The Elephant in the Room

[beckdg]

Whoa, pamdis. That's a bold position. Not saying you're wrong or that I disagree with you.

Do you disagree that there may be a lot of children that will start vaping that would have never considered touching a cigarette? I've met a number of adults who were disgusted by smoking but are totally into vaping. I would assume that the same would apply to children, perhaps even more so.

The question here is what would they have tried. There are tons of options from clinical to over the counter to street corner.

Caffeine, nicotine, aspirin or 0 nic pg/vg. What's your stance?

Personally I'm more concerned about the flavors and rarely allow my kids bakery treats. But i do allow it...

Sent from my device.

 

[beckdg]

Unlike smoking, vaping doesn't ...... cost a fortune.

Smoking was cheap until taxes.
Vaping can certainly cost more than smoking if you allow it.
Deeming regulations could very easily put budget vaping over the cost of smoking.

Sent from my device.

 

[beckdg]

It would be nice if all parents were responsible or if they were all able to control their children, but that isn't the case.

And a law that has very minimum, if any repercussions to a minor is going to deter a minor from what exactly?

Sent from my device.

 

[beckdg]

You are missing the point. I am not against laws to restrict sales to minors. Although I do believe that perhaps coffee should be similarly restricted since caffeine and nicotine have more in common than not, but that is a side issue we should not go down.

The point I *AM* making is that we should not restrict these products when sold to adults, The "Elephant" argument is not about restricting sales to minors. It is about restricting sales to adults in order to prevent incidental use by minors evading the laws restricting sales to them.

And soda... Don't forget soda.

Sent from my device.

 

[Wow1420]

Obviously, neither of us have the evidence at the current point of time. However, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The FDA is concerned about it and there have been some surveys done that are showing that more and more children are trying e-cigs. Now, I know that a lot of people out there think these are biased, but they will be conducted. I personally believe that they will show a rise in use because I have seen it, I can imagine why children would want to try it, and I don't think that these surveys are entirely fabricated. I could be proven wrong.

As for the second point, I should have clarified that by saying that if there is an increase instead of because. In other words, part of the policy reasoning and goals of tobacco control was to reduce tobacco use in society. Since most smokers start when they are young, it should be possible to reduce use if you can stop youth from trying cigarettes. Due to this, Congress passed laws that allowed the FDA to take actions that would prevent youth from smoking, among other things (you can see this in the post I just made where I mentioned the flavored cigarettes). IF there is evidence that more young people are picking up e-cigs, then the FDA will have more reasons to strictly regulate, especially with things like flavors.

As for playing devil's advocate, I do like to think and talk about these things, but I'm not advocating for regulation. Sorry if I was confusing in that sense. I just think that people should look at all sides of the issue. The fact is that this is something that the FDA takes into account and it is currently collecting data about vaping among youth. It's in the proposed rules and it's one of the major policy concerns. It will be taken into consideration when they make their rules and and in any future regulations and legislation. If the only concern was whether or not children were using e-cigs, it would be sufficient to simply pass laws that outlawed sales to minors.

What I don't accept is the notion that nicotine equals tobacco. It may be derived from tobacco, but it is not the same. Nicotine has been well studied in the form of NRT products and no long term harm is being found with those products. When alcohol, caffeine and even "other stuff" (in a few states) is allowed for adults, I don't see why nicotine (absent combustion) should be demonized.

 

[Rossum]

Smokers who are trying to stop smoking cigarettes are likely to use nic liquid, but why would anyone else? Tobacco smoke affects the brain within seconds (thanks to the additional chemicals added to tobacco to quicken/enhance the sensation/buzz). How long does it take to get the same "buzz" when you vape? Anyone got a non-nicotine using adult friend that's willing to be experimented upon so we can find out? lol

The nicotine in vapor hits someone who has no tolerance to it within seconds as well. Shortly after I switched from smoking I was vaping some 18 mg cocoa liquid when my wife (who has never used nicotine) noted, "Hey, that smells really good!" So I handed it to her and said, "Here, try it." She took one hit and within seconds said, "Wow, I feel really weird, do you feel like this all the time?" She's refused to try any of my vapes since.

 

[Kenna]

+100, Auntie Mame!

 

[edyle]

So, I see a lot of vapers pointing out the flaws in the reasoning and misperceptions of those opposed to e-cigarettes. However, I really don’t see people talking about the issue that a lot of critics bring up; minors and vaping. I spend a lot of time in shops and checking places out. I have seen many people under 18 vaping and trying to buy e-cigs. Most of the shops in my area are fairly ethical and won’t sell to minors without ID. Even so, I have seen parents who are willing to make these purchases.

I think that the opponents of vaping may have some legitimate points in this matter. My evidence is anecdotal, but I’m willing to wager that there will be studies that show that a number of children are starting to vape. Now, I don’t believe that these products are marketed towards children. Also, I don’t believe that e-cigs are the root of the issue. The fact is that none of us started smoking by accident. We all started smoking for our own reasons, no matter how misguided (I thought that it would make me look cool). The coming generations will continue to do these things for their own reasons, regardless of the existence of e-cigs.

Still, there is going to be a growing population of children vaping. Perhaps the percent of young people who will start using tobacco products will be greater with the advent of vaping. Additionally, there is growing population of adults who have started vaping who never smoked, so I don’t doubt that there is a certain allure to vaping. I’m just curious how other people feel about this. Any comments, thoughts, or death threats are greatly appreciated (I’m kidding about the death threats).

You could take out 'vaping' and replace it with 'using a condom' in the above statement.

 

[Big Me]

The nicotine in vapor hits someone who has no tolerance to it within seconds as well. Shortly after I switched from smoking I was vaping some 18 mg cocoa liquid when my wife (who has never used nicotine) noted, "Hey, that smells really good!" So I handed it to her and said, "Here, try it." She took one hit and within seconds said, "Wow, I feel really weird, do you feel like this all the time?" She's refused to try any of my vapes since.

Thank you for this. I truly didn't know what effect it would have on a non user.

 

[skoony]

it never was about saving the children.
its about money.if it were about the children
they would do reverse compliance checks and
arrest children that have and use these products.
though admittedly with alcohol when someone gets hurt
or as a tactic against chronic juvenile offenders
they have been charging minors more frequently.
what they want is a adult to be responsible as to
be able to fine them.they need these kids doing
these things so they can heavily regulate then
punitively tax these activities to protect the children.
heaven forbid they actually made an effort to nip
this problem in the bud at the source and go after
those brats with the full force of the law.

regards
mike

 

[dhood]

First, let me state that of the 10 local shops I visit, NONE of them sell to minors under 18 and they have signs on the doors stating that.

That being said, maybe I'm too far removed from the age groups involved, but can ANYONE on this forum tell me about just ONE person who started vaping and then moved on to smoking cigarettes because it was more satisfying??? Or for that matter, can anyone name a non-smoker who started vaping at zero nic and moved up the chain to more nic? This whole straw man argument about an increase in underage smoking because of vaping has got to be one of the most ludicrous assumptions I've ever heard. It's the "for the chiiiiiildren" argument that is used for so many governmental institutions to pass new laws and regulations. I'm sorry but our government was never meant to be mommy or daddy to the general public.

To me, this whole argument by Plastic Shaman is just ridiculous on its face. If you want to ban the sale nic products to minors, fine. We already do that with cigarettes. But to argue that because vaping is somehow attractive to youth that it will lead to an increase in smoking analogs.... get real.

Sorry about typos and grammatical errors. The more i read through the arguments, the angrier i got. my hands are actually shaking while i type this

 

[readeuler]

I'm about less worried about kids vaping than I am worried about them using Nicorette Quickmist, and leave it at that.

Actually, that's misleading. I'm not at all worried about kids vaping.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

First, let me state that of the 10 local shops I visit, NONE of them sell to minors under 18 and they have signs on the doors stating that.

That being said, maybe I'm too far removed from the age groups involved, but can ANYONE on this forum tell me about just ONE person who started vaping and then moved on to smoking cigarettes because it was more satisfying??? Or for that matter, can anyone name a non-smoker who started vaping at zero nic and moved up the chain to more nic? This whole straw man argument about an increase in underage smoking because of vaping has got to be one of the most ludicrous assumptions I've ever heard. It's the "for the chiiiiiildren" argument that is used for so many governmental institutions to pass new laws and regulations. I'm sorry but our government was never meant to be mommy or daddy to the general public.

To me, this whole argument by Plastic Shaman is just ridiculous on its face. If you want to ban the sale nic products to minors, fine. We already do that with cigarettes. But to argue that because vaping is somehow attractive to youth that it will lead to an increase in smoking analogs.... get real.

Sorry about typos and grammatical errors. The more i read through the arguments, the angrier i got. my hands are actually shaking while i type this

At no point was I trying to imply that vaping would lead to children smoking. I think I even said that that concept was absurd.

 

[baseballmom]

My eldest son has moved up to high school this year, now vaping and e cigs were hardly known in middle school, but now in hs there are a lot of kids vaping, it's currently considered "trendy"/"cool". I ask out of curiosity and he's not always sure, but most is 0mg and starter kit type stuff from the sounds of it, who knows if they would have tried cigarettes or not, or if have already first, some I know have, it's hard enough to keep tabs on him, takes a network, let alone his friends...where they are getting stuff is from older siblings and friends more so than parents, I don't think most parents know(most kids are being secretive about it, hiding from them just like some are hiding other stuff now and in past), the only reason he talks to me openly is probably is because I vape and have somewhat of a clue about this at least. My son has to save $ for a lot of his extra goodies just like I did, and has no interest in spending his cash on e cigs upkeep, juices, etc and knows we wouldn't be getting for him anyway, same thing when I smoked, I bought my own as a teen too, if I insisted in smoking, my parents were certainly not enabling it...he knows this stuff costs money and for him, feels it's a waste of his personal funds(he's more into sneakers and saving for a car) , so he finds it a bit silly to spend money on this trying to look cool vs. trying to quit in first place, he's also aware of dangers of other things especially when could ruin his baseball playing/team prospects(d&a), and honestly, I am probably more fearful of the alchohol and related stuff-alchohol poisoning, drunk driving....that stuff actually really scares me pretty bad as a parent, I don't know the long term effects of vaping, and I can only control my household, so that is my main focus and at times, worry, yeah I don't promote/support/encourage his peers doing it, but that's for their parents to deal with. If his friends or their parents want to talk to me, they'll get my stance, but they make their own decisions in the end. I know some stores still to this day sell cigs to minors around my area, which was a surprise, the local true vape shops have been good about no sales to minors actually imo. I'm curious to see how many continue once the initial novelty wears off and upkeep costs set in for these teens cause I just don't see the ease in continuing for most of them or the worthwhile of it either.

 

[skoony]

Well, the original point that I was trying to get at, and I don't know if I did it well, is that the incidental laws that would affect adults are not going to be passed simply by virtue of children using something that they shouldn't. That's just a symptom. The real issue is that vaping might, and I think it will, increase the overall use of tobacco, starting with children that will go with them throughout life. This is one of the reasons we passed so many laws against cigarettes. This is one of the issues that the FDA is looking at when they are thinking about regulation. Because there is an increase in tobacco use due to vaping, as evidenced by how children are attracted to vaping, there is more justification to regulate. If the issue was simply that children do it, the best remedy, besides making it illegal, would be to restrict sales with age limits.

tobacco use by youth has flat lined and is at historic lows.
most youth who have tried e-cigarettes were already smokers.
a rise in use of tobacco is not expected.ergo the use of e-cigarettes
should not lead to an increase in tobacco use.
the significant decrease in smoking over the last 2-3 years among
adults is directly attributable to e-cigarettes as usage previously
was appearing to flat line.

mike

 

[Plastic Shaman]

My eldest son has moved up to high school this year, now vaping and e cigs were hardly known in middle school, but now in hs there are a lot of kids vaping, it's currently considered "trendy"/"cool". I ask out of curiosity and he's not always sure, but most is 0mg and starter kit type stuff from the sounds of it, who knows if they would have tried cigarettes or not, or if have already first, some I know have, it's hard enough to keep tabs on him, takes a network, let alone his friends...where they are getting stuff is from older siblings and friends more so than parents, I don't think most parents know(most kids are being secretive about it, hiding from them just like some are hiding other stuff now and in past), the only reason he talks to me openly is probably is because I vape and have somewhat of a clue about this at least. My son has to save $ for a lot of his extra goodies just like I did, and has no interest in spending his cash on e cigs upkeep, juices, etc and knows we wouldn't be getting for him anyway, same thing when I smoked, I bought my own as a teen too, if I insisted in smoking, my parents were certainly not enabling it...he knows this stuff costs money and for him, feels it's a waste of his personal funds(he's more into sneakers and saving for a car) , so he finds it a bit silly to spend money on this trying to look cool vs. trying to quit in first place, he's also aware of dangers of other things especially when could ruin his baseball playing/team prospects(d&a), and honestly, I am probably more fearful of the alchohol and related stuff-alchohol poisoning, drunk driving....that stuff actually really scares me pretty bad as a parent, I don't know the long term effects of vaping, and I can only control my household, so that is my main focus and at times, worry, yeah I don't promote/support/encourage his peers doing it, but that's for their parents to deal with. If his friends or their parents want to talk to me, they'll get my stance, but they make their own decisions in the end. I know some stores still to this day sell cigs to minors around my area, which was a surprise, the local true vape shops have been good about no sales to minors actually imo. I'm curious to see how many continue once the initial novelty wears off and upkeep costs set in for these teens cause I just don't see the ease in continuing for most of them or the worthwhile of it either.

I think your point is really interesting, as well as someone else who was talking about quitting e-cigs being easier than quitting smoking.

I have no idea if this could be something that will just be a passing trend among children. If this is the case, then it suggests that it really isn't that addictive. It would take a while to show this and even longer to convince opponents of tobacco use that this is the case. I hope that continuous use is something that is looked at in future studies.

 

[rbrylawski]

I haven't read all the posts, so I'm sure someone else pointed this out. But I'd rather see a minor vape, even one who has never smoked a cigarette if it means they'd never smoke a cigarette......EVER. Sad thing is kids believe they're invincible. As such, too many kids still start smoking. At least Vaping is a much safer alternative. Don't get me wrong though. I'd rather see a minor never want to get hooked on anything. And I support laws which make it very difficult for a minor to walk in a vape shop and walk out with a mod and juice. Yes I do.

I was in my local vape store yesterday buying juice. A mother was there with her teenage son and she was basically forcing him to buy an e-cig system. I mean she was buying him one. He'd become a smoker at a very young age and to her, vaping was a much better alternative for her beloved child. I actually was really impressed with her attitude. Neither she nor her son's father were smokers and she didn't want her son to be one either. But she recognized how addictive nicotine is and how awful the risks of smoking, so there she was helping her 15 year old son by buying him something that hopefully he'll use and stop smoking.

So while the OP does make a good point there is an elephant in the room, sometimes that elephant can help someone avoid a lifelong addiction to something that has a high likelihood of killing them.

 

[DrMA]

I'm very confused why vapers who have rejected "quit or die" for themselves continue to argue for imposing such nonsense on minors. After all, minors who smoke also deserve the right to switch to a much safer alternative. Also they can be put on the useless and disgusting BP NRT at 12 with FDA's blessing, so why not vaping?

 

[Plastic Shaman]

I haven't read all the posts, so I'm sure someone else pointed this out. But I'd rather see a minor vape, even one who has never smoked a cigarette if it means they'd never smoke a cigarette......EVER. Sad thing is kids believe they're invincible. As such, too many kids still start smoking. At least Vaping is a much safer alternative. Don't get me wrong though. I'd rather see a minor never want to get hooked on anything. And I support laws which make it very difficult for a minor to walk in a vape shop and walk out with a mod and juice. Yes I do.

I was in my local vape store yesterday buying juice. A mother was there with her teenage son and she was basically forcing him to buy an e-cig system. I mean she was buying him one. He'd become a smoker at a very young age and to her, vaping was a much better alternative for her beloved child. I actually was really impressed with her attitude. Neither she nor her son's father were smokers and she didn't want her son to be one either. But she recognized how addictive nicotine is and how awful the risks of smoking, so there she was helping her 15 year old son by buying him something that hopefully he'll use and stop smoking.

So while the OP does make a good point there is an elephant in the room, sometimes that elephant can help someone avoid a lifelong addiction to something that has a high likelihood of killing them.

I totally agree with you.

I can tell that I'm getting a lot of hate here, which is fine. It's worth being hated if I get to learn people's opinions and arguments on a topic that's difficult to talk about.

Just to clarify my point, if the only effect is that the children who would have started smoking are starting to vape, then that's great. Even if there is a small rise in tobacco use from children who would never have started if not for e-cigs, I still think that the good outweighs the bad.

My point, and I don't deny that time and research may prove me wrong, is that there are a large number of children starting to vape who would never have started smoking. Traditionally, tobacco use was something that started in youth and persisted for many years after that. Due to this, prospective measures have been one of the ways that we have tried to reduce overall tobacco use. In other words, if you can do everything possible to stop children from using, the overall levels of users will be significantly reduced over time.

If vaping is addictive and a much larger number of children are starting than would have started smoking, it's a concern since it will increase overall tobacco use and give more justification for regulation. Now, I'm not saying that regulation is the answer or that there is a serious problem with people vaping, as we don't know that yet, but it is something to think about and have some open discussions about.

 

[readeuler]

The most recent data is from 2013. The CDC had conducted this years NYTS and posted a press release about skyrocketing ecig use among teens, but has yet to release the actual data set for several months; i.e., it really looks like they're lying and won't have a leg to stand on, once it's clear that no, children are not taking up ecigs en masse.

http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/bill-godshall-update-2014-08-29.html
From the most recent data available:

Consistent with other surveys, CDC 2013 National Youth Tobacco Survey (NYTS) finds:
- 0.4%, 0.8%, 0.9% of never smokers reported 'ever use' of an e-cig in 2011, 2012, 2013

No hate whatsoever, just passing along some info gleaned from the News and Legislation section over the past several months.