The Elephant in the Room

[VHRB2014]

I've read around 33% of posts in this thread. Was glad to see Pamdis post on p.1 of this thread.

IMO, this is the biggest issue of them all with regards to vaping. I often say flavors is the biggest issue, but that's because it is one that will be dealt with (for sure) in my lifetime, and has realistic chance of being overcome soon. The kids vaping one is unrealistic to be met with rigorous, reasonable debate, anytime soon. This isn't my first rodeo, and so far I see emotion far outweighing rigorous debate on this topic.

I strongly believe kids should be allowed to vape. I further believe, and am very prepared to argue, that disallowing kids (as a whole segment of society) to vape is precisely at the core of "what is the problem with vaping."

I am very (very very) aware that I speak from a minority position on this topic. At same time, I do not back down from this debate unless censorship tells me we don't discuss this here. Then I will concede as I realize the majority of adults are very childish on this issue. Incredibly childish.

Kids are going to vape, as OP notes. Your policies, and hypocrisy, will not change this fact. You did 'bad things' when you were 18, but now no one after you should be allowed to do similar things. That equals hypocrisy. Thank God real life doesn't operate in that fashion. Kids are going to vape.

What makes us look bad as a community is not the kids issue. ANTZ logic, rhetoric and trappings are what makes vaping look bad. I say we should allow kids to vape, but that can, or likely will be, spun into a claim that says Jman8 says kids should be vaping. I don't think I'll ever say "kids should be vaping" or anyone should be vaping. But do believe I can be accurately quoted with "everyone should be allowed to vape."

The argument that supports kids being allowed to vape goes way way way deeper than vaping. Most (so called) adults I've met aren't prepared to have that discussion, as is very apparent by their arguments. Most are comfortable with the status quo. I've learned to accept the status quo and not get bent out of shape over these sort of discussions that amount to changing very little. I've learned to accept the idea that planting seeds is the best that can likely be achieved at this point in time.

There many nuances that can be had in this discussion as it relates to vaping, and kids. One that has been noted on this thread already is that it is presumptuous to think kids are automatically going to vape nicotine. When that is removed from the discussion, and yet kids are still vaping, I like to use that as a starting point for why do you really take issue with kids being allowed to vape?

I actually like this line of reasoning, and if not for better judgement could get on board with it. Its the softer easier way and would for the most part get rid of the consternation that surrounds the hypocrisy in our society.

That being said, what happens when, and it will happen, when little Jimmy blows his face off because he`s trying to impress the girls with his cloud blowing skills.

Sadly, I think that`s a deal breaker. Custom made for the lame stream media so to say. This OP after all, was all about the children, but has devolved into everything regulation due to the OP`s lack of focus.

 

[Jman8]

Even then. Sorry if you disagree.

Apology accepted.

In my reality, kids are going to vape. I call this fact. Sorry if that upsets you.

 

[Alien Traveler]

In my reality, kids are going to vape. I call this fact. Sorry if that upsets you.

So, in your reality kids are going to vape. Aren't they going to drink also?
Then, with the same reasoning, alcohol should be sold to kids.

 

[Tranquility Base]

For me it's up to the parents, at least with young kids ... and of course "young" is subjective, to kids and parents alike.

Serving a glass or two of wine with meals is an Italian custom my family practiced for generations. Real little kids might get just a splash of red wine in their juice or soda, just to turn it color, and to join in the ritual. Wasn't exactly "child abuse" by any means, little kids weren't stumbling around hammered and puking, but you know how people go nuts these days with "Oh, think of the children!" You can already serve alcohol to your kids and even let them vape without the Kid Police busting your door down. Of course, encouraging drinking or even vaping might be considered child abuse if the kid gets drunk or sick. My opinion is, if kids want to vape, they should do it out behind the church by the train tracks, where I used to have to go to smoke when I was a kid. Nobody wants to see those little punks blowing clouds. lol

Just wonder, if a parent catches a kid vaping, do they make him vape a whole gallon of e-liquid, the way parents used to make kids who got caught smoking a cigarette would make them smoke a whole carton?

 

[Lessifer]

Well, let's examine this. Looking at a few things with age restrictions.

Driving - age 16
Smoking - age 18
Voting - age 18
Drinking - age 21

What are the reasons for these age restrictions?
Driving, ok you need to be developed enough for the motor skills and hopefully have some sense of responsibility. Arguable at 16, but sure, why not?
Smoking, is harmful to your health, addictive, need to be old enough to make that decision for yourself.
Voting, hopefully you are old enough to make rational informed decisions that supposedly effect the population in general.
Drinking, mind altering, potentially harmful to your health, hopefully old enough to drink "responsibly."

Now let's take vaping. The science is still being done, but for the sake of argument I'm going to make these assumptions as I think they should be made until we know otherwise:
Marginally harmful to your health, similar to walking through a parking lot or living in a large city, as far as lung health.
Addictive, well, in the absence of other additives, some researchers say it is similar to caffeine on it's own, so marginally.
Physical safety, kids can blow just about anything up if they try hard enough.

So, why the age restriction?

 

[Plastic Shaman]

I actually like this line of reasoning, and if not for better judgement could get on board with it. Its the softer easier way and would for the most part get rid of the consternation that surrounds the hypocrisy in our society.

That being said, what happens when, and it will happen, when little Jimmy blows his face off because he`s trying to impress the girls with his cloud blowing skills.

Sadly, I think that`s a deal breaker. Custom made for the lame stream media so to say. This OP after all, was all about the children, but has devolved into everything regulation due to the OP`s lack of focus.

My initial post was just a kick off point. As I've said throughout this thread, I'm not talking about whether or not they should do so or whether we should protect them. My main interest is the growing population of child vapers and how this will affect the upcoming regulations. Of course the issue of whether or not they should do so will come up and I'm interested to hear what people think.

Anyways, I'm glad that you assumed you know what I'm arguing. Society would be boring without these kinds of assumptions. I'll attribute it to your inability to look beyond your own perceptions.

 

[Bored2Tears]

In reality, kids (and adults) are going to break every law on the books. We don't create our laws because we have the crazy idea that it actually stops all occurrence of crime. We create laws as a deterrent to undesirable behavior.

Minimum age of 18 to vape is a foregone conclusion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Maybe in some fluke they would allow 0 nic to be sold to minors. Beyond that good luck trying to change that outcome.

This has nothing to do with child abuse or anything of the sort. It has to do with societal norms. If you're way on the edges of the societal norm, then good luck convincing the overwhelming majority of society to move on over to your way of thinking.

 

[rbrylawski]

Apology accepted.

In my reality, kids are going to vape. I call this fact. Sorry if that upsets you.

Oh it doesn't upset me in the least. I just don't think we as responsible adults should just be resigned to kids doing whatever they want to do. Nor should we support that mentality. I don't object to a teenager vaping. I do object to little Jimmy or Mary being able to go online or walk in a store and buy a system, without parental consent.

And let's be realistic, while online vape shops ask us to verify we are over 18, any kid could check that they are and purchase anything they want online with a valid credit card. That's probably too easy. But maybe that's just me being sensible.


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[Bored2Tears]

Well, let's examine this. Looking at a few things with age restrictions.


Smoking, is harmful to your health, addictive, need to be old enough to make that decision for yourself.

So, why the age restriction?

Because the framework is already in place.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Now let's take vaping. The science is still being done, but for the sake of argument I'm going to make these assumptions as I think they should be made until we know otherwise:
Marginally harmful to your health, similar to walking through a parking lot or living in a large city, as far as lung health.

How do you know it? Are you assumptions sound?

Addictive, well, in the absence of other additives, some researchers say it is similar to caffeine on it's own, so marginally.

How do you know it? Are you assumptions sound? Are you saying it about nicotine?

You can choose what lever of harm (or uncertainty) you are ready to bear.
Kids (you know, they are kids) should not be allowed to do so.

 

[Lessifer]

Because the framework is already in place.

But vaping isn't smoking. Isn't that the point? The reason we are all here?

 

[Bored2Tears]

I'm sure BT would thoroughly enjoy watching the vaping community be split over these kinds of issues. Politically , the more we get hung up on issues that are already decided....the more distracted we are from the real problems. Don't worry, they realize that selling e liquid to minors is not an issue. They are gearing up for the real issues.

 

[Bored2Tears]

But vaping isn't smoking. Isn't that the point? The reason we are all here?

And methadone isn't ....... Doesn't mean they're gonna hand it out to kids.

 

[rbrylawski]

But vaping isn't smoking. Isn't that the point? The reason we are all here?

Be realistic. How many of us here weren't addicted to tobacco before we started Vaping? Most if not all of us VAPE so we won't smoke. If I was a teen today and I started Vaping and found it pleasurable and someone offered me a cigarette, I'd likely take it. You know teens believe they are invincible. Who's to say with 100% certainty that for the young, Vaping wouldn't be the gateway to smoking?


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[Lessifer]

How do you know it? Are you assumptions sound?



How do you know it? Are you assumptions sound? Are you saying it about nicotine?

You can choose what lever of harm (or uncertainty) you are ready to bear.
Kids (you know, they are kids) should not be allowed to do so.

At this point, my assumptions are as valid as yours, as long as yours are based on at least one peer reviewed scientific study. Kids are allowed to choose their level of harm for many things, every day. What food to eat, what drinks to drink, what physical activities to take part in, what volume level to listen to their music at...

 

[Lessifer]

Be realistic. How many of us here weren't addicted to tobacco before we started Vaping? Most if not all of us VAPE so we won't smoke. If I was a teen today and I started Vaping and found it pleasurable and someone offered me a cigarette, I'd likely take it. You know teens believe they are invincible. Who's to say with 100% certainty that for the young, Vaping wouldn't be the gateway to smoking?


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Have you tasted a cigarette since you started vaping?

 

[Lessifer]

And methadone isn't ....... Doesn't mean they're gonna hand it out to kids.

They will actually, if a doctor prescribes it, which places it in a whole other realm of substance.

I'm not saying there won't be age restrictions, that would be a pipe dream. I'm just saying let's not kid ourselves as to why there is an age restriction. It's because people, even vapers apparently, equate vaping to smoking. Even though it's not.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

They will actually, if a doctor prescribes it, which places it in a whole other realm of substance.

I'm not saying there won't be age restrictions, that would be a pipe dream. I'm just saying let's not kid ourselves as to why there is an age restriction. It's because people, even vapers apparently, equate vaping to smoking. Even though it's not.

I don't think that people necessarily equate it to smoking. I think a lot of people see it as an introduction of a drug that people generally do not believe that kids have the capacity to make a decision to consume. So, age restrictions make it harder to get a hold of these products and gives a disincentive for retailers to sell to children.

 

[Bored2Tears]

I guess maybe I'll just go on record as saying that society has done such an outstanding job of demonizing tobacco (and by proxy, nicotine) that it's unlikely you are going to shake the bad stigma nicotine has.

It is my belief that a nicotine addiction is about as harmless as a caffeine habit. The majority of people in our society are so thoroughly brainwashed on the subject of tobacco that they cannot separate the difference between nicotine and tobacco, and smoke or vapor.

E cigs have been on the scene for a while, but most people have no clue what vaping is.

The science does not matter to the general public. It matters to us, but it does not matter one bit to them. If they weren't former smokers or vapers, they are not going to understand why we would continue either habit? Get what I am saying? They don't care that we are addicted to killing ourselves with tobacco. They think we are weak, and simple minded for smoking.....and I don't think they are going to see vaping in a different light.

So why would the majority of people vote for legislation that would allow vaping to kids under 18? We can have this debate all day long. I would wager my last dollar that selling nicotine to anyone under the age of 18 is not going to be part of the forthcoming legislation.

 

[VHRB2014]

My initial post was just a kick off point. As I've said throughout this thread, I'm not talking about whether or not they should do so or whether we should protect them. My main interest is the growing population of child vapers and how this will affect the upcoming regulations. Of course the issue of whether or not they should do so will come up and I'm interested to hear what people think.

Anyways, I'm glad that you assumed you know what I'm arguing. Society would be boring without these kinds of assumptions. I'll attribute it to your inability to look beyond your own perceptions.

Whatever.

If your a lawyer then I must be Gandhi.