Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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MacTechVpr

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Thank you Mac and thank you for the links :). It's funny how on the calculator link there is an ad for the coil master :)

Glad you liked the workup. That's some nice coil selection.

It was never cigarettes, nicotine or tobacco supe…it's addiction to the supply chain we needed to be scared of.

<shrug>

Good luck.

:)
 

turbocad6

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turned into a lot of work and it's still not finished yet but it's working enough for testing and it works really good so far :) has enough torque even at medium speed to just snap 26 ga kanthal if I adjust it to too much tension, but turned down to a little less than snapping tension and it's cranking out some super high tension coils in just a few seconds. it's easy to keep the perfect angle of feed to force the wire almost on top of it's self but not quite, this really forces the coils tightly together as much as possible for maximum adhesion. still tweaking and fine tuning but it works awesome :)

IMG_20150226_020235_zps8hifqaov.jpg



IMG_20150226_020219_zpsesobhbc2.jpg



IMG_20150226_020113_zpskkutwtr8.jpg



IMG_20150226_015900_zps5uvg1exc.jpg




IMG_20150226_015959_zpsyyav9v6o.jpg





then before it's even finished I ordered some tempered Ni200 from the only place on earth that sells non annealed nickel wire for my dna40's and turns out they use smaller spools which don't work on my coil maker as-is, gotta make some sort of adapter for the smaller spools now :laugh:


IMG_20150226_020306_zps2m8qldkn.jpg
 
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Aal_

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turned into a lot of work and it's still not finished yet but it's working enough for testing and it works really good so far :) has enough torque even at medium speed to just snap 26 ga kanthal if I adjust it to too much tension, but turned down to a little less than snapping tension and it's cranking out some super high tension coils in just a few seconds. it's easy to keep the perfect angle of feed to force the wire almost on top of it's self but not quite, this really forces the coils tightly together as much as possible for maximum adhesion. still tweaking and fine tuning but it works awesome :)

IMG_20150226_020235_zps8hifqaov.jpg



IMG_20150226_020219_zpsesobhbc2.jpg



IMG_20150226_020113_zpskkutwtr8.jpg



IMG_20150226_015900_zps5uvg1exc.jpg




IMG_20150226_015959_zpsyyav9v6o.jpg





then before it's even finished I ordered some tempered Ni200 from the only place on earth that sells non annealed nickel wire for my dna40's and turns out they use smaller spools which don't work on my coil maker as-is, gotta make some sort of adapter for the smaller spools now :laugh:


IMG_20150226_020306_zps2m8qldkn.jpg
Turbo you know a video is worth a 1000 pictures lol. Man that is sweet!
 

MacTechVpr

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turned into a lot of work and it's still not finished yet but it's working enough for testing and it works really good so far :) has enough torque even at medium speed to just snap 26 ga kanthal if I adjust it to too much tension, but turned down to a little less than snapping tension and it's cranking out some super high tension coils in just a few seconds. it's easy to keep the perfect angle of feed to force the wire almost on top of it's self but not quite, this really forces the coils tightly together as much as possible for maximum adhesion. still tweaking and fine tuning but it works awesome :)


IMG_20150226_015959_zpsyyav9v6o.jpg


Well, you prolly figured out really fast how easy it is to snap wire with torque, lol. The tensioner and tensioner/guide block are outstanding. The end-turn adhesion's, like on Bills, gotta be very consistent with the rest of the wind. And that's critical. It is all about end-to-end uniformity with oxidation. When that happens these things massively cool down. And TC that's where my big concern lies is with graduation. The sweet spot is a zone, a measure of tightness. When I use a jig, my results are dismal. I tend to go over-tight far more often than not. Then the characteristic increase of res starts to impact the wind (greater ratio of elongation to deflection, lateral/longitudinal strain). How are you encountering the vape? Hotter/cooler? Never mind what you like for a moment. We're talkin' how to get there. As you hit the point where lateral compression (compaction of diameter) starts to yield to stretch…that's where "sticky" begins. It would appear you have some adjustability for drag in the tensioner.

Congratulations!!! And please let us know. I've believed that a precise winder would flatten the roadway so to speak. Spreading out the width of the sticky zone. Hope so for ya. That's where phase transition is boosted in my experience.

Good luck.

:)
 

turbocad6

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mac, the tensioner adjustment is actually the center nut holding the spool, tighten it for more drag, the spring thing you see pressed into the side of the spool is just a temporary wire stop so when I load the spool it doesn't unravel whenever I cut the lead to do a new coil, that wire stop needs to be refined a bit, I just rigged it up with that for testing. that takes the place of a piece of foam like sxd uses...


I haven't vaped anything from this yet, just got it functioning enough for testing so far. so you are saying that there is a point of too much tension? I thought the more the better as long as the wire doesn't snap? this thing is very adjustable but could you explain to me exactly what I should be looking for as far as tension being too much or too little? not sure what you mean by: " the characteristic increase of res starts to impact the wind..."
 

MacTechVpr

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mac, the tensioner adjustment is actually the center nut holding the spool, tighten it for more drag, the spring thing you see pressed into the side of the spool is just a temporary wire stop so when I load the spool it doesn't unravel whenever I cut the lead to do a new coil, that wire stop needs to be refined a bit, I just rigged it up with that for testing. that takes the place of a piece of foam like sxd uses...


I haven't vaped anything from this yet, just got it functioning enough for testing so far. so you are saying that there is a point of too much tension? I thought the more the better as long as the wire doesn't snap? this thing is very adjustable but could you explain to me exactly what I should be looking for as far as tension being too much or too little? not sure what you mean by: " the characteristic increase of res starts to impact the wind..."

Ok, so basically, speaking in terms of something stretchy like an elastic band... we are stretching the wire so that as it relaxes back to its natural diameter it pulls itself into the coil... right?

A very gross explanation but am I following correctly?


Strain as a physical force is stretch. When induced it causes a change of form. First deflection, a compaction of the mated surfaces. Then elongation of the material being strained.

Contact as we know from a traditional crossed wire raises resistance. Close contact as supX discovered can majorly cause the wire to go hot. To the degree that you close gaps electron flow stabilizes. Oxidation of the wire surfaces discourages electron jump. Gentlemen, you have liftoff. That's "sticky".

The purpose for strain is to get the wire to that point that it makes the most proximate contact and the optimal adhesion. In theory you enjoy the best possible oxidation and so stabilization of electron flow (short aversion). At which point all that heat that was building up as close contact became closer is done. A significant uniformity of heat distribution occurs and you get very rapid end-to-end heating.

Result: More juice exposed to adequate thermal radiation at one point in time.

The coil ceases to heat inside out or disproportionately from center, but uniformly from fire to full heating…


IMG_1414a.jpg IMG_1415a.jpg IMG_1416a.jpg IMG_1418a.jpg


If that happens during your firing>heating process you got to "sticky", you've got a microcoil.

It's a measure or degree of tightness and uniformity.

However, I'd have to rev my research notes to find the spec law involved but res rises with strain. Minutely, but measurably and so resistance rises as power is applied and multiplied by excessive strain.

Consequently as I observed in a number of video's of jig wound t.m.c.'s and duplicated myself…the wind will go hot as you go beyond adhesion (closest proximity). How much beyond, how many Nm, dunno. It depends on the wire gauge and wind of course (total mass). So it's something we've got to find with our gear whether pin vise or jig and particular build.

My research has centered on ergonomics in an effort to create a simple method for beginners to get to a working coil quick. The precision needed for a jig is another matter. But I think you'll certainly find more consistency in the jig even as a human hand is an amazing tool for dealing with minute wire variations. And as I discussed with Bill early on once you find that spread for your jig you should be able to nail it every time. I think most users of the gizmo from what I see are getting there. How many go to the hot side can't say. Too me it's like a super short, the wind can go way hot. Leads and all. Even though that's nullifying much of the efficiency, many will like that. Just a word of caution, don't run that on your 250$ authentic atty. Odd's are you'll not enjoy the flavor/taste/texture then. Coils that go to that extreme look like frame 4 above, a full power fire, inside of a couple of seconds. Hopefully, you'll never get too many of these and you'll snap wire before your jig can produce it.

Wish you much luck, i.e. success, and hope you'll keep us posted.

:)
 
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astronomicals

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How important it to have an evenly tensioned coil? I was thinking about just hanging weights from the wire while using the gizmo. It wouldnt be pretty and shiny, but, it may be pretty consistent and very easy to set up. Thoughts? Any guess as to how much weight I should use for certain gauges?

Im a fan of just drilling a hole, tying a knot, and letting gravity do its thing.
 

Aal_

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Strain as a physical force is stretch. When induced it causes a change of form. First deflection, a compaction of the mated surfaces. Then elongation of the material being strained.

Contact as we know from a traditional crossed wire raises resistance. Close contact as supX discovered can majorly cause the wire to go hot. To the degree that you close gaps electron flow stabilizes. Oxidation of the wire surfaces discourages electron jump. Gentlemen, you have liftoff. That's "sticky".

The purpose for strain is to get the wire to that point that it makes the most proximate contact and the optimal adhesion. In theory you enjoy the best possible oxidation and so stabilization of electron flow (short aversion). At which point all that heat that was building up as close contact became closer is done. A significant uniformity of heat distribution occurs and you get very rapid end-to-end heating.

Result: More juice exposed to adequate thermal radiation at one point in time.

The coil ceases to heat inside out or disproportionately from center, but uniformly from fire to full heating…


View attachment 415712 View attachment 415713 View attachment 415714 View attachment 415715


If that happens during your firing>heating process you got to "sticky", you've got a microcoil.

It's a measure or degree of tightness and uniformity.

However, I'd have to rev my research notes to find the spec law involved but res rises with strain. Minutely, but measurably and so resistance rises as power is applied and multiplied by excessive strain.

Consequently as I observed in a number of video's of jig wound t.m.c.'s and duplicated myself…the wind will go hot as you go beyond adhesion (closest proximity). How much beyond, how many Nm, dunno. It depends on the wire gauge and wind of course (total mass). So it's something we've got to find with our gear whether pin vise or jig and particular build.

My research has centered on ergonomics in an effort to create a simple method for beginners to get to a working coil quick. The precision needed for a jig is another matter. But I think you'll certainly find more consistency in the jig even as a human hand is an amazing tool for dealing with minute wire variations. And as I discussed with Bill early on once you find that spread for your jig you should be able to nail it every time. I think most users of the gizmo from what I see are getting there. How many go to the hot side can't say. Too me it's like a super short, the wind can go way hot. Leads and all. Even though that's nullifying much of the efficiency, many will like that. Just a word of caution, don't run that on your 250$ authentic atty. Odd's are you'll not enjoy the flavor/taste/texture then. Coils that go to that extreme look like frame 4 above, a full power fire, inside of a couple of seconds. Hopefully, you'll never get too many of these and you'll snap wire before your jig can produce it.

Wish you much luck, i.e. success, and hope you'll keep us posted.

:)

Mac, glowing from inside out can be done without any strain as well. Are you saying too little strain and too much strain can lead to the same problem?
 

skyboxer1968

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How important it to have an evenly tensioned coil? I was thinking about just hanging weights from the wire while using the gizmo. It wouldnt be pretty and shiny, but, it may be pretty consistent and very easy to set up. Thoughts? Any guess as to how much weight I should use for certain gauges?

Im a fan of just drilling a hole, tying a knot, and letting gravity do its thing.
That sounds to me like the best way to get consistent tension. A magnetic drag would be a close second as long as the wire didn't interfere with it or vice versa.
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac, glowing from inside out can be done without any strain as well. Are you saying too little strain and too much strain can lead to the same problem?

Right you are, Aal...that is what all coils do...predominantly heat from center.

Some months after I started posting on the concept of strain on the Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it and Protank MicroCoil Discussion!! a physicist on reddit described The Effect of a microcoil...


Then he validates contentions I have made consistently that...


As I describe above it is the touching which interrupts the normal profile of heat distribution of a conventional coil and the exacerbated overheating of a close contact coil (one not fully in contact, thermal shorting).

There is simply no comparison in the performance of a true microcoil to a close contact coil. I introduced tension winding on super_X_drifter's Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH as I knew that as long as gaps remained in our winds we were falling far short of the most uniform oxidation. To achieve optimization a technique was needed to get wire as close as physically possible…that is tension. Merely compressing a coil doesn't close those gaps, nor adding heat by torching, as external pressure is inconsistent. Worse torching can damage the wire finish, distort it, embed impurities that impair full oxidation or contribute to shorting and excess resistance (carbonization is conductive).

There seems to be a microcoil Goldilock's zone about which there is ideal thermal radiation, not too hot on the close contact side and not too much excess resistance added by strain. It is here that I and a great many others in test have observed a very significant spike in thermal transfer efficiency. It is that ideal of proximity and oxidation that represents the optimal for the wire length.


384643d1414382506-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th-img_1191a.jpg



It really isn't any less effort to create coils by other means spaced or contact. But strain as a tool let's us get closer to the actual theoretical physical wire resistance than any other means. The advantage in interaction of a uniform thermal output and a capable wick cannot be measured by the simple mathematics of line resistance. That is where a microcoil really sparkles for its uniform heat output and its concentrated impact upon the compact thermal vaporization zone it's geometry creates ​internally.

A true ​tensioned microcoil's a whole 'nother ballgame Aal. Why I've devoted myself to passing it on to newcomers. Easy to do. The harder job is overcoming the constructs of our own misconceptions. I know, I did not believe Russ' discovery of contact would work to produce anything more than too much heat.

What I found to my pleasant surprise is that the benefits of tension can be applied to most any wind we do.

Good luck.

:)


407453d1422480103-kangertech-subtank-mini-img_1336a.jpg
 
Last edited:

Cantthinkofausername

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I assume from reading the above that it's better to not "pre-torch" the wire before coil building? I see that some see it as a means of "sterilizing" the wire and to also remove some of its "springiness". My way of thinking is that maybe you want it to retain its springiness as the finished article wants to closely resemble a spring. Dry burning before use will remove any impurities I guess?
 

super_X_drifter

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turned into a lot of work and it's still not finished yet but it's working enough for testing and it works really good so far :) has enough torque even at medium speed to just snap 26 ga kanthal if I adjust it to too much tension, but turned down to a little less than snapping tension and it's cranking out some super high tension coils in just a few seconds. it's easy to keep the perfect angle of feed to force the wire almost on top of it's self but not quite, this really forces the coils tightly together as much as possible for maximum adhesion. still tweaking and fine tuning but it works awesome :)

IMG_20150226_020235_zps8hifqaov.jpg



IMG_20150226_020219_zpsesobhbc2.jpg



IMG_20150226_020113_zpskkutwtr8.jpg



IMG_20150226_015900_zps5uvg1exc.jpg




IMG_20150226_015959_zpsyyav9v6o.jpg





then before it's even finished I ordered some tempered Ni200 from the only place on earth that sells non annealed nickel wire for my dna40's and turns out they use smaller spools which don't work on my coil maker as-is, gotta make some sort of adapter for the smaller spools now :laugh:


IMG_20150226_020306_zps2m8qldkn.jpg

Turbo, bro, are you building two? I has fundage for R&D, materials and labor my man :)
That deal is so bad ayuss I don't think I could go on knowing that there is one out there and I don't have one :)
 

Aal_

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Turbo, bro, are you building two? I has fundage for R&D, materials and labor my man :)
That deal is so bad ayuss I don't think I could go on knowing that there is one out there and I don't have one :)
Wait your turn Russ. I already prepared money for priority international shipping :D
 

Aal_

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Right you are, Aal...that is what all coils do...predominantly heat from center.

Some months after I started posting on the concept of strain on the Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it and Protank MicroCoil Discussion!! a physicist on reddit described The Effect of a microcoil...



Then he validates contentions I have made consistently that...



As I describe above it is the touching which interrupts the normal profile of heat distribution of a conventional coil and the exacerbated overheating of a close contact coil (one not fully in contact, thermal shorting).

There is simply no comparison in the performance of a true microcoil to a close contact coil. I introduced tension winding on super_X_drifter's Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH as I knew that as long as gaps remained in our winds we were falling far short of the most uniform oxidation. To achieve optimization a technique was needed to get wire as close as physically possible…that is tension. Merely compressing a coil doesn't close those gaps, nor adding heat by torching, as external pressure is inconsistent. Worse torching can damage the wire finish, distort it, embed impurities that impair full oxidation or contribute to shorting and excess resistance (carbonization is conductive).

There seems to be a microcoil Goldilock's zone about which there is ideal thermal radiation, not too hot on the close contact side and not too much excess resistance added by strain. It is here that I and a great many others in test have observed a very significant spike in thermal transfer efficiency. It is that ideal of proximity and oxidation that represents the optimal for the wire length.


384643d1414382506-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th-img_1191a.jpg



It really isn't any less effort to create coils by other means spaced or contact. But strain as a tool let's us get closer to the actual theoretical physical wire resistance than any other means. The advantage in interaction of a uniform thermal output and a capable wick cannot be measured by the simple mathematics of line resistance. That is where a microcoil really sparkles for its uniform heat output and its concentrated impact upon the compact thermal vaporization zone it's geometry creates ​internally.

A true ​tensioned microcoil's a whole 'nother ballgame Aal. Why I've devoted myself to passing it on the newcomers. Easy to do. The harder job is overcoming the constructs of our own misconceptions. I know, I did not believe Russ' discovery of contact would work to produce anything more than too much heat.

What I found to my pleasant surprise is that the benefits of tension can be applied to most any wind we do.

Good luck.

:)


407453d1422480103-kangertech-subtank-mini-img_1336a.jpg
Mac I understand you 100%. Since I have begun using the coiling gizmo and the performance of my coils is noticeably better. I was kicking myself when my calculations were wrong and then I measured the 1.5mm rod turned out to be 1.57mm and I'm getting exact results now :D


Now my questiin regarding the too much tension. Is that why I can see hot loops and then when I rake or pass the rod back and forth inside the coil (a la superx) it becomes consistent again? Are we able by raking or "rubbing" release some of the excess tension and make it properly tension and in the zone? So mainly what I'm asking is should I kick myself to get the tension just right in the zone, or excess tension can be removed after the fact by raking and "rubbing" :D. Thanks mac.
 

MacTechVpr

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I assume from reading the above that it's better to not "pre-torch" the wire before coil building? I see that some see it as a means of "sterilizing" the wire and to also remove some of its "springiness". My way of thinking is that maybe you want it to retain its springiness as the finished article wants to closely resemble a spring. Dry burning before use will remove any impurities I guess?

When you think about it, when you pulse it you're going to vaporize most any impurity you can think off. But an alcohol wipe should suffice for the finicky.

I loved my burnzomatic, really got the manly-man muscle the wire thing goin' on. But you don't drive your car on dirty spark plugs…or scorch the pan before you cook to make it cleaner either.

Good luck C!

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Turbo, bro, are you building two? I has fundage for R&D, materials and labor my man :)
That deal is so bad ayuss I don't think I could go on knowing that there is one out there and I don't have one :)

Scares the bejeezus outta me but I knows I got one in my future.

<shrug>

:D
 
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