also the cost. $1200 an ounce vs. $7.00 a pound for the raw material.

 

[stevegmu]

If it takes them as long as it took them to do VW, that will be in 2018 or thereabouts.


Gold has a similar temperature coefficient as titanium, so it could work, but it's resistivity is even lower than nickel, which is rather undesirable. I don't think I want to make coils using 36 or 38 gauge wire that's super-soft.

Then there is also the cost. $1200 an ounce vs. $7.00 a pound for the raw material.

I imagine it will work well and be easy to use once they do release it, rather than just rush to the market like Evolv, but I guess Evolv were trying to beat the Chinese to the market...

I am not talking about pure gold, more like 14Karat. From what I have seen, around $7 worth of gold wire would be enough to make a coil...

 

[edyle]

Personally, around 0.25 ohms. Single coil of twisted 3x30 in a small-chambered, bottom-fed atty, with a relatively tight draw, wattage in the high teens, temp limit set to 350F.

So with temp limit set; I guess you are using a dna40 type device which thinks you are using Ni200?
And you use 3x30 titanium so as to get down to an ohm value that the device would accept?

 

[RCHagy74]

I imagine it will work well and be easy to use once they do release it, rather than just rush to the market like Evolv, but I guess Evolv were trying to beat the Chinese to the market...

More to beat the FDA.
Many governmental officials have already brought up temperature, and buggy or not, having an actual device on the market shows more than any spec sheet or even beta tester box, that we are vaping to be off cigs and do it as healthily as possible.

I am not fond of being a beta.1 tester myself... Something tells me though with all of us early adopters bitc... um, giving feedback, we will hopefully see the next version live up to what we expect from Evolv.

 

[stevegmu]

More to beat the FDA.
Many governmental officials have already brought up temperature, and buggy or not, having an actual device on the market shows more than any spec sheet or even beta tester box, that we are vaping to be off cigs and do it as healthily as possible.

I am not fond of being a beta.1 tester myself... Something tells me though with all of us early adopters bitc... um, giving feedback, we will hopefully see the next version live up to what we expect from Evolv.

I don't think temp. control will be in the first round of regulations, should there be any, but what if they want to limit watts to 20, rather than require temp. control? That pretty much leaves only ProVape with a viable APV on the market...

 

[Equality 7-2521]

Titanium is hard to get a hold of. In the US, I've only found 24 gauge on Amazon and 30 gauge from Rio Grande (a jewelry supply house). I have some of each and I wish there was 26 and/or 28 available. Personally, I prefer 3x30 twisted over 24, but that doesn't mean it's optimal everyone.

I suspect the much greater availability may have been one of the factors that influenced Evolv to calibrate for and recommend nickel instead of titanium.

Hello, Rossum,
I sort of followed alot of the posts you made on the Ti wire thread I think Imeo or the guy who owns smokeguru started and you seemed to be giving those guys a bit of grief over Ti wire, and had some intersting points..Imeo was pretty fanatical.........I wanted to ask you your feelings about Ti wire and Temp control.....is kanthal and ss mesh over with?are gennys over with? I see alot of people saying that temp control devices are the furture, but nobody really saying why, and in what regards....are we talking about all styles of vaping or are we talking about the what used to be known as the .2 ohm and below cloud chasing....I usually vape gennys around .8 to 1 ohm and I don't get dry hits or burn juice, so what does temp control offer .....also this oxidizing issue I hear diffrent things about I'd hate to give up ,u ss mesh,and kanthal I hate limp wicks, so is ther a compelling reason to adandon them...it seems you have a pretty thourough understanding and a somewhat balanced view on these issues.

 

[caramel]

I'm looking at an electric kettle right now. Has no coil and no wick. No dry hit either - if there's no liquid it ain't heating. Best coil is no coil?

 

[Rossum]

I imagine it will work well and be easy to use

That would require getting rid of the ridiculous single-button interface.

I am not talking about pure gold, more like 14Karat.

Most alloys have a much lower temperature coefficient than pure metals do. This makes me skeptical that a readily available alloy would work.

From what I have seen, around $7 worth of gold wire would be enough to make a coil...

Which is roughly 2500x what any nickel or titanium wire would cost. Why? What advantage do you think it would have?

 

[RCHagy74]

I don't think temp. control will be in the first round of regulations, should there be any, but what if they want to limit watts to 20, rather than require temp. control? That pretty much leaves only ProVape with a viable APV on the market...

Ugh, what ifs. I really dislike what ifs... and that is all there really is at this point.
We have ...... doing everything in their power to maintain the status quo and there is little we as individuals can do.

Now before I go any further down that road under the influence from my depressing day on tweeted vaping news... Evolv has released a 25 watt TP board. So they should be able to up or down wattage with relative ease.

 

[Rossum]

So with temp limit set; I guess you are using a dna40 type device which thinks you are using Ni200?

Correct.

And you use 3x30 titanium so as to get down to an ohm value that the device would accept?

No, I'm confident the board would work just as well with a single strand of 30 gauge. If I remember their specs correctly, Evolv specifies between 0.1 and 1.0 ohms for temperature limiting coils. I just like the vape from twisted coils better. I also don't like how flimsy a 30 gauge coil tends to be. Anyway, this is what works for me and my vaping style.

 

[caramel]

Which is roughly 2500x what any nickel or titanium wire would cost. Why? What advantage do you think it would have?

Same as a gold tooth over a ceramic one. Shiny!!!

 

[Rossum]

Hello, Rossum,
I sort of followed alot of the posts you made on the Ti wire thread I think Imeo or the guy who owns smokeguru started and you seemed to be giving those guys a bit of grief over Ti wire

That was last summer, before any temp control or temp limiting devices were announced. I'm not at all keen on using pure Ti on a mod without temp limiting due to its tendency to oxidize (documented in the blog entry I wrote at the time). What got me annoyed was Imeo's insistence that Kanthal is "unhealthy" without him offering a shred of evidence, and then his claim that the ESG's wire was pure titanium plus "magic". This set off my BS alarm rather loudly

I wanted to ask you your feelings about Ti wire and Temp control.....is kanthal and ss mesh over with? are gennys over with?

Pure Ti wire with temp control rocks. ESG's Ti alloy does not work consistently with a DNA40, and apparently it doesn't work with Imeo's VIR either.

I still use Kanthal in my conventional mods. I don't see the benefit of ESG's Ti alloy since that alloy contains all the elements that ostensibly make Kanthal bad.

I don't know anything about Gennys or SS mesh as a wick since I've never used either one.

I see alot of people saying that temp control devices are the furture, but nobody really saying why, and in what regards.

I think it's primarily a question of not producing aldehydes. A coil that's not over-powered using a wick that can keep up with it probably doesn't produce any significant quantity of them anyway, but temperature limiting should ensure it, no matter how badly the user screws up.

 

[Technonut]

More to beat the FDA.
Many governmental officials have already brought up temperature, and buggy or not, having an actual device on the market shows more than any spec sheet or even beta tester box, that we are vaping to be off cigs and do it as healthily as possible.

I am not fond of being a beta.1 tester myself... Something tells me though with all of us early adopters bitc... um, giving feedback, we will hopefully see the next version live up to what we expect from Evolv.

That's what was stated in the interview conducted between ECF founder SmokeyJoe, and Brandon & John from Evolv:

http://vaping.com/news/exclusive-in...om-evolv?_ga=1.211631504.461273743.1425490930

John: Well, I have to keep my mouth shut because we have several ongoing projects, so obviously we’re not just working on this. What I will say is that we look at the e-cigarette as a separable problem. So, we’re attacking the vapor integrity in the DNA40, and really we’re doing this much earlier because we were kind of pushed into it by the FDA. We need to come up with a regulatory framework where we can guarantee that we know what’s in the vapor stream, or we’re never going to see an approvable product. But, we see there’s a finite number of things to solve before the e-cigarette is as good or better than a tobacco cigarette.

 

[dr g]

That's what was stated in the interview conducted between ECF founder SmokeyJoe, and Brandon & John from Evolv:

http://vaping.com/news/exclusive-in...om-evolv?_ga=1.211631504.461273743.1425490930

The one and only company innovating to address FDA concerns and everyone treats them like .....

 

[Equality 7-2521]

That was last summer, before any temp control or temp limiting devices were announced. I'm not at all keen on using pure Ti on a mod without temp limiting due to its tendency to oxidize (documented in the blog entry I wrote at the time). What got me annoyed was Imeo's insistence that Kanthal is "unhealthy" without him offering a shred of evidence, and then his claim that the ESG's wire was pure titanium plus "magic". This set off my BS alarm rather loudly


Pure Ti wire with temp control rocks. ESG's Ti alloy does not work consistently with a DNA40, and apparently it doesn't work with Imeo's VIR either.

I still use Kanthal in my conventional mods. I don't see the benefit of ESG's Ti alloy since that alloy contains all the elements that ostensibly make Kanthal bad.

I don't know anything about Gennys or SS mesh as a wick since I've never used either one.


I think it's primarily a question of not producing aldehydes. A coil that's not over-powered using a wick that can keep up with it probably doesn't produce any significant quantity of them anyway, but temperature limiting should ensure it, no matter how badly the user screws up.

So you also feel oxidation is something to be avoided at all costs? and when you say a coil over-powered what are we talking about, are we talking about .8 ohms or are we talking about .2 ohms.

 

[Mike 586]

That's the problem; the way it's being done so far uses Ni200 wire at low ohms like 0.1 ohm, but 0.1 ohm could easily come from electrical contact points;
that low ohm operating range is a big hurdle that needs to be crossed otherwise temperature control won't be practical for consumer grade.

Yeah, I've noticed a lot of times that DNA40s would fire pretty screwy simply because the connection on the 510 changed by a few tenths of an ohm or after not touching it for a while because of the refinement pulse. One results in it hitting WAY TOO HARD, the other results in anemic vapor.

...I'm very curious to see in the next week or two if YiHi one upped Evolve on that count with the M class SX mini when it arrives in the mail.

 

[stevegmu]

The one and only company innovating to address FDA concerns and everyone treats them like .....

I don't have a problem with them; they just don't make a mod, so I will never own a DNA powered device... Their chip and board may be great, but put in a box mod and especially a poorly made China box; worthless to me...

 

[Rossum]

So you also feel oxidation is something to be avoided at all costs?

No, not really. I still dry-burn my Kanthal coils. Now oxidation of pure titanium, to the point that the oxide flakes off the wire, yeah, that I'm going to avoid.

and when you say a coil over-powered what are we talking about, are we talking about .8 ohms or are we talking about .2 ohms.

You can't define it by resistance or power alone. Other factors must be taken into account. What's the geometry of the coil? How much heat flux (miliwatts per square mm of surface area)? Is the coil staying properly wetted? How much air is flowing over it? Temperature limiting intrinsically compensates for all of that and keeps you "safe".