The Elephant in the Room

[Alien Traveler]

its not that its the most important thing i our lives,it does however represent
how our lives are affected by the very government that's sworn to protect our
liberties
this whole debate is what is wrong and right about how government thinks and acts
as if it were the end all and be all in every little thing in the lives of the people
it supposedly represents
current political theory postulates government as nothing more than a means
of obtaining larger and ever increasing revenue streams so as to placate the
masses and maintain control, to maintain the status quo,(appeasing special interest groups)
and maintain the reins of power.(get re-elected)
we quite frankly are feed up with it.
regards
mike

Possibly the best post in the thread.
Except for the last line: "we quite frankly are feed up with it". Reality shows something very different (when "we" means population as a whole).

 

[skoony]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 14558680" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Possibly the best post in the thread.
Except for the last line: "we quite frankly are feed up with it". Reality shows something very different (when "we" means population as a whole).

quite right.
i meant we as in us,not them.

mike

 

[stevegmu]

Except... They're cigarettes. Any movement and price and regulation is going to have a miniscule effect on consumption and / or addiction.

Sent from my device.

I know when I lived in Russia cigarettes were dirt cheap and smoking was allowed pretty much everywhere, so I smoked a lot...

 

[wshanncap]

Just because it wouldn't hurt them per-se doesn't mean that it should be anything goes. “Where there is no law there is no freedom”. John Locke - Second Treatise of Government, Ch. VI, sec. 57

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Just because it wouldn't hurt them per-se doesn't mean that it should be anything goes. “Where there is no law there is no freedom”. John Locke - Second Treatise of Government, Ch. VI, sec. 57

It's always good to see someone on here read the Second Treatise!

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Part of the problem is trying to talk science to a politician. Appearance is everything to them. If it looks like smoking, it's smoking. Most have no interest in educating the general public. Easier to get elected by chiming in with the chorus. Try explaining the benefits of funding an ongoing manned space flight program to someone who thinks cavemen rode around on dinosaurs like Fred Flintstone, or who think wind is made by the leaves on trees moving around. God bless America.

To be frank, I totally agree with you. So does most of the government (other than the Republicans who want to do away with regulatory agencies and believe Congress can understand and have time to answer ever question, but that's another issue). Now, politicians won't say it in the terms in which you've stated it. However, the point of agencies are to establish regulations based on statutes that Congress doesn't have the time or expertise to deal with. Now, whether you or I think that the agencies are being biased in their research and decisions is another matter.

If you are really passionate about this, you need to start focusing on campaign finance reform. Write your congressmen and ask why the don't amend the APA to forbid all ex parte contacts during the note and comments period. Ask them why politicians are allowed to be on committees that directly relate to their donor's interests. This issue is bigger than e-cigs.

 

[beckdg]

I know when I lived in Russia cigarettes were dirt cheap and smoking was allowed pretty much everywhere, so I smoked a lot...

Meanwhile back in 'merica cigarette prices went up 200% in just a few short years. To afford them people simply switched brands or rolled their own. I, for example, was buying tobacco in 5 pound bales and tubes in 5 carton packs to get a better price at the end there.

Sent from my device.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

So, if the FDA should regulate all tobacco products, particlulary for the sake of the children, and congress only has our best interests in mind, why does the current deeming proposal exempt premium cigars?

I think this is an important point that people don't fully understand. Like I said, the FDA has the duty to look at all tobacco products and probably bring them under their jurisdiction. However, regulatory agencies also have a lot of different ways they can do stuff and they can change their own internal regulations as long as they are not going outside the authority granted by the law.

Now, I think that SFATA (If I got the acronym, I'm sorry) made some suggestions that e-cigs should have some exemptions based on the nature of the industry. Also, only one of the options said that cigars can be exempted, but the other one included cigars.

We can look at this two ways. CASAA took the position that this was the FDA discriminating against e-cig users and rich cigars smokers. I suppose that's one way to see it.

The other possibility is that the FDA recognized that there are a ton of small cigar manufactures, most who import to us, and that the process would be too cumbersome and would destroy the cigar industry in this country.

I know, this is the same situation with e-cigs. Maybe the FDA hates e-cigs and this is all part of a plan. Maybe the FDA just doesn't understand e-cigs. Their proposed rules do not show any kind of method of how to deal with these products or what they entail as a whole. It could be that the FDA is still getting a sense of this and thought that all e-cigs are just little plastic cartridges.

I don't know. A lot of people here will say that my second scenario is absurd and it's just the FDA. If there is any other statement on why they have proposed exempted cigars, but not e-cigs, or just comments on the exemptions in general, I'd love to see them. I'll say this though. I'm a really cynical about politics and government. Despite this, I don't think that every action is some conspiracy. Even if I do think something else is going on, I don't see the point in going on about it or calling out the FDA in your comments. Alerting the public to these things is important, but you probably can't show such things without a long history of abuse.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

You may be right about that. More of the members should get to know their history of what they have done so they can form a true deep seeded hate for the FDA. Basing that hate on what might happen is completely unnecessary.

Sent from my device.

Agree in part. Angry that Chiantix is still humming along and what the FDA is trying to do with vaping. The FDA blunders many of things but also gets a lot right.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I think this is an important point that people don't fully understand. Like I said, the FDA has the duty to look at all tobacco products and probably bring them under their jurisdiction. However, regulatory agencies also have a lot of different ways they can do stuff and they can change their own internal regulations as long as they are not going outside the authority granted by the law.

Now, I think that SFATA (If I got the acronym, I'm sorry) made some suggestions that e-cigs should have some exemptions based on the nature of the industry. Also, only one of the options said that cigars can be exempted, but the other one included cigars.

We can look at this two ways. CASAA took the position that this was the FDA discriminating against e-cig users and rich cigars smokers. I suppose that's one way to see it.

The other possibility is that the FDA recognized that there are a ton of small cigar manufactures, most who import to us, and that the process would be too cumbersome and would destroy the cigar industry in this country.

I know, this is the same situation with e-cigs. Maybe the FDA hates e-cigs and this is all part of a plan. Maybe the FDA just doesn't understand e-cigs. Their proposed rules do not show any kind of method of how to deal with these products or what they entail as a whole. It could be that the FDA is still getting a sense of this and thought that all e-cigs are just little plastic cartridges.

I don't know. A lot of people here will say that my second scenario is absurd and it's just the FDA. If there is any other statement on why they have proposed exempted cigars, but not e-cigs, or just comments on the exemptions in general, I'd love to see them. I'll say this though. I'm a really cynical about politics and government. Despite this, I don't think that every action is some conspiracy. Even if I do think something else is going on, I don't see the point in going on about it or calling out the FDA in your comments. Alerting the public to these things is important, but you probably can't show such things without a long history of abuse.

Apparently the FDA is starting to take a dim view of cigars now too. Cigar may be as bad for your Health as Cigarettes: Study | Maine News Stay tuned to see if they listen to themselves.

 

[Mogar]

Well, people have been vaping since 2007, so we already have seven years of history to fall back on and there are no indications yet of problems. I started in early 2012 and that was one thing that helped sway me in favor of switching from smoking.

Actually the first E-Cig was created by H Gilbert in 1963. The more common type was brought about and started to catch on from Hon Lic in 2003.

 

[thewomenfolk]

Here is the problem as I see it. Just my opinion. For a kid to buy cigarettes is illegal yet that doesnt stop kids from trying cigarettes or smoking. To want the government to make even more laws "to save the children" wont do a thing to stop any child from wanting to try vaping or becoming a vaporer but will open the door for more government control and regulations which we have far too much of already.
I look at this the same way that I look at things like gun control. It doesnt work, its pointless and will do far more harm than good. When you outlaw guns only oulaws will have guns and now you created a large pool of victims who cant defend themselves. Same with vaping. You invite the government in to make all these laws and regulations they are not going to stop there but make tons of stupid laws, tax the hell out of it and kids are still gonna try it and do it just like they do with smoking. Once again you did more harm than good.



The vaping community has done a great job of policing themselves. They are against sales to kids and also done things to make vaping safer for all like identifying juices and ingredients that can be harmful to people and pressured manufacturers to let people know if those ingredients are in their product. Its not a perfect system but far more effective than government control.

I think the only thing that needs Governmental interference is the regulation of ejuices. I know there are a lot of ejuice vendors who take every precaution to make their products safe, but as we know, we don't know who isn't. If there's no regulation, there's no stopping or punishing those who would do like the Tobacco Companies and add poisons to make their products addictive.

 

[The Cloud Minder]

I wish there were an Elephant in my room.

 

[rbrylawski]

I wish there were an Elephant in my room.

Just imagine how much damage that elephant could do in your room[emoji16]


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[Plastic Shaman]

Just imagine how much damage that elephant could do in your room[emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not as much as a tipping island.

 

[Tranquility Base]

A little off topic, but:

Would an island tip on a turtle's back with elephants of equal weight at equidistant intervals?

Just wondering.

 

[ScottP]

I wish there were an Elephant in my room.

These people have a Hippo in their house, jump to about 1:36.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWgB1hyOHWc

 

[Ryedan]

Actually the first E-Cig was created by H Gilbert in 1963.

Yup, but that never went into production.

The more common type was brought about and started to catch on from Hon Lic in 2003.

Correct, but I have no idea how many were sold before 2007 when they started exporting them to the US, or if there were any health issues with those early ones.

 

[towelie]

Am I alone in thinking there already are multiple statutes that regulates vaping for minors? Seriously, no nicotine to minors already exists. Am I wrong?

 

[towelie]

Its so strange how some act like vaping is the most important thing in life to them, lmao, its ridiculous how some of these posts come off.

Its a vape forum ya? I bet bingo enthusiasts come off the same way in a bingo forum you reckon? Naaaa couldn't be.