This is a great point! This needs to be fixed somehow. The community needs a leader or someone to represent our side. Someone like pbusardo for example.
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The ANTZ are winning?
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This is a great point! This needs to be fixed somehow. The community needs a leader or someone to represent our side. Someone like pbusardo for example.
I don't think they're winning, it's just they prey on peoples fear which is objective #1 when running an effective propaganda campaign. This last article, Ecigs have 100x the formaldehyde as cigarettes, or whatever nonsense it was, was a perfect example. I noticed this headline was used even when the article stated it was not the case, or there was one Japanese ecig company that had formaldehyde levels higher than in regular cigarettes, nevermind the 3000 other chemicals in cigs that are not in ecigs. but people only focus on the headline (I blame it on the ADD from all the GMO wheat 
) Fear tends to make people irrational and gullible. It really did not matter what the text of the article actually said once that headline was out there that was the talking point. Fortunately, the study in question was flawed and there are studies we can use to counter their junk propagandist science, and we have to every time we see this nonsense. If they use fear we need to use facts, and Dr. F has been a great source for this community. I used a few of his links when my sister-in -law posted an ANTZi article on her FB page.
On a somewhat related note, for those that haven't seen this it's an awesome reminder of why vaping is a necessary option.
) Fear tends to make people irrational and gullible. It really did not matter what the text of the article actually said once that headline was out there that was the talking point. Fortunately, the study in question was flawed and there are studies we can use to counter their junk propagandist science, and we have to every time we see this nonsense. If they use fear we need to use facts, and Dr. F has been a great source for this community. I used a few of his links when my sister-in -law posted an ANTZi article on her FB page. On a somewhat related note, for those that haven't seen this it's an awesome reminder of why vaping is a necessary option.
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That's what I've been doing. But you have to stay polite and factual. I even send ND Quits (our state anti smoking site that is also anti vaping) a link to every good science reference I find.
What doesn't help are some of the comments I've seen on the bad articles. Again, you get farther if you stay polite and factual. I always try to include my own story (40+ years of smoking and trying unsuccessfully to quit) and, links to good science.
What's worse is when a lady behind the counter of a smoke shop who also sells Vape stuff looks at you and says those are bad for you mean while she just put bags of roll your owns on the shelf... I was lost for words LOL!
I can't even. It would surprise you how far some people go down the rabbit hole. Had one person argue with me that vaping wasn't just as bad as cigs, but worse. Apparently there are more toxic chemicals in ecigs and I'm an idiot. Honestly some of the conversations I've had with anti-vaping people could register as a solid 5-6 cuils.
I don't believe the ANTZ are winning ... however, they are doing exactly what they are being paid to do.
Basically their role is to muddy the vape industry until BG hands this miracle vapers have developed over to BT ... BG will not be denied this money.
Personally, I don't think it is possible to stop the capability and greed of BG pulling this off.
When I first started vaping over a year ago ... one of the first things I questioned about vaping ... BG must be bleeding millions in lost tobacco taxes ... how have they not bullied their way into this yet?
IMO, I don't think vaping will go away ... however, I do see BG handing everything over to BT and vaping being taxed on par with smoking.
as for NJOY? ... even though I don't use their products, I love these guys for what they have done for the fight so far ... without them, we might have already lost.
Unfortunately, I do believe NJOY will eventually be swallowed up by BT for billion$.
I honestly believe there are backroom deals being made between BG and BT right now ... one of the biggest and most important questions both sides are seriously asking each other ... what happens if everybody quits smoking with vaping?
Sorry about the negative post ... I wish I could see a better outcome than this ... however, there's just too much money at stake.
Basically their role is to muddy the vape industry until BG hands this miracle vapers have developed over to BT ... BG will not be denied this money.
Personally, I don't think it is possible to stop the capability and greed of BG pulling this off.
When I first started vaping over a year ago ... one of the first things I questioned about vaping ... BG must be bleeding millions in lost tobacco taxes ... how have they not bullied their way into this yet?
IMO, I don't think vaping will go away ... however, I do see BG handing everything over to BT and vaping being taxed on par with smoking.
as for NJOY? ... even though I don't use their products, I love these guys for what they have done for the fight so far ... without them, we might have already lost.
Unfortunately, I do believe NJOY will eventually be swallowed up by BT for billion$.
I honestly believe there are backroom deals being made between BG and BT right now ... one of the biggest and most important questions both sides are seriously asking each other ... what happens if everybody quits smoking with vaping?
Sorry about the negative post ... I wish I could see a better outcome than this ... however, there's just too much money at stake.
My first thought when I first puffed on an e-cig was "I think I can quit smoking with this thing!"
My second thought was " the government is shortly going to put a stop this!"
I spend a lot of time on here to learn all I can about such things as coil building and battery safety and how to DYI e-juice--not because I am the least bit interested in doing any of that--but I may have to.
I haven't had a drink in more than 30 years--but I have a still in my garage and I can make good vodka for about $4 a gallon. It's a nesessary skill and the tax boys can catch me if they can.
My second thought was " the government is shortly going to put a stop this!"
I spend a lot of time on here to learn all I can about such things as coil building and battery safety and how to DYI e-juice--not because I am the least bit interested in doing any of that--but I may have to.
I haven't had a drink in more than 30 years--but I have a still in my garage and I can make good vodka for about $4 a gallon. It's a nesessary skill and the tax boys can catch me if they can.
Dunno guys, everytime you say "ANTZ" it reminds me Colonel Fitts in American Beauty....
I've been collecting data and information (scientific) that can support the harm reduction and benefits of vaping over smoking cigarettes. Whenever I have someone tell me how bad vaping is I always ask for the source, most respond the news. I in turn hand them (whenever I can) some of the information I have collected and explain to them that that can become more educated by reading valid scientific information.
I use the vaping.com link here to see what's new and to build on my collection. It would be great if we could build a centralized repository for PDF documents that could support the harm reduction, health benefits and scientific positions on vaping. A place to upload files that the membership could access.
These could be used to send to our representatives in Washington, ANTZ, responding to propaganda and others that are misinformed. When we respond to articles it needs to be substantial, not just personal information about how it helped us but scientific published facts.
Fight the propaganda with scientific fact and what do they have left to fight. Get the information to the media and all over the net and educate the masses.
Setting up a repository would give us a great database of factual information to fight the good fight. If every time we responded to a propaganda story we posted a different paper from the repository our fight would be significantly stronger. We've got a store locator where you can submit shops, with as many members as we have on ECF we should be able to build a substantial library.
Just a thought, I could use some new material.
I use the vaping.com link here to see what's new and to build on my collection. It would be great if we could build a centralized repository for PDF documents that could support the harm reduction, health benefits and scientific positions on vaping. A place to upload files that the membership could access.
These could be used to send to our representatives in Washington, ANTZ, responding to propaganda and others that are misinformed. When we respond to articles it needs to be substantial, not just personal information about how it helped us but scientific published facts.
Fight the propaganda with scientific fact and what do they have left to fight. Get the information to the media and all over the net and educate the masses.
Setting up a repository would give us a great database of factual information to fight the good fight. If every time we responded to a propaganda story we posted a different paper from the repository our fight would be significantly stronger. We've got a store locator where you can submit shops, with as many members as we have on ECF we should be able to build a substantial library.
Just a thought, I could use some new material.
It's important to understand here that the FDA is a corrupt organization which is now out of control, perpetrating fraud against the consumer, under the current US Govt. What they are doing against the "Natural Supplement" companies is an extortion racket plain and simple and they intend to do the same against the vaping industry. There doesn't appear to be anybody ready or capable of taking them on and stopping this, even when the product(s) involved do not have the controversy of the vaping industry.
If you have any doubts on this you need to look at what FDA did with the drug colchecine in 2008/9, an anti-gout drug which is a plant extract and had been produced by several pharmaceutical suppliers for over 100 years at a cost of about 6cents per pill. As an "extract' it was not a FDA "approved" drug: ahah... an opportunity to commit fraud and fill the coffers. After much haggling and "application" harassment a certain pharma company "invested" $100M, $45M of which was paid to the FDA in application fees, and was given sole permission to produce colchecine along with a shiny new 20 year patent, good until 2029. A pill now costs ~$6. Imagine: a patent on plant extract which has been in use, in some form or another, for the same intended purpose for 3,000 years or so; gout-sufferers get gouged for over 100 times cost; the FDA gets rich and swells its ranks; an obscure pharma company gets an exclusive on a drug it had nothing to do with inventing.
Sad to say but in the face of this the vaping industry has no chance. Call it fraud, extortion, racketeering or whatever, it's how the FDA operates. Could the vaping industry form some kind of "guild", with self-inspected safety and suitability of its products, to gain a place at the FDA table? I'm not sure if there's time or money for that or if that would work but in the absence of some organized effort we are screwed.
If you have any doubts on this you need to look at what FDA did with the drug colchecine in 2008/9, an anti-gout drug which is a plant extract and had been produced by several pharmaceutical suppliers for over 100 years at a cost of about 6cents per pill. As an "extract' it was not a FDA "approved" drug: ahah... an opportunity to commit fraud and fill the coffers. After much haggling and "application" harassment a certain pharma company "invested" $100M, $45M of which was paid to the FDA in application fees, and was given sole permission to produce colchecine along with a shiny new 20 year patent, good until 2029. A pill now costs ~$6. Imagine: a patent on plant extract which has been in use, in some form or another, for the same intended purpose for 3,000 years or so; gout-sufferers get gouged for over 100 times cost; the FDA gets rich and swells its ranks; an obscure pharma company gets an exclusive on a drug it had nothing to do with inventing.
Sad to say but in the face of this the vaping industry has no chance. Call it fraud, extortion, racketeering or whatever, it's how the FDA operates. Could the vaping industry form some kind of "guild", with self-inspected safety and suitability of its products, to gain a place at the FDA table? I'm not sure if there's time or money for that or if that would work but in the absence of some organized effort we are screwed.
I'm not sure mixing vaping in with "natural supplements" is a wise move for the vaping community. Vaping is a legitimate smoking cessation tool. Not something some witch doctor in a straw hut or some hippie with a two day degree in homeopathy cooked up to cure cancer naturally.
Well, that's a big part of the problem: positive studies (almost all of them, anyway) NEVER get to the "news". That's why ANTZ will tell uninformed people that "there are no studies". I've been reading positive studies since late 2008! Those were the studies that convinced me to make the switch in the beginning of 2009. Trouble is, I had to LOOK for them.
Remember that recent "10x carcinogenics in e-cigs" nonsense? The "news" had to twist an yet UNPUBLISHED study, presenting the ONLY odd result as the "conclusion" of a study that was not even CONCLUDED yet...! And not a word about 9 out of 10 devices that presented very favourable results, in THAT same study!
But it gets even worse: those 9 devices simply confirmed ANOTHER study, by that SAME investigator, that was made recently. Another 13 devices tested, with very positive results. 4 of them did not emit measurable concentrations, and the maximum value was about 1/6 of those found in tobacco smoke. An already PUBLISHED study, for people to read, made by the SAME investigator. Were was the news uproar stating that "vaping is at least 6 times SAFER than smoking"?? Did you see one?
Because of that nonsense, a recent convert I know returned to smoking, one week after making the switch. Out of "precaution", because of that piece of "news". He told me he would rather smoke, until he his certain than vaping is safer. He stated that to "be certain", he must hear it "in the news". The same "news" that will distort SCIENTIFIC facts. SCIENCE is the ONLY thing that would make anyone "certain" to some extent; not the "news"...!
Yep... unfortunately, ANTZ's are winning, because they have biased "journalism" on their side, and a full horde of mindless readers who lost all thinking abilities and because of that, will accept any BS they hear as "scientific fact". And when you present SCIENCE to those people to counter those "facts" they "heard of", they will simply tell you that "you're just making excuses to keep vaping". Yes. I actually heard that one too...!
I dunno where you get your notion that I was advocating 'mixing vaping in with "natural supplements"'. I was only giving examples of the obscene tactics they have used and the extent of their, apparently allowed, misbehavior when they are supposedly protecting the American consumer.
Oh and vaping is much more than a "legitimate smoking cessation tool" - many people vape for the pure pleasure it brings, much like a nice cup of coffee or tea or a special snack, Straying on to visions of witch doctors and homeopathy is entirely your speculative, off-the-wall fantasy.
so true, my family is the same, first it was smoking and now i'm off em ...its my weight
Well, that's a big part of the problem: positive studies (almost all of them, anyway) NEVER get to the "news". That's why ANTZ will tell uninformed people that "there are no studies". I've been reading positive studies since late 2008! Those were the studies that convinced me to make the switch in the beginning of 2009. Trouble is, I had to LOOK for them.
Remember that recent "10x carcinogenics in e-cigs" nonsense? The "news" had to twist an yet UNPUBLISHED study, presenting the ONLY odd result as the "conclusion" of a study that was not even CONCLUDED yet...! And not a word about 9 out of 10 devices that presented very favourable results, in THAT same study!
But it gets even worse: those 9 devices simply confirmed ANOTHER study, by that SAME investigator, that was made recently. Another 13 devices tested, with very positive results. 4 of them did not emit measurable concentrations, and the maximum value was about 1/6 of those found in tobacco smoke. An already PUBLISHED study, for people to read, made by the SAME investigator. Were was the news uproar stating that "vaping is at least 6 times SAFER than smoking"?? Did you see one?
Because of that nonsense, a recent convert I know returned to smoking, one week after making the switch. Out of "precaution", because of that piece of "news". He told me he would rather smoke, until he his certain than vaping is safer. He stated that to "be certain", he must hear it "in the news". The same "news" that will distort SCIENTIFIC facts. SCIENCE is the ONLY thing that would make anyone "certain" to some extent; not the "news"...!
Yep... unfortunately, ANTZ's are winning, because they have biased "journalism" on their side, and a full horde of mindless readers who lost all thinking abilities and because of that, will accept any BS they hear as "scientific fact". And when you present SCIENCE to those people to counter those "facts" they "heard of", they will simply tell you that "you're just making excuses to keep vaping". Yes. I actually heard that one too...!
That last thing... that's called "projection," because they are in fact just making excuses in order to keep smoking! That's called rationalization!
Andria
Yeah... I'm not a substance abuser anymore, in fact I'm a downright respectable matron... But all I hear from my mom is "why won't you wear makeup and fix your hair?" Really, mom? To come here and clean your house, you want me to fix up like it's a night on the town???
I'm sticking to a bare face and ponytail for housework... oh, and vaping too! Andria
Well, that's a big part of the problem: positive studies (almost all of them, anyway) NEVER get to the "news". That's why ANTZ will tell uninformed people that "there are no studies". I've been reading positive studies since late 2008! Those were the studies that convinced me to make the switch in the beginning of 2009. Trouble is, I had to LOOK for them.
Remember that recent "10x carcinogenics in e-cigs" nonsense? The "news" had to twist an yet UNPUBLISHED study, presenting the ONLY odd result as the "conclusion" of a study that was not even CONCLUDED yet...! And not a word about 9 out of 10 devices that presented very favourable results, in THAT same study!
But it gets even worse: those 9 devices simply confirmed ANOTHER study, by that SAME investigator, that was made recently. Another 13 devices tested, with very positive results. 4 of them did not emit measurable concentrations, and the maximum value was about 1/6 of those found in tobacco smoke. An already PUBLISHED study, for people to read, made by the SAME investigator. Were was the news uproar stating that "vaping is at least 6 times SAFER than smoking"?? Did you see one?
Because of that nonsense, a recent convert I know returned to smoking, one week after making the switch. Out of "precaution", because of that piece of "news". He told me he would rather smoke, until he his certain than vaping is safer. He stated that to "be certain", he must hear it "in the news". The same "news" that will distort SCIENTIFIC facts. SCIENCE is the ONLY thing that would make anyone "certain" to some extent; not the "news"...!
Yep... unfortunately, ANTZ's are winning, because they have biased "journalism" on their side, and a full horde of mindless readers who lost all thinking abilities and because of that, will accept any BS they hear as "scientific fact". And when you present SCIENCE to those people to counter those "facts" they "heard of", they will simply tell you that "you're just making excuses to keep vaping". Yes. I actually heard that one too...!
This.
Those with an agenda against vaping have used their disinformation network (i.e. mainstream media) to terrify most people that vaping is a terrible threat, even more dangerous than smoking. The problem with trying to combat ignorance and fear with science and reason is:
a. Fear is one of the strongest and most difficult emotions to overcome.
b. It's easier to remain ignorant than to expend effort, especially to change a preconceived notion.
c. Ignorance breeds fear, which breeds more ignorance.
So, to effectively combat the targeted disinformation out there, we need to:
a. Tap into an emotion of the public that's as visceral as fear.
b. Make it easy for people to get the unbiased, scientific information they need.
c. Make it so that they feel good about making a rational choice.
Unfortunately, if we could do this, many of the world's problems would already have been solved. Most people don't value rationality or intellectual honesty, and I can't think of a way we could "scare" people into thinking vaping isn't a threat.
It's already pretty easy to get the scientific info... but they have to go look for it, and very, very few will do that -- when I pop out with one of my "little known facts of little interest to anyone", the most common response is "Howd yoo no dat?" The old answer was always "I read it in a book, you should try it sometime." But now the answer could just as easily be "I read it online," and we all know how that goes -- there's at least as much DISinformation online as actual truthful information, so it requires discrimination to separate the wheat from the chaff -- and considering that
Anyone with half a brain WOULD feel good about choosing vaping over smoking... unfortunately, it seems that people are more and more often being born with less than half a brain.
Thanks to the miracles of modern medicine and the omnipresent nanny state, somehow they can survive that way.Andria
I agree with a lot of what you stated. Fear is a base level primal emotion, it also carries a lot of other emotions with it which makes it more effective for supporting propaganda. There are only a few other emotions that are as basic and effective as fear- if that is a route you want to take. Anger, sadness, joy and love. Unfortunately these aren't as easy to tap into and "prey' on. Which is the whole point of fear tactics, it is desperate and manipulative and for those who see through it can be a motivating factor to get out there and counter the tactics.
Around Christmas time, I was walking into the mall using a mod and some random guy yelled at me "those things are worse than smoking". The mall was packed and there were a lot of people around so I couldn't let that slide. I "yelled" back "Where did you hear that"- which led to a short back and forth, not really yelling but talking loudly as we were not that close to each other with quite a few people in between who stopped to listen to the conversation. Of course, he was talking about the news story on the Japanese study. I had to set him straight about how the study was financed by the Japanese Health Ministry and was testing Japanese e Cigs. Only one of the eCigs had one chemical found to be higher in concentration than in traditional cigarettes and it is possible there was a malfunction of some kind because this is highly irregular. I told him there are studies that conclusively point to eCigs being "safer "than" traditional cigarettes with significantly less harmful chemicals. I also threw in BT was financing a lot of the anti-vaping propaganda because they are scared of losing customers- well that is what did it. He ends up saying- "Good, .... Big Tobacco, I hope you put them out of business. Have fun vaping" and walked away.
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As far as I can see around here, most doctors support vaping...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/120181-did-your-doctor-approve-your-vaping.html
The problem is not that they don't support vaping, but that they CAN'T do so publicly because of this...
What Does the Medical Profession Mean By Standard of Care?
In most cases I believe that liability can be avoided as long as the care provided is considered "customary" in the medical field...
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