The Elephant in the Room
- Thread starter Plastic Shaman
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Goes back way further and deeper than just tobacco and nicotine. Take a look into the FDAs militant control over the whole food market, ACTUAL organic Farming and dairy that hasn't been processed to the point of being useless for nutrients and downright detrimental to the health of many individuals.
The chemicals in the foods all over your local grocery store have so many negative health effects it's actually sickening... often deadly. Yet I have a hard time finding dairy products my son can ingest without 40% of his body being covered in hives. It's been deemed a milk allergy yet whole cows milk doesn't affect him at all.
Take a look into gerson therapy, the amazing stories, then dig deeper into where it's administered and why it's not administered in the United states. My aunt was given 6 months to live and found out about gerson therapy through a church group that was deeply into wholistic living. She and her sisters dug deep into learning and following the steps and a few months later they couldn't even locate the cancer any longer.
Let's just say I don't buy pink ribbons any longer.
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I really don't think that regulation is a good or a bad thing. There are some positives. We will have a better idea of what goes into liquid and hopefully some meaningful research and statistics will come about. On the other hand, a lot of small vendors might not be able to make it through the application process. I talked about this in the other thread, but I have no idea how this regulation will apply to every thing that's not the liquid itself. That could be a bad thing, but since the FDA doesn't seem to understand what they are taking on yet or what the regulations that apply to components and parts, there's no way to know. That's all I can really think of with this set of proposed rules. I'm not saying that some rules might not come along that could be devastating. They could.
Your last sentence says it all. Regulations will come. Even if these rules come before the court and the FDA loses, regulation will eventually come. In that situation, Congress would eventually pass something that would allow the FDA to look at these products.
Do you know why regulation will come? Because it's necessary. We may not like it's consequences. There may be corruption in the system. As I've said, the legal system has certain insulators built into it, but these may not be enough. Regardless, Regulation is necessary because we live in a first world country where we have certain safety standards. I know some people don't think they are necessary, but it's really one of those things that defines our society and makes it what it is. Anyone who's spent time in a third world country probably sees this.
People want to know what's in these devices and what effects they have. They want to know they are safe and clean. Obviously, there are people here who think this is necessary and the people on this board only represent a fraction of vapers. I'm not even going to try and guess how much of the rest of the public wants to know what's going on with this stuff. At the end of the day, I think it's unfair for all the people who strongly disagree with regulation to characterize others as believing that the FDA is going to do only good things and nothing will change. Actually, what you're doing is creating a straw man. Most people know that regulation comes with a lot of burdens. Those who are supporting regulation, or even just considering whether they support it, know that there are sometimes concerns outside of how convenient things will be for them.
So, no. I'm not saying that it will be a good thing or that nothing will change. I'm sure things will change. It's all a matter of how much good and bad and how drastic the change and what can be done to mitigate it.
It's called a long standing history, governments that have already set precedents, fda, WHO and Congress showing their true colors and an utterly stupid list of deeming regulations. (unless you're actively trying to give this new industry back to the old industry that knowingly and purposely poisoned it's customers well above and beyond what the base product could have without malicious intent)
It's common sense.
Some are too intelligent to see it.
Some are too involved to see it.
Some are too stupid to see it.
Which are you?
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Here's a shocker; I think regulations are a GREAT thing.
The power has just been bought and abused for far, far too long.
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The FDA did their Houdini thing with people's shipment back in 2009. They've been at this a while and if they don't understand what they are getting into, or understand it, there's something very wrong with them. They lost in court and they're going into this blind?
It's too late at night to argue about this. I can't even think. I'm glad this conversation is going on though.
It's too late at night to argue about this. I can't even think. I'm glad this conversation is going on though.
Every benefit has a cost. Some regulations are better than other, but usually someone is not able to do something that they were once able to do, or their is more difficulty in doing it. Generally, someone is unhappy.
I don't disagree with you. There is a lot of abuse in all facets of government. This is not an issue that is exclusive to vaping or the FDA. If people are really unhappy with abuse and outside influence, they need to look towards the source. I maintain that campaign finance reform would address a good deal of these issues.
You pulled out the food card. Now I'm going to have bad dreams and heart burn. My brother had severe problems with milk too eons ago. The stuff they do to food these days is criminal.
I'm ready to get rich.
Who wants to bet that BT & BP winds up owning the labs and certifying the people who do the testing on any new products when it's all said and done?
In other words they get paid to deny your product so there's doesn't lose market share.... just like the farming industry FDA reigns over...
Addit: And let us not forget the cost of such denial may very well be so high as to make it completely impossible for many to come back for a second chance and/or with a second product.
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Who wants to bet that BT & BP winds up owning the labs and certifying the people who do the testing on any new products when it's all said and done?
In other words they get paid to deny your product so there's doesn't lose market share.... just like the farming industry FDA reigns over...
Addit: And let us not forget the cost of such denial may very well be so high as to make it completely impossible for many to come back for a second chance and/or with a second product.
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I'm glad it is too!
I don't know if the FDA is that clueless, but it might not have looked at all the factors involved though. That's not hard to imagine, every issue has a lot of complexities and I doubt they go into these things with all the knowledge in from of them. Then again, I guess I could be wrong and they have it all figured out.
I don't know if they lost in court in the sense that most people think. Their attempt to regulate one way was clarified, but they can still work on it in other ways. So, I wouldn't say blind.
I am all for proper and appropriate health regulations for vaping. IMO the problem with the changes (regulations) proposed by the FDA is that they will decimate the vape industry and thus vaping and I have no reason to think they will make vaping safer than it is now. That makes for a lousy risk analysis
If the proposals were more in line with what I think would help make vaping safer without severely hindering it, both on the juice and hardware sides, I would feel the best course would be for us to work with the regulators and see what middle ground can be found.
As things stand now I feel fighting to eliminate any regulation completely is the best way to proceed and I will continue to do that. Looking at what has happened so far with vape regulation in Europe, I have no doubt that public health concerns do not matter one iota to governments in this matter.
It will certainly be interesting to see how things play out!
Portion... that's all I'm giving up here.
With corruption already seated at the head of the 3 letter agencies it will be hard to dethrone and over turn decades of favoratism... especially when the little guys who've been pushed out and have honest intentions don't have a leg to stand on against corporate giants in buying power alone.
For example... corporate crops are allowed to be called organic when grown on a farm that merely 10 years ago was still being heavily doused with oil based insecticides and fertilizers. Where is it now? In the soil.
Meanwhile true organic farmers are buying virgin land and going in the hole or barely staying afloat trying to keep the circle of life that is true organics going while being piled under hours of paperwork daily and pay their mortgage.
And these corporations are full of "experts"... and guess who's seated at the aforementioned table of many of the governing bodies? Let's just say the FDA has made it a career of putting them at that table... While they're still collecting a pay check.
Can we say conflict of interest? Cause if we can I'd spell it F.D.A. and/or W.H.O.
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They are certainly not stupid or unprepared. I think it's a complicated political situation though and in no way a certain outcome for them. We just have to keep fighting them the best we can.
This has been one of the more educational threads on this topic I've seen in a while in the general forum. Kudos to you Plastic Shaman for keeping it going and keeping a cool head though it all
They are certainly not stupid or unprepared. I think it's a complicated political situation though and in no way a certain outcome for them. We just have to keep fighting them the best we can.
This has been one of the more educational threads on this topic I've seen in a while in the general forum. Kudos to you Plastic Shaman for keeping it going and keeping a cool head though it all
Thanks! Even though some people got mad, I think that this has been pretty productive.
Not going to disagree at all. Ever since the emergence of super PACs and our political system being dominated with unlimited spending of corporate dollars, most of our regulatory agencies are deeply entrenched in corporate pockets. It's a pretty hopeless situation as I see it. Even if we could convince some politicians to get start to oppose these things, we would now need a constitutional amendment to really change anything, thanks to the Supreme Court. Honestly, I don't know what else can be done.
I suppose it's possible that over the past 5 years the FDA has not learned as much about vaping as a new member can learn in about an hour on this site, not likely, but possible. It is the government after all.
The thing is there will always be minors who take up smoking. Most of us on this forum started smoking or at least experimenting with smoking when we were much younger than 18. When I was that age I thought smoking was cool and at the ripe old age of 46 I still think it is cool. Bad for you yes, but cool nonetheless. I doubt if that will ever change, kids want to try things especially things their parents disapprove of. Do I want my son to become addicted to nicotine? No, I don't. But it will probably happen anyway. Should he want to smoke, no matter how old he is, I for one will definitely encourage him to take up vaping instead. I wish I had that option when I was his age, I could have prevented all the smoke related damage I caused to myself in 29 years of smoking. I think it is the responsible things for a parent to do.
If only the constitution stood for more than toilette paper in today's politics, I'd wholeheartedly agree.
While a true statement, taken in context, my position is its one that's way out in left field. People are constantly dieing because of the FDAs decisions and cherry picking to side with big money. This is not the right cost for a modicum of regulation. And the proposed regulations for e-cigs appear to do the same thing en masse.
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Didn't Jefferson say we should take a look at the Constitution every 20 years or so? Problem I see with it is today's politicians think it's written in stone. So it is stone toilet paper, and that's pretty rough.
Saw Bernie Sanders on Bill Maher the other night. Kept coming back to the point of getting Big Money out of politics, and campaign finance reform.
"Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today." -- old song but truer than ever.
Saw Bernie Sanders on Bill Maher the other night. Kept coming back to the point of getting Big Money out of politics, and campaign finance reform.
"Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today." -- old song but truer than ever.
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