The Elephant in the Room
- Thread starter Plastic Shaman
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I see this thread has continued, yet unresolved. For me the point of this whole thread is that the vaping community hasn't even settled on whether or not minors should be allowed to purchase nicotine liquids.
Most of my posts have dealt with the fact that the Federal agencies are looking at this industry, and regulations are coming. No point in quibbling about no regulations because there WILL BE regulations. May as well have some discussion / debate over what moderate or reasonable regulations are acceptable.
Or maybe not... but again, I guarantee you that Big Tobacco and BP have no misgivings about whether or not minors will be buying nicotine juice. And I for one am pretty convinced that there will be labeling and / or testing of these liquids.
But yes, this thread is trying to accomplish too broad of topics. Minors can't buy e liquid. My
I'm not sure I've seen a legitimate reason for why minors shouldn't be allowed to vape. Zero rationale for why minors can't vape zero nic juice. None. Nada.
I've spoken directly on this topic and you won't see me being shy or sheepish with my point of view. Kids are going to vape, that is a fact.
And because they are subjected to an underground market, then they are arguably in more danger due to this. But, hey, that's how the (so called) adults want it.
Just as there are for sure going to be regulations, there are for sure going to be restrictions against minors. I may dispute that all day long, but even I know that of all regulations for vaping, that is item #1 and way way way ahead of "what ingredients are in your juice."
Anybody who thinks the FDA is against kids using nicotine hasn't been paying attention. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-nicorette-quickmist-safe-use-kids-12-up.html
I don't think sloth is being alarmist. After reading the proposed FDA regs I think he's being pretty realistic.
Maybe, maybe not. Let's check back here in a couple of years and find out, shall we?
By the way, most of ya'll are probably too young, but did you ever hear of cyclamates? There were outright banned in this country (though not Canada) over fears about long term health effects. That, and the sugar industry was actively lobbying against them. Turns out they were perfectly safe all along! Who knew? Oh well, by the way, it's still banned in the US 50 years later.
How about saccharine? Did you know the USDA tried to get that one banned outright as well, even though there was no evidence that it was in any way harmful? That one got banned in Canada but not the US, and the ban was eventually lifted in Canada.
But no, there's no reason to fear that the FDA would ever declare a moratorium on any of our vaping products
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AEMSA isn't the only one in the industry that is organized and calls for standards. There is SFATA as well.
In their "Statement of Principles" the first 3 deal with 'no sales to kids' which, on principle, I cannot repost, but I've linked to that. The other principles they have are in the following quote:
Yeah, and people wonder why the an average new car now costs over thirty thousand dollars. Or why cars are often totalled by insurance companies for what 20 years ago would have relatively minor damage. Or why car insurance is so expensive. If you want a car with a dozen airbags, a rear-view camera, electronic stability control, tire pressure monitoring, etc, you should be free to buy one, but the bloke who can't afford all that crap (or simply doesn't want the complexity) should should have the option not to.
Oh Puhleeze......cars cost more. Houses cost more. Groceries, electricity, water, entertainment, travel, gas, well just about every single thing we purchase costs more. But when you take into consideration the rate of inflation, not as much more than those cars of 20 years ago. And maybe the bumpers on those cars were harder to dent, but more people died in car accidents in those cars 20 years ago. So if you think we were better off then, good for you. I'll pay the higher price and be comforted that my dozen airbags and anti-lock brakes may just save my life a little better if someone runs a red light and rams into me.
Use an inflation calculator. The first car I ever bought new was a Honda Accord in 1976. I paid $6000 for it. Today, that would translate to $25,194.
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Yep. The difference is, standards are voluntarily complied with while regulations are enforced at gunpoint. Standards allow consumers to retain choices, for example to buy their milk raw or pasteurized. Regulations produce produce raids of heavily armed agents on farms and stores peaceably and honestly selling raw milk to consumers who explicitly want raw milk. Standards would allow those who are worried about what's in their e-liquid to buy it from vendors who join AEMSA (or a similar body) but without taking away the freedom of consumers to buy something that isn't included in the standard, for example WTA liquid. Regulations will result in armed raids on anyone daring to sell liquids that haven't been "FDA Approved", and it's extremely unlike that WTA liquid would ever get such approval. Choices. You wanna KNOW what's in your liquid? Buy it from someone who's willing to tell you. Fraud is already illegal.
Wow. This is so convincing, that you just changed my mind. We should sell this stuff to minors if it does all that. It actually prevents addiction to cigarettes. I reject my prior reality and accept yours. I'm sure the FDA or whichever regulatory authority that's on the opposing side of the table from you will be as thoroughly intimidated and convinced as I am.
Wondering why my skin condition isn't improving cause I'm vaping quite a bit. Hadn't noticed.
I didn't say Johnson was a successful President. I said politician. And I'm not referring to his popularity.... I'm referring to his ability to get legislation through that he wanted.
You've convinced me to reject my prior reality and adopt yours.
May I ask a question?
Most, if not all of us who have posted to this thread are former smokers. While BT finally gave up their list of ingredients, I swear I never really ever knew what exactly was in my brand of choice.
I just went looking for a food in my house that is processed. My husband likes those horrid flavored coffee creamers. I insist that he not get the ones with partially hydrogenated oils. So, the one he uses has water, sugar, cream, natural and artificial flavors, sodium caseinate, artificial color salt and carrageenan. I don't know and I don't think he knows what those artificial flavors and colors are.
If you drink soft drinks, you know that Coke et all protects their recipes and we just know of "artificial and natural flavorings" and we know that they usually contain a drug, caffeine.
I sometimes buy scented candles. I sometimes buy air freshener. If we spray them in our air, or if the scent comes from a burning candle, aren't we inhaling whatever gave those items their scent?
What makes our e liquid so different?
Most, if not all of us who have posted to this thread are former smokers. While BT finally gave up their list of ingredients, I swear I never really ever knew what exactly was in my brand of choice.
I just went looking for a food in my house that is processed. My husband likes those horrid flavored coffee creamers. I insist that he not get the ones with partially hydrogenated oils. So, the one he uses has water, sugar, cream, natural and artificial flavors, sodium caseinate, artificial color salt and carrageenan. I don't know and I don't think he knows what those artificial flavors and colors are.
If you drink soft drinks, you know that Coke et all protects their recipes and we just know of "artificial and natural flavorings" and we know that they usually contain a drug, caffeine.
I sometimes buy scented candles. I sometimes buy air freshener. If we spray them in our air, or if the scent comes from a burning candle, aren't we inhaling whatever gave those items their scent?
What makes our e liquid so different?
I think that all of that stuff has yet to be proven safe. But unlike drinks and food, we're inhaling it. Unlike scented candles, we are inhaling a lot of it. It's a matter of research.
Not in the case of cyclamates. The use of cyclamates has been approved in 55 countries. They've been banned in the US for over 50 years now, even though not one credible shred of evidence exists that there are any long-term consequences. The people who made the laws banning them are probably mostly dead by now. Yet, they're still banned in the US. So, how exactly do you prove that something is safe, and how do you get the government to retract the ban after its enacted? Tell me, because we don't seem to do a particularly good job of it here in this country.
Edit: factual correction, they've been banned for 45 years in the US, not over 50.
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It's hard. Not saying I'm not. It's like the comic code. Our system isn't aways efficient, but it's better in other ways. Government with a lot of regulation has trade offs.
The FDA already has more evidence that vaping pure VG is hazardous to your health than they had with the cyclamate ban. What does that tell you about our likely prospects to be allowed to continue vaping?
Well, they can't ban it under the statute. In the purpose of the statute section, it says that nothing in the statute would authorize the FDA to ban the sale of tobacco products to adults. They would need a separate statute to ban it. Yes, they can impose regulation, but I don't see it being banned.
So, what's so hard about creating a separate statute, or just reclassifying it as a controlled substance?
Well, nothing. Congress would just have to do it. The FDA can't do it. They are working within the statutes that Congress gave them.
So, if congress gets a lot of campaign funds from BT, BP, or other entities that think vaping should be stopped, and if popular opinion is not against that action, then there's absolutely nothing preventing them from doing that?
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