The Elephant In The Room ...

[kinabaloo]

Jeez, can't imagine them supplying a pure high grade poison to
any private individual, I would guess they'd require assurances of a
safe-use environment.

Interesting that it can be made to USP conforming purity though


Perhaps Nick could set up a company & produce pure clean e-liquid
at a premium price ('just add your own flavour')


Nick 'the acid pH' of what?,
do you mean e-liquids, cos I measure my TW juice at pH 8.3

With all the hard distilling work done by NicoBrand, we don't need Nick

Only joking Nick. But if it were possible to get hold of nicotine at this purity (and effectiveness) then I might start the 'Elephant' no deposit juice range myself!

Very interesting in any case is the fact that it shows both that a very pure nicotine is possible (and from tobacco too) and that it can be freebase. That's what I want to see in our juices

A 36mg juice is 3.6% nicotine, so that 100g smallest size will go a long way - about 3 lires of 36mg juce!! Wonder if they'd sell it if diluted to say 10%? Will you give them a call? No harm in asking.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Jeez, can't imagine them supplying a pure high grade poison to
any private individual, I would guess they'd require assurances of a
safe-use environment.

It's not a restricted substance, and you don't need a licence to buy eg: gallons of 40% nicotine sulphate for insecticidal purposes. It's being phased out now in favour of less toxic neo-nicotinoids, but farmers used to use bowser-loads of it. I remember seeing 25L drums of the stuff in the Agricultural Merchants I used to get stuff from when I had my plant nursery (ought to drop in and see if they still stock it, but I do wonder what the other 60% is!)
Of course, pure freebase is more dangerous than a 40% salt solution, but there are still no legal restrictions on buying the stuff. I could easily have ordered it from Sigma-Aldrich when I had an account with them - I used to do a lot of tissue culture/micropropagation, involving some pretty nasty chemicals (carcinogenic, teratogenic, corrosive, you name it,) and they were perfectly happy to send colchichine, azide, conc.acids, all sorts of dangerous stuff

Interesting that it can be made to USP conforming purity though

Legally necessary for approved NRT products I'm sure (and pretty soon necessary for 'grey area' products like our juice I expect, if they don't just try to ban them outright.)

Perhaps Nick could set up a company & produce pure clean e-liquid at a premium price ('just add your own flavour')

The company's the easy bit - as a sole trader, all you legally need in the UK is to notify HMRC of your self-employed status for NI contributions and income tax, and open a business bank account(even that's not technically necessary, but you'll never be able to open an account with a chemical company without one,) - it's setting up the hazchem lab to have a safe environment to work in that will take the time and cost the money
Whether it's cost-effective to do that, I have no idea (so it's certainly not going to be my first approach).

If I could shift tens of litres per week wholesale, then it's cost-effective at something like Intellicig's trade price (or even less). If the market isn't there for that, then it isn't. I don't know, but I'll see how it goes. The cost of the ingredients is a pretty small factor in industrial-scale production.

Nick 'the acid pH' of what?,
do you mean e-liquids, cos I measure my TW juice at pH 8.3

Well, that's odd. The Chinese juices I've litmus tested show acid, but I don't have a working pH meter in the house any more, so I don't know how acidic. I'd assumed they all were.
I'd better get some more probes (or a new meter - this one's probably knackered,) and investigate...

 

[exogenesis]

They do imply intended uses as including NRT e.g. patches,
so they may be open to a sensible request/discussion about a
pure USP PG-diluted product formulation, given the possibilities.
I'd guess it would be a simple thing for them to do.

Would have thought an approach from an existing e-liquid supplier,
with 'volume business openings' would elicit a more positive response though.
Can't see them making a special formulation product for a single request.
Also experience of child-proof containers etc would help a lot.

It occurs to me that it's not impossible that ECOpure already
use this nicotine supply route. Maybe someone knows.

Minimum order 100g diluted to 36 mg/ml in PG = 2.8 liters e-liquid,
equals 3 years of heavyish vaping for one person.
Actually that doesn't sound too bad,
especially if it was split several ways, between people.

As you say, it won't hurt to ask, but maybe Nick is closer
to the idea, since he's getting ready to re-sell juice anyway ?


EDIT : Nick got there first

 

[kinabaloo]

As you say, it won't hurt to ask, but maybe Nick is closer
to the idea, since he's getting ready to re-sell juice anyway ?

Oh, I didn't know that Nick was thinking to do this.

So Nick, if you need anyone to join the board ...

 

[Nick O'Teen]

With all the hard distilling work done by NicoBrand, we don't need Nick

Only joking Nick. But if it were possible to get hold of nicotine at this purity (and effectiveness) then I might start the 'Elephant' no deposit juice range myself!

Go for it - I'll be your first customer. I'd frankly rather pay someone else to do the industrial compounding I'd always prefer to play with flavours (damn, this absinthe is gooood!) Nicotine's the drug, but where are you going to get a perfectly formulated tiramisu-flavoured vapejuice? (I'll give you a clue - it ain't gonna be Watson Pharmaceuticals )

Very interesting in any case is the fact that it shows both that a very pure nicotine is possible (and from tobacco too) and that it can be freebase. That's what I want to see in our juices

Sigma-Aldrich sell freebase nicotine (99.8% pure) for about £1/gram.
But like I say, the cost of the ingredients is not necessarily the most significant factor if you set up a commercial lab (that's why lo or no-nic costs the same as XXXhi-nic. The cost of the nicotine isn't a very relevant factor in the pricing structure.) It will have to be kitted out to approved standards, inspected regularly, lots of hassle and expense (and all the more so with a product intended for human consumption.)

You really can't do this safely or legally in your kitchen or a spare back room - Trading Standards and/or Environmental Health will close you down (unless you kill yourself first,) if you can't demonstrate that the product is handled and formulated in a safe environment.
Apart from anything else, you're not allowed to rinse nicotine down the sink - it's an environmental toxin. You'll have to satisfy them that every stage of the process is safe to the immediate environment, and that the product is safe to ship, and safe to consume. That suitable waste disposal arrangements are in place, that suitable protection is afforded to prevent or contain accidental spillage or leakage, that the extraction hood you're using is properly filtered to prevent atmospheric release (don't even think of doing it without a properly ventilated negative pressure cabinet.)

A 36mg juice is 3.6% nicotine, so that 100g smallest size will go a long way - about 3 lires of 36mg juce!! Wonder if they'd sell it if diluted to say 10%? Will you give them a call? No harm in asking.

Open a business bank account in the name of "Elephant Enterprises" or somesuch first, and they'll probably be very happy to do business with you.
If not, go to Sigma Aldritch. Sigma will only supply chemicals for research (not for production,) but hey, we're all guinea pigs anyway in this game
If they want to know what it's for (they won't,) tell them your working on insect control.

I'm tempted to say, if you want to buy a kilo of the stuff (if it's cheaper that way,) and put a group order together, count me in for a couple of hundred grams Disclaimer: that's dangerous advice, offered more than half in jest. Seriously - this ****'s dangerous. But it might be possible to put a group order together if we can get it ready-mixed with PG, or if we can find someone with a safe lab environment to mix it in.

 

[sherid]

Many excellent points in this thread, but the real elephant is the attitude of the health fascists who drive the anti-smoking agenda. It doesn't matter how safe you make it, it doesn't matter how clean the juice is, it doesn't matter if the vapour is demonstrably harmless. The anti-smoking killjoys (with the self-interested collusion of Big Tobacco and Big Pharma,) will continue to froth at the mouth demanding a ban, and assuming that they have the God-given right to persecute smokers. Because that's what we are in their eyes, smokers - and as such, a legitimate target for any amount of abuse and discrimination. And a good deal easier to crush than the more deeply-rooted analog smoking culture. They will lie, distort statistics, misprepresent the evidence, resort to any means to demonize us "for the greater good".

I sometimes think it's only a matter of time before we are placed on a social par with paedophiles and serial killers - I'm just waiting for the hysterical announcement that "new evidence shows the lethal dangers of fourth-hand smoking!" That should do it.

Thank God there are others who recognize the truth. NOW, what can we do about it?

 

[kinabaloo]

Nick - I only hope that someone does produce juces that leave no deposit; that will lead others to follow. I have too many other things to do right now, the legalities would be complex and the future is uncertain ...

I will do something on the hardware side, if at all.

Flavorings are a fascinating area in their own right. Actually smell moreso - that is far more discerning than taste.

ps: £100 for 3 litres of 36mg strength base juice - that's quite a deal!

 

[kinabaloo]

Minimum order 100g diluted to 36 mg/ml in PG = 2.8 liters e-liquid,
equals 3 years of heavyish vaping for one person.
Actually that doesn't sound too bad,
especially if it was split several ways, between people.

Now there's an understatement! Especially as this is freebase

At say £1/g that is £100 for 3 litres -ish. That's 100 30ml bottles.
So only just over £1 per 30ml bottle (36mg strength) !
With that bottle lasting about 2 weeks.

So less than 10p per day

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Now there's an understatement! Especially as this is freebase

It wouldn't stay freebase for long I fear

At say £1/g that is £100 for 3 litres -ish. That's 100 30ml bottles.
So only just over £1 per 30ml bottle (36mg strength) !
With that bottle lasting about 2 weeks.

So less than 10p per day

plus £x000 to set up, and £y000 a year to equip and run a lab that complies with all the various regulations. Plus £1.50 for each 30ml bottle with pipette dropper, plus the cost of labelling, childproof cap, flavourings, book-keeping, lab analysis, paperwork, red tape, rent, business rates, hiring staff... that's where the rest of the cost comes in. The big juice mills aren't actually making massively undue profits - business is complicated stuff, and the costs trickle down inevitably to the end-user.

 

[kinabaloo]

It wouldn't stay freebase for long I fear

plus £x000 to set up, and £y000 a year to equip and run a lab that complies with all the various regulations. Plus £1.50 for each 30ml bottle with pipette dropper, plus the cost of labelling, childproof cap, flavourings, book-keeping, lab analysis, paperwork, red tape, rent, business rates, hiring staff... that's where the rest of the cost comes in. The big juice mills aren't actually making massively undue profits - business is complicated stuff, and the costs trickle down inevitably to the end-user.

Sure; I know that. I'm just thinking about personal/small group order

Would need to be stored in fridge (or freezer?) in smaller air-tight jars with no air inside, or sealed with wax.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Nick - I only hope that someone does produce juces that leave no deposit; that will lead others to follow. I have too many other things to do right now, the legalities would be complex and the future is uncertain ...

I will do something on the hardware side, if at all.

I think that's the most promising avenue - the stuff seems inherently gunky, but an ultrasonic or 'indirect heat' vaporizer (piezoelectric/butane catalytic/whatever,) could get round the problems more feasibly I think.

Flavorings are a fascinating area in their own right. Actually smell moreso - that is far more discerning than taste.

Yes - you need a combination of both, and it's certainly the field that interests me most.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Sure; I know that. I'm just thinking about personal/small group order

Would need to be stored in fridge (or freezer?) in smaller air-tight jars with no air inside, or sealed with wax.

Fridge would be best. Air-tight would be particularly important once it's in solution (and it might be best to boil the PG first to expel any dissolved oxygen.)

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Thank God there are others who recognize the truth. NOW, what can we do about it?

I only wish I knew

 

[kinabaloo]

Nick - piezo would be nice if one could be sure there are minimal dy residues otherwise those dry residues would end up in the lungs.

 

[kinabaloo]

Thank God there are others who recognize the truth. NOW, what can we do about it?

You might be interested in this site that campaigns for health freedom : Welcome to the Alliance for Natural Health

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Nick - piezo would be nice if one could be sure there are minimal dy residues otherwise those dry residues would end up in the lungs.

I assumed dry residues would fail to atomize, and deposit with a piezo unit, but be easier to clean off. I mean, if you put one of those misters in a bowl of saltwater, and ran it until it had emptied the bowl, I think you'd be left with lots of salt, rather than a totally clean bowl, the salt having all been vaporized away.
At least they don't have a delicate, exposed coil to clog up and snap.

But I've never tried it, and I have an only hazy notion of how those things actually work, so I'm only guessing. I agree, it would definitely be best to keep solid residues out of your lungs, (whatever they are!)

 

[kinabaloo]

I assumed dry residues would fail to atomize, and deposit with a piezo unit, but be easier to clean off. I mean, if you put one of those misters in a bowl of saltwater, and ran it until it had emptied the bowl, I think you'd be left with lots of salt, rather than a totally clean bowl, the salt having all been vaporized away.
At least they don't have a delicate, exposed coil to clog up and snap.

But I've never tried it, and I have an only hazy notion of how those things actually work, so I'm only guessing. I agree, it would definitely be best to keep solid residues out of your lungs, (whatever they are!)

It's only vibration, though high frequency to ceate tiny droplets. Would be like sea air - salt still there, dissolved in the droplet mist. So without 'clean' juices it's a toss-up which system, heater or piezo, would be worse health-wise.

 

[kinabaloo]

The ideal hardware solution would be piezo to send a mist of juice to a heater coil. That is, a dual-technology solution that I been pushing for some time.

Why? Because the juice flow would be consistent and not rely on air-flow. And the juice would be within a sealed (yet refillable) container; something very likely to be legally required before long, I would expect (no chance of juice leakage into mouth).

Temperaure-controlled heater coil would be wise too; something I've already worked out how to do with a little electronics.

A piezo element would be ideal for this; think how they are used in ink-jet printer heads.

 

[LuckyCharm]

Why? Because the juice flow would be consistent and not rely on air-flow. And the juice would be within a sealed (yet refillable) container; something very likely to be legally required before long, I would expect (no chance of juice leakage into mouth). [...]
A piezo element would be ideal for this; think how they are used in ink-jet printer heads.

This stuff is ten miles over my head. But, is there any way you guys can actually make this? Please? If it could help with legalization as well as performance, and safety, I daresay some of us would pay any price not to go back to filthy analogs.

~~Cheryl

 

[Nick O'Teen]

A piezo element would be ideal for this; think how they are used in ink-jet printer heads.

I thought inkjets were thermal. Well, you learn something new every day!
If you ever build it, I think the customers will stampede to get their hands on one