Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[MacTechVpr]

Ok, I didn't have enough 30ga handy to be useful but I did have a bunch of 28ga so here goes...

Same process.

Good luck folks

That is very pretty. And to spell it out once more, the twained leads adds strain to the outboard pairs of the end-turns stabilizing the wind overall. I'm still doing research on the electrical characteristics. I've commented on this elsewhere insofar as resistance with some results. What the configuration does is make the wind run rock solid producing the result of a t.m.c. in optimized phase transition and inhibiting the typical dryness of heat generated by a parallel as it distorts and separates in operation. All you get is that marvelous heat accompanied by terrific vapor density. Glad I'm vapin' one now.

Did notice your leads aren't as tight as below but should be adequate to constrain the wind. See how that goes. Any warping or diametric distortion will likely start there.

See…pin vices are useful.



Good luck.

 

[etherealink]

That is very pretty. And to spell it out once more, the twained leads adds strain to the outboard pairs of the end-turns stabilizing the wind overall. I'm still doing research on the electrical characteristics. I've commented on this elsewhere insofar as resistance with some results. What the configuration does is make the wind run rock solid producing the result of a t.m.c. in optimized phase transition and inhibiting the typical dryness of heat generated by a parallel as it distorts and separates in operation. All you get is that marvelous heat accompanied by terrific vapor density. Glad I'm vapin' one now.

Did notice your leads aren't as tight as below but should be adequate to constrain the wind. See how that goes. Any warping or diametric distortion will likely start there.


View attachment 456456

See…pin vices are useful.



Good luck.

On the twisted leads, make sure the outside lead goes *over* the inside lead or it will separate the two end leads when you twist them. Also, it means that your leads have to be twisted opposite ways. Learned that one the hard way.

 

[Aal_]

etherealink thanks man, that was helpful. Problem is i dont have vice grips. Everytime i say i can do without, i see something that needs it.

On the twisted leads, make sure the outside lead goes *over* the inside lead or it will separate the two end leads when you twist them. Also, it means that your leads have to be twisted opposite ways. Learned that one the hard way.

That's an important tip as well. I did notice sometimes wires running away fom each other while twisting and didn't give it much thought.

 

[MacTechVpr]

On the twisted leads, make sure the outside lead goes *over* the inside lead or it will separate the two end leads when you twist them. Also, it means that your leads have to be twisted opposite ways. Learned that one the hard way.

Very good point and mebe why some are having diff with splaying of their end turns.

Like @Aal_ (thanks!) I haven't been paying much attention. Guess I've been doing that intuitively like so many things I've seen users do quite naturally, from the gut…including wind to adhesion without instruction.*

So the basic rule of thumb you're suggesting makes a lot of sense…just how to describe it? You always twist one over the other…outside lead over inner towards the winds center so that the inner of the two is forced against the wind.

Said differently…twist parallel end turns so that the innermost of the two leads is not pulled away from the wind.

Or did you mean off-center diametrically relative to each other?

It's a hard thing to describe methinks.

Here's what, I'm twisting the leads a lot tighter than your pic. Don't know if it (twist count, pitch) can be done that tight with <28 AWG I believe the count is important and it's going to vary with every gauge. But so far, more seems to be better. If too much however you can induce a whole bunch of nasty things.

So I guess what I'm saying here is we all have to develop our own sense of snow (Smilla's Sense of Snow). Our own gut as to how wire reacts to our own style in employing the mechanics. We can say rotate this way or that but it's the touch that counts. And yes, that would be opposed on the other end of the coil.

Consider this, the two leads will never be diametrically concentric in the turn. If you wind outer lead over inner, the outer will tend to ride higher than the inner. If inner lead is wound over the outer, the outer will tend to ride lower. And…it's just the opposite on the bottom of the coil.

Tension is everything. Make sure leads are as uniform in length as possible. Preload them with strain but not too much (why I use a pin vise). Twist with as smooth and uniform a pull and rotation as possible. Twists will get quite tight when it's even. How much strain? Too much tension and you'll snap the tightest of the two leads (if uneven).

Try to find the point of strain you feel might be the median between too tight and too loose as you twain the pair.

The tension and the attack angle to the wind is what constrains the twained pair so that separation from the rest of the wind is inhibited. Thicker wire can also be bent or compressed at the set (outward or in, top or bottom) to help coax the turn angle. But it's better if tension provides the imbued rigidity to restrain dislocation.

Always protect end turn adhesion by clamping or firm finger hold whenever making any adjustment and particularly setting termination as wind remains on the bit.

So yep, agree with you twist rotation is a selection. It's a means to impart more inward tension to the top…or the bottom of the end turn. It will be the opposite on the other side of the coil. Too much and you may separate the opposite side of the turn. Too little pre-strain and it don't matter, the twist will cause some splay itself. There will always be some effect to the concentricity of the twained leads.

Like Smila's snow the sense and character of adhesion between surfaces is intuitive but something that we assimilate experientially. This is one of those things that I have to admit depends on what works for you in your termination style. And more like how we wind our shoe laces. But it's important they be tied well.



Good luck all.

*I've done that test btw…given a pin vise, drill blank and spool to folks and asked 'em…Can you make me a coil with these? Show me how you'd do it, a contact coil.

 

[proteckt3d]

Hy guys, have to admit didn't got around to trying this wrap method only because I am still satisfied with the classic method but I was wondering, has a nikel t.m.c been tried on a DNA 40? Since resistance is more steady maybe it doesn't have the issues a regular micro coil has?

 

[etherealink]

Yep, that was my vocabulary lesoson for the week lol!

Sorry Mac, haven't had my coffee yet Bro.

 

[etherealink]

Hy guys, have to admit didn't got around to trying this wrap method only because I am still satisfied with the classic method but I was wondering, has a nikel t.m.c been tried on a DNA 40? Since resistance is more steady maybe it doesn't have the issues a regular micro coil has?

Proteckt,

Welcome to the party! I can't say that I have worked with nickel, but the resistance issues are not exactly *only* from the manufacture of the wire, they are from differences in the tension the wire is wrapped with... translating to an uneven amount of wire being used per coil.

My tension experiment about how much weight is needed to make the wires "stick" to each other shows me that the consistent amount of tension keeps the resistance within a few 1/100ths per coil (normally going up in resistance, btw). I'll have to check out nickel when I get a chance... does it work with non-temp regulated devices too?

Best of luck!

 

[proteckt3d]

1/100ths is pretty impressive. If I understand correctly that's for total resistance, not per loop right? Also one would expect resistance going down as the coil because more and more solid, that's also interesting.

 

[etherealink]

Yes, total resistance. The going up in resistance is an indication that the wire is starting to stretch very slightly.

 

[Aal_]

Hy guys, have to admit didn't got around to trying this wrap method only because I am still satisfied with the classic method but I was wondering, has a nikel t.m.c been tried on a DNA 40? Since resistance is more steady maybe it doesn't have the issues a regular micro coil has?

The problem with nickel and temp control is that as far as I am concerned I was never able to make a tmc without initial shorting which is relieved by raking or passing the mandrel through. Therefore you have to do at least one dry burn. And that with nickel is not safe as I heard.

 

[proteckt3d]

For your question, Ni200 is less resistent than kanthal for example, about 16 times, and coils are in the milliohm ranges so other regulated devices will just read short or something like that. The only devices that work with them are the temp regulated ones like DNA 40 or maybe DC but the voltages have to be very low, I think the highest resistance I saw with nickel was 0.06 ohms. As I see it there is no point for anyone to spend their time on this, it's dna's problem. However, among the several temp regulated devices dna is the better working board to test a t.m.c. To my best knowledge. Or on VIR made by GG ( which is what I'm actually interested in) but we have to talk with the boss for that

 

[proteckt3d]

Aal, there's a lot to take in on the language but by initial shorting you mean what is discussed here of thermal shorting?

 

[turbocad6]

As I've said, this not a mechanical draft, only a concept illustration to show various principles at work. To address your points:

1.) The spring's job is to relieve tension, not create it. It has to give just enough to prevent the wire from snapping before the final wrap.
2.) There is no crank handle in the illustration A crank handle could clear the arms with a long shaft (no jokes), but we're only concerned with the gearing in this dialogue. The arms could be turned by hand as long as the gear is there.
3.) Approach angle will vary, but we are wrapping from the inside out so the variance on each side will be half of the total wraps. Also, both sides will be inclined inward as it wraps, pulling the coil together.
4.) See #2

The thing I'm driving at here is that the symmetry of a centered wrap changes things a bit. When you increase tension on the wire as it is wrapped, some of that force transfers to the coil and it will slip until it binds. Because of binding, you can't transfer that force evenly in a linear wrap. In a centered wrap, however, you are applying force from both ends and so from each side we only have to transfer that force across half the coil. That means less binding, which means a more symmetrical wrap.

I didn't post here to be negative towards you personally, I wasn't even going to point out anything at all until I see you continuing on with it and wanting to develop on this idea further and considering ways to actually do it. I just mentioned the few big flaws I see to your initial concept, there is a huge difference between a conceptual idea and a working prototype, to get to a working prototype you do need to identify the problems with the design and come up with a sound mechanical engineered solution.

now I typed out a big long winded technical thing explaining the many why's as to what you are suggesting is not practical and all the complications of the many things your simple conceptual design does not address, but then I realized that now I just sound like a know it all jerk, so I decided not even going to bother. I'll just say good luck with your design, I'd love to see you build it

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yep, that was my vocabulary lesoson for the week lol!

Sorry Mac, haven't had my coffee yet Bro.

You bring up a good point and I've been trying to use twist direction too. Nothin' wrong with your explanation. I hope that twist does what I think it'll do. Put it in on a box. Let us know how resistance holds up.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Aal, there's a lot to take in on the language but by initial shorting you mean what is discussed here of thermal shorting?

Welcome p3d. Thanks for your comments.

Just thought I'd throw in here to keep things from goin' sideways. Yes, I think that's what @Aal_ is talkin' about (correct me if I'm talkin' out of turn).

The term thermal short was suggested by a contributor on the PTMicro thread to distinguish it from the common physical short. Really describes the thermal aberration of a contact coil due to electron jump (or instability). All wires increase in operation as power is applied. Gaps and circuit bypass cause temp's to go North with contact. Which btw is the same for Ni as unoxidized Kanthal. So while it can be made into a contact wind, as acknowledged on the DNA40 forum, they run hot (my observation).

And that's really the subject of this thread. How strain can be used to better complete the circuit by optimizing oxidation.

Good luck p3d.

 

[Skepticide]

I didn't post here to be negative towards you personally, I wasn't even going to point out anything at all until I see you continuing on with it and wanting to develop on this idea further and considering ways to actually do it. I just mentioned the few big flaws I see to your initial concept, there is a huge difference between a conceptual idea and a working prototype, to get to a working prototype you do need to identify the problems with the design and come up with a sound mechanical engineered solution.

now I typed out a big long winded technical thing explaining the many why's as to what you are suggesting is not practical and all the complications of the many things your simple conceptual design does not address, but then I realized that now I just sound like a know it all jerk, so I decided not even going to bother. I'll just say good luck with your design, I'd love to see you build it

I didn't take it negatively, not sure how you got that impression. Criticism is constructive dialogue and not a personal slight, so you should have saved that long technical essay. I think we're all mature enough here, no need to walk on eggshells. That said, I felt the points you made initially were moot and so I made counter-points. You were highlighting prototyping issues, not conceptual flaws, and so I made that distinction to you first. Now I feel like you're backpedaling by explaining to me the difference between concept and prototype. If you disagree with my points then I'd like to hear exactly why, that is the entire reason I am brainstorming the idea openly.

On another note, the simplest solution was staring me in the face the whole time. Tuning keys work by rotating a post that the wire is anchored to, thus wrapping the wire around the post. This is exactly what we are doing on the jig. So if the jig and the tuning posts are the same diameter, then you can gear the posts to turn in a 1:1 ratio with the arm, which will unwrap precisely the same amount of wire from the post as is being wrapped around the jig. This will consistently maintain the initial tension setting throughout the wrap.

 

[turbocad6]

awesome man, my initial thoughts were to poke holes in your ideas for the reason of potentially improving the design by identifying the pitfalls and problems with it just as I would to a friend who came to me with an idea, but then I think it started to read more as a negative than being helpful, and I really didn't want to be negative, but truth is, if you are open to the input then I'd be glad to offer thoughts from a mechanical engineering point of view.

yeah I do sometimes wind up walking on eggshells here because it's hard to tell on a forum exactly how much ego is going to get hurt when debating ideas and I try not to be too negative in general but if you are open to it and not going to feel like I'm trying to be negative just for the sake of being negative then I'd be glad to hit you with all of my reservations and skepticism to your design from an engineering perspective for a healthy debate.

I'll type up my thoughts for you later but my initial observation of the crank arm never being able to work like you show it is because you can't directly drive a central gear like that without it interfering with the rotation of the arms, yet you say it could work with a longer shaft?? but I still say it won't work period and even if it did you'd wind up having to crank that central gear 20 turns to get one revolution of the arms. I do also see you are now saying forget the gears, it's more about the concept only. I get that now but my original post was more reflective of the diagram you showed, it simply won't work as shown direct driving the central gear

I could help you design a gear drivetrain that would accomplish what you are trying to do, but it would be much more complicated than just that very simple gear concept you've shown and there are many other things that aren't even addressed that would need to be addressed and engineered around just to even get to any kind of a working design.

as long as you take my posts as they're intended of being helpful, then I'm more than happy to help by pointing out some of the problems I see with your design and offering possible solutions where I may see them too, but honestly I don't think this whole dual arm thing is as practical as you seem to think it is. I'm more than happy to debate it though and I'll also say that just because I don't think it's practical, doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[etherealink]

Ego = the reason I try to present things objectively and scientifically

 

[Skepticide]

You were right that a crank handle wouldn't work, which is why I'm still glad I didn't put one in the illustration. Alright, before you go and tear apart the first concept, tear this one apart instead:

Now I don't know about gear ratios and such, so I could use some help there, but hopefully something like this would be viable. The top and bottom wheels are locked together with the center axle, while the red wheel turns freely. The yellow planet gears are there to lock the wheels in opposition. As the wheels turn, they spin the blue and green gears independently in a 1:1 ratio so that one full revolution of the wheel makes one full revolution of the gear.

So you would mount the wire by threading each end onto the blue and green pins and wrapping about 8 times or so each, then insert the pins into the device so they lock with their respective gears and tighten them down to the desired tension. Then you insert the white center jig and turn the red wheel to wrap it. As the wheels turn, the pins will unwind in that exact ratio, essentially transferring wraps to the center jig while maintaining the exact amount of tension that you started with.

The purpose is to achieve a symmetrical center-out wrap with consistent high tension. Am I on the right track?

 

[proteckt3d]

Thanks for the explanation Mac, it's quite welcomed. I'll have to give them a try at some point anyway now that I got some insights on the method, because the concept makes a lot of sense to me as well.