Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[Darryl Licht]

yeah Russ, my wife knows that there is def something wrong with me, but if you ask her, it goes way back to even before ecig stuff that's a lot of views brother

Darryl I do have a high res video camera but hardly ever drag it out charge it up and then get the tripod that vid was extra bad because I was just holding the phone. here's another more stable one?

this is that coil:

on a 10-11 wrap on average the spring back is ~ 1/2 a rotation, 180 deg, so I stop the wind opposite where I want the leg to fall. when you say "would the tension and feed system possibly work better if the wire stayed on the same plane the entire time?" are you talking about the slight difference in feed angle from beginning to end of wrap, or the wobble in the spindle drive? I could easily make it stay exactly on the same angle throughout but it requires me to use my guide block manually, IE; guide it by hand, which is what I originally designed, but the difference in approach angle from beginning to end without guiding it is probably less than a degree, don't know if a matter of a few minutes angle change affects much. for me to make it a controlled power feed for the feed arm would be very complicated and elaborate and would require a variable geartrain to select different pitches for different wire gages or better yet CNC control... I think this thing is rube Goldberg enough without cnc controlling it


I've done some research on drag clutches on fishing reels and learned a bit about them, ideally you want a very consistent amount of resistance but there is more to it, stuff like initial braking torque VS continuous and also precision in the amount of resistance held. an ideal scenario is that the reel releases it's hold at a certain amount of pounds of line pull and then still maintains the same amount of resistance throughout it's release. in reality it will require at least slightly more line pull to break loose against the brake but then require less line pull to continue the drag. cheap reels use cork or plastic composites as the variable friction clutch but really expensive reels are now using multi carbon fiber clutch to SS or titanium discs and spline drives. I've seen the insides of some $800-$900+ reels and there pretty funky and elaborate spine drive multi disc clutch mechanisms for the ultimate in consistency of drag resistance

main reason I'm mentioning this is to simply say that using a fishing reel is the easiest and most practical way for anyone to build a tension wrap rig, even a cheap reel should provide adequate resistance I would think, I'm doubting anyone is going to go buy a competition reel just to wrap coils, I just figured I'd share what I learned in researching these. I also found some really tiny fly fishing reels and even some fly fishing reels that use a cartridge insert so quick wire changes are practical. main reason I decided on working right off the wire spools is because I wanted the versatility of being easy to swap between 4-5 different wire gages and type, but if I was to do another and compact was not my main goal I might think to either get a reel and several empty cartridges for it, or just buy several cheap mini reels and keep them loaded with my different wires and make the reels quick release to swap...


researching how the high end reels work for consistent drag has given me some ideas as to how to make my drag resistance a lot more linear and consistent though, so I am going to revise my clutch mechanism design on this one for much more consistent drag throughout the wind.

I know my rig is kinda beyond what most guys are going to want to or be able to build, but a really simple rig could be built for well under $100 to do pretty much the same thing as I have done here. yeah it may be larger and uglier but still may be a great working tool... I'm thinking pick up a cheap reel and a cheap cordless drill and mount them both to a frame, could be a short piece of a 2x4 even, doesn't have to look fancy to get the job done whenever I have the time I'm going to put one of these together with strictly off the shelf parts and in a way that an average tinker would be able to build something like this to spark attainable ideas for all the tinkerers here

@ $100, I'd buy one! LOL! It is an incredible home made device that you should be damn proud of! <--- And the same of the coils it produces! They're gorgeous!!! If you ever go into production, I want a PM!

I meant the current angle from the spool up to the center of the drive, seems it might get more consistent torque on spool if everything was on the horizontal plane from spool to the winding post. Just throwing an idea out there...

alright I took a quick video with my phone. it's still not as smooth as it should be because while this was shot the wire retention guide is still just a raw spring steel leaf here, since the video I covered the wire contact area of the spring leaf with a heavy duty felt wiper strip and it's def much better now but you get the idea a bit. the feed guide arm is now calibrated to automatically follow the whole length of the coil from beginning to end at the right angle with no interaction or manual guiding. I'll do a real video when it's all finished but it's something at least



you'll notice I adjusted the tension at one point and then I increased the tension again in the middle of that coil and continued. on that coil i can easily see that the diameter decreases further where the tension was raised further

I watched both vids again, but in full screen hi-def for my aging eyes this time; and I can see very little spring at all when you cut it.

 

[turbocad6]

def not going into production oh you mean if the spool was in direct alignment with the spindle? I don't think the pulley is detrimental at all and it allows for a much more compact design. that pulley is on roller bearings so it does nothing to hurt it and could potentially help as a last straightening action to the wire by going through the roller under tension. I do need to tweak it's position slightly which I'll do with the new clutch design but truth is it's not too shabby as it is right now

 

[super_X_drifter]

def not going into production oh you mean if the spool was in direct alignment with the spindle? I don't think the pulley is detrimental at all and it allows for a much more compact design. that pulley is on roller bearings so it does nothing to hurt it and could potentially help as a last straightening action to the wire by going through the roller under tension. I do need to tweak it's position slightly which I'll do with the new clutch design but truth is it's not too shabby as it is right now

I like it a lot. Let me know if you ever need someone to test a prototype and fund the construction

 

[etherealink]

yeah Russ, my wife knows that there is def something wrong with me, but if you ask her, it goes way back to even before ecig stuff that's a lot of views brother

Darryl I do have a high res video camera but hardly ever drag it out charge it up and then get the tripod that vid was extra bad because I was just holding the phone. here's another more stable one?




this is that coil:

on a 10-11 wrap on average the spring back is ~ 1/2 a rotation, 180 deg, so I stop the wind opposite where I want the leg to fall. when you say "would the tension and feed system possibly work better if the wire stayed on the same plane the entire time?" are you talking about the slight difference in feed angle from beginning to end of wrap, or the wobble in the spindle drive? I could easily make it stay exactly on the same angle throughout but it requires me to use my guide block manually, IE; guide it by hand, which is what I originally designed, but the difference in approach angle from beginning to end without guiding it is probably less than a degree, don't know if a matter of a few minutes angle change affects much. for me to make it a controlled power feed for the feed arm would be very complicated and elaborate and would require a variable geartrain to select different pitches for different wire gages or better yet CNC control... I think this thing is rube Goldberg enough without cnc controlling it


I've done some research on drag clutches on fishing reels and learned a bit about them, ideally you want a very consistent amount of resistance but there is more to it, stuff like initial braking torque VS continuous and also precision in the amount of resistance held. an ideal scenario is that the reel releases it's hold at a certain amount of pounds of line pull and then still maintains the same amount of resistance throughout it's release. in reality it will require at least slightly more line pull to break loose against the brake but then require less line pull to continue the drag. cheap reels use cork or plastic composites as the variable friction clutch but really expensive reels are now using multi carbon fiber clutch to SS or titanium discs and spline drives. I've seen the insides of some $800-$900+ reels and there pretty funky and elaborate spine drive multi disc clutch mechanisms for the ultimate in consistency of drag resistance

main reason I'm mentioning this is to simply say that using a fishing reel is the easiest and most practical way for anyone to build a tension wrap rig, even a cheap reel should provide adequate resistance I would think, I'm doubting anyone is going to go buy a competition reel just to wrap coils, I just figured I'd share what I learned in researching these. I also found some really tiny fly fishing reels and even some fly fishing reels that use a cartridge insert so quick wire changes are practical. main reason I decided on working right off the wire spools is because I wanted the versatility of being easy to swap between 4-5 different wire gages and type, but if I was to do another and compact was not my main goal I might think to either get a reel and several empty cartridges for it, or just buy several cheap mini reels and keep them loaded with my different wires and make the reels quick release to swap...


researching how the high end reels work for consistent drag has given me some ideas as to how to make my drag resistance a lot more linear and consistent though, so I am going to revise my clutch mechanism design on this one for much more consistent drag throughout the wind.

I know my rig is kinda beyond what most guys are going to want to or be able to build, but a really simple rig could be built for well under $100 to do pretty much the same thing as I have done here. yeah it may be larger and uglier but still may be a great working tool... I'm thinking pick up a cheap reel and a cheap cordless drill and mount them both to a frame, could be a short piece of a 2x4 even, doesn't have to look fancy to get the job done whenever I have the time I'm going to put one of these together with strictly off the shelf parts and in a way that an average tinker would be able to build something like this to spark attainable ideas for all the tinkerers here

Ok turbo, any chance you could see a zebco 33 reel (spool 90° from rod direction) not working? I planned to mount it at a right angle and use the drag the way Russ does without the rod in a smaller package.

Thoughts?

 

[etherealink]

Astro I'd say the optimal would be close to the direction of wind or what's called the bias angle of the wind. Prolly somewhere between that and the perpendicular. How much might depend on things like the wire gauge and how much tension is being applied. If you go to the outside with attack angle and too much tension it will get pulled off the natural bias and skew (elongate). Being able to adjust the angle of attack is helpful to getting consistency.

A resting weight which can be angled and supported by degrees, that might work. If so, add some consistency. As much as a mechanical that's been tuned to the correct angle.

Good luck.

Mac, could something like that be controlled by a force gauge similar to a fish scale?

 

[etherealink]

Ok I'll say it.. I learned more about electronics from quitting smoking than in the 20+ years I smoked lol

 

[turbocad6]

I'm no reel expert, never even checked out a reel like that but what I did learn was the main difference between a zebco style VS a fly reel is the fly reel is direct drive where the zebco style is more about gear reduction and much faster rewinding of the line as well as the ability to release the line completely for far casting. the zebco style might be a 3:1 ratio or more, meaning for every crank of the handle the reel winds up spinning internally 3 times, so you can wind in longer lengths faster, but I don't think the clutch mech is as robust, and t looks like a more complicated wire path. to me I think a fly type reel is better suited for this but again, I've never even held a zebco style with anything like this in mind so can't say weather it would work or not but I think a direct drive fly would probably be the better way to go...

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Anyone have a ballpark idea of the force range required? I have been thinking about what would be required to build an automated MM making machine and constant controllable tension is a requirement for both making MM and winding coils. Seems to me that the ideal automated winding system would include a torque motor or consist of two torque motors similar to the multiple ones I was thinking of for making MM but with a higher torque rating. Torque motors can operate at full torque in the stalled position and the torque can be controlled accurately while slip occurs. The small versions I was contemplating for MM are used in tape winding applications....think VHS and cassette tape decks. Larger versions are available but pricey unless caught surplus. Not a project for the faint of heart, but just throwing it out there.

 

[etherealink]

I'm no reel expert, never even checked out a reel like that but what I did learn was the main difference between a zebco style VS a fly reel is the fly reel is direct drive where the zebco style is more about gear reduction and much faster rewinding of the line as well as the ability to release the line completely for far casting. the zebco style might be a 3:1 ratio or more, meaning for every crank of the handle the reel winds up spinning internally 3 times, so you can wind in longer lengths faster, but I don't think the clutch mech is as robust, and t looks like a more complicated wire path. to me I think a fly type reel is better suited for this but again, I've never even held a zebco style with anything like this in mind so can't say weather it would work or not but I think a direct drive fly would probably be the better way to go...

Good enough for me turbo, I bought one for the price... before watching Russ's super swamper video. I'll try the build with it for posterity though

 

[rowsley]

Simplicity at its best/worst:

I wanted to try 2.5 mm coils, as some in Aqua land were getting great results and better wick life. The Gizmo comes with 1.5 and 3 (with 3 others) in one kit, 2 and 3 in the other. I grabbed the micrometer and started checking my coat hangers, finally found one at 2.4. Made myself a new mandrel and 2 3" pins to make the dual coil installation a breeze.

Tension? I grab the wire with needle nose and pull straight down with enough force to make the wire sound like a banjo string. Guarantee the force I use would reel in a shark (that was for you, SupX). Pulling down keeps me from ripping the Gizmo off the counter.

I get 5-6 tanks now, flavor is outstanding. I know this is a micro-coil thread, too, the post is more about simple technique. Larger contact coils in that device at least, do provide a very nice, efficient vape. Rayon wicking, btw, must be a heat to wick volume thing.

Is that method of tension good? Using the needle nose pillars? I just bought this coil winder but I don't have a fishing reel or wire on a spool just small amounts of wire i bought so I would definitely have to do something along this line if its gonna work. Pretty much jumping into this so trying to figure everything out before I attempt anything. Thanks

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, could something like that be controlled by a force gauge similar to a fish scale?

Most of the mech wire gauges I've seen for are used in applications where the strain (Nm) is lower than what we require for adhesion. I've been researching strain gauges for this application on and off since I quit. Haven't yet turned up anything suitable. But an electrical transducer (sensor) type might be effective, i.e. measures temp differentials in wire. As yet never spoke with an applications eng about this, have on other things, just no one close enough to the goal to justify it. if you get close contact me. I'd love to be involved to help spec one. If you run across anything suitable E I'd be more than happy to look at it, perhaps like Russ or both of us, fund it.

Good luck E.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Is that method of tension good? Using the needle nose pillars? I just bought this coil winder but I don't have a fishing reel or wire on a spool just small amounts of wire i bought so I would definitely have to do something along this line if its gonna work. Pretty much jumping into this so trying to figure everything out before I attempt anything. Thanks

Row easiest way is to feed the wire directly from the spool resting your hand on the table or base that the gizmo is secured to. As you hold the spool of wire release it slowly and use your thumb to both guide and sense the strain being applied. I sometimes have used a small microfiber cloth to hold the spool and allow it to slip easier in the hand and for wire to be drawn. If you wind slowly and deliberately the first few times with just a little tension you will start to realize the point that the wire reaches tightest contact (won't separate). It's just a tad tighter that you want. Once you've gotten a few there, you'll be able to do that forever.

You can certainly use a needle nose but it won't give you the kind of feedback that I'm talking about. May keep you from finding it. Over-tightening the wire can raise the resistance of the wire too much and give you a sour vape.

Baby steps Row and you'll get there sooner.

Best of luck R.

 

[turbocad6]

Anyone have a ballpark idea of the force range required? I have been thinking about what would be required to build an automated MM making machine and constant controllable tension is a requirement for both making MM and winding coils. Seems to me that the ideal automated winding system would include a torque motor or consist of two torque motors similar to the multiple ones I was thinking of for making MM but with a higher torque rating. Torque motors can operate at full torque in the stalled position and the torque can be controlled accurately while slip occurs. The small versions I was contemplating for MM are used in tape winding applications....think VHS and cassette tape decks. Larger versions are available but pricey unless caught surplus. Not a project for the faint of heart, but just throwing it out there.

I'm guessing were somewhere in the 10 lb range give or take 5-6 lb's or so depending on variables. I'm guessing at 20 lb's were going to be snapping 26 ga. so that sounds like a reasonable guess of a range to me but that's straight linear pulling force. to calculate the torque required you'd have to factor in the leverage factors of the drive too I guess

to me the only thing critical about torque is that you have at least enough, more than that isn't a problem, more torque will allow really slow speeds.

if I was going to make a simple mm making machine I'd get a slide track and spring load a sliding wire post in the track, then mount a spindle drive opposite it, as the wire is twisted and it compresses, the spring would apply it's calibrated amount of tension against it as the slide track allowed the wire to shorten in length as it wrapped. if you started with a known length you could determine the exact point of full twist before snapping and put a micro switch there to trigger an auto stop. chuck the wire, attach the other end to the post at the end of the track then press the button and it winds a perfect single strand every time. it would have to be calibrated to the specific wire you are using but I'd say it def could be done, same solution could work for the stage 2 of the reverse twisting of the 3 singles. problem with this design is, it would be ok for your own casual use but it is very limited because it's only working a single stand at a time. if you set it up to be able to vary the spring tension it could be used to do all kinds of twisted wires.

a slidetrack setup would be cool, I've def thought of that before too, but if your looking to really automate it and have a machine take wire from a spool and spit out MM on the other end like a commercial cnc type deal then it would be a bit more complicated

 

[laurie9300]

Anyone have a ballpark idea of the force range required? I have been thinking about what would be required to build an automated MM making machine and constant controllable tension is a requirement for both making MM and winding coils. Seems to me that the ideal automated winding system would include a torque motor or consist of two torque motors similar to the multiple ones I was thinking of for making MM but with a higher torque rating. Torque motors can operate at full torque in the stalled position and the torque can be controlled accurately while slip occurs. The small versions I was contemplating for MM are used in tape winding applications....think VHS and cassette tape decks. Larger versions are available but pricey unless caught surplus. Not a project for the faint of heart, but just throwing it out there.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Turbo, was thinking ropewalk. Something like this with tension control of each strand and control of the back twist. Byrnes Model Machines - Ropewalk

 

[turbocad6]

that's a cool machine, can see how it works too but having a hard time seeing it work for mm as-is, def a good starting point though. so you building this?

 

[rowsley]

Row easiest way is to feed the wire directly from the spool resting your hand on the table or base that the gizmo is secured to. As you hold the spool of wire release it slowly and use your thumb to both guide and sense the strain being applied. I sometimes have used a small microfiber cloth to hold the spool and allow it to slip easier in the hand and for wire to be drawn. If you wind slowly and deliberately the first few times with just a little tension you will start to realize the point that the wire reaches tightest contact (won't separate). It's just a tad tighter that you want. Once you've gotten a few there, you'll be able to do that forever.

You can certainly use a needle nose but it won't give you the kind of feedback that I'm talking about. May keep you from finding it. Over-tightening the wire can raise the resistance of the wire too much and give you a sour vape.

Baby steps Row and you'll get there sooner.

Best of luck R.

Thanks for that information. I am going to order some spools of wire from tempco tomorrow, then I am definitely going to give it my best.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Now this is what I'm talking about

 

[Alexander Mundy]

that's a cool machine, can see how it works too but having a hard time seeing it work for mm as-is, def a good starting point though. so you building this?

No, not building that it is however the spark. The overall idea is there, but will require different implementation to work for MM. Still mulling over the details.

 

[Flavored]

Is that method of tension good? Using the needle nose pillars? I just bought this coil winder but I don't have a fishing reel or wire on a spool just small amounts of wire i bought so I would definitely have to do something along this line if its gonna work. Pretty much jumping into this so trying to figure everything out before I attempt anything. Thanks

Yes, it works fine. I recently tried an experiment with spaced coils (blasphemy, I know), as some claim less gunking, longer wick life. Anyway, I wound the coil on the gizmo with arm tension (I pull down pretty hard), producing a beautiful contact coil Sup would be proud of. Then, with the coil still on the mandrel, I tried to gently pull the coil apart to produce spaces of about a wire width. Blooming thing sprang right back into contact every time. So, I grabbed a piece of 28g wire and threaded it through the turns cranking the handle, same result. I finally grabbed that 1mm mandrel and threaded it through the same way, and got some space between the winds.

The improvement these folks have brought is the ability to get the same coil each and every time without thinking about it. With my calibrated arm, I get very good coils every time, but it isn't the same coil. Thing is, though, when I "arm out" duals, I've never had an issue with the coils matching on heat up time/glow. Without tension, that was a big issue.