The ethics of "Made in USA" on clones

[LDS714]

Let's consider a case that's fairly well-known to guitarists that happened in 1977 or so.

One of the most iconic electric guitars is the Gibson Les Paul. It's a solid-body guitar with a single cutaway, two pickups, and a distinctive headstock design.

A Japanese company (Ibanez) made a copy of the Les Paul that was every bit as good as (and some say better than) the original. It did not say Gibson on the headstock, it said Ibanez, but it was stylized to resemble the Gibson logo from a distance. The headstock, body and other parts were direct copies of the Gibson original. The guitars were marked with the correct country of origin.

Gibson sued and won. Many containers of these instruments were seized by Customs and destroyed, and Ibanez was forced to stop producing them.

So, ethical or not, cloning or whatever you want to call it is in fact illegal.

 

[bsoplinger]

Let's consider a case that's fairly well-known to guitarists that happened in 1977 or so.

Good write up except for one thing. The guitars weren't destroyed because they were illegal. The manufacturing of them did not break any law. What they did was violate the copyright of the design and the judge ordered the violating products destroyed.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2

 

[LDS714]

Good write up except for one thing. The guitars weren't destroyed because they were illegal. The manufacturing of them did not break any law. What they did was violate the copyright of the design and the judge ordered the violating products destroyed.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2

I recall one of the major points, along with the headstock shape was that from a distance the logo couldn't be differentiated from the authentic Gibsons, but yeah, it was trademark infringement.

FWIW, I have owned two of them and they were the best Les Pauls I've ever played.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Cloning in and of itself is not the issue, it is putting said clones on the market that is the issue. You are free to clone anything and everything in the world so long as you aren't using said clone to profit in some way or another. That brings to question what is profit, I somehow doubt that fasttech is making a profit on free shipping of a product that costs $5.00 if so the profit margin is in the sub pennies range or I'm really out of touch on how much shipping costs these days.

There seems to be a different motivation for selling to the world at such a low margin. I would go ahead and call it an attack on a countries infrastructure if I had a better understanding of the costs involved. In my opinion it seems to have worked, we don't have the same sort of manufacturing capability as China if I understand it correctly, at least on a cost per part capability measure.

I don't like it, plain and simple.

Maurice

 

[LDS714]

Cloning in and of itself is not the issue, it is putting said clones on the market that is the issue. You are free to clone anything and everything in the world so long as you aren't using said clone to profit in some way or another. That brings to question what is profit, I somehow doubt that fasttech is making a profit on free shipping of a product that costs $5.00 if so the profit margin is in the sub pennies range or I'm really out of touch on how much shipping costs these days.

There seems to be a different motivation for selling to the world at such a low margin. I would go ahead and call it an attack on a countries infrastructure if I had a better understanding of the costs involved. In my opinion it seems to have worked, we don't have the same sort of manufacturing capability as China if I understand it correctly, at least on a cost per part capability measure.

I don't like it, plain and simple.

Maurice

Tariffs used to be used to level the playing field. It seems like that's a one-way street these days. For example, China imposes about a 25% tariff on US automobiles imported into China...

In the early 90s tariffs on Chinese goods were, for all practical purposes, abolished. It's been good for Wal-Mart, I guess.

 

[FearTX]

I had a good laugh when reading some of this. I have to admit I skipped to the end. All of these things have been said in one form or another.

buy what you want to afford and be happy with it. Enjoy the journey, I am

 

[MrPlink]

Let's consider a case that's fairly well-known to guitarists that happened in 1977 or so.

One of the most iconic electric guitars is the Gibson Les Paul. It's a solid-body guitar with a single cutaway, two pickups, and a distinctive headstock design.

A Japanese company (Ibanez) made a copy of the Les Paul that was every bit as good as (and some say better than) the original. It did not say Gibson on the headstock, it said Ibanez, but it was stylized to resemble the Gibson logo from a distance. The headstock, body and other parts were direct copies of the Gibson original. The guitars were marked with the correct country of origin.

Gibson sued and won. Many containers of these instruments were seized by Customs and destroyed, and Ibanez was forced to stop producing them.

So, ethical or not, cloning or whatever you want to call it is in fact illegal.

I was waiting for this anecdote to pop up, because regarding clones it is a very good one. But your facts are a little off and you are missing some key info.

- let me preface this with that I used to collect vintage gibsons as well as lawsuit era Japanese clones -

Lawsuit instrument in question was an Ibanez flying V. Didnt conclude until the early 80s. No instruments destroyed.

But here is the interesting part, esp for those of you that are brand name conscious and complain about clones:

starting in the late 60s throughout the 70s and well into the 80s the almighty american brands Gibson and Fender had turned to crap. While the Japanese did offer some cheap look alike models, they also offered many models that not only superseded the offerings of Gibson and Fender at the time, but even rivaled the quality of the golden age instruments of the 1950s.

One of the more long term results of the cheap Japanese guitar invasion is that American manufacturers were forced to offer their own quality imported versions AND step up their own quality.

So over all it brought some healthy competition to the market and ended up being good for just about everyone. It proved there were some trusted manufacturers from overseas and helped give American companies a kick in the pants so they could return to form. Lets not forget to mention to offered consumers many more options at better prices and higher quality

 

[Grrrr]

There were a lot of Japanese guitar makers making very good Les Paul copies, Burny, Greco and Tokai to name 3, the Fujigen plant put out a lot of high quality guitars, no weight relieving, long neck tenon joints etc I own a few guitars and my Tokai "Love Rock" is my favorite. Both Fender and Gibson had guitars made by the Japanese guitar makers, the Japanese Epiphone Les Paul were arguably better than their US made Gibson equivalents.

 

[LDS714]

Lawsuit instrument in question was an Ibanez flying V. Didnt conclude until the early 80s. No instruments destroyed.

I don't doubt that the V was very close. IIRC, the primary basis for the suit was the headstock on the Les Pauls and ES- models. The suit actually settled out of court, and yes, there actually were containers full of instruments destroyed. I may have been incorrect about Customs doing it, but it was part of the settlement.

 

[LDS714]

There were a lot of Japanese guitar makers making very good Les Paul copies, Burny, Greco and Tokai to name 3, the Fujigen plant put out a lot of high quality guitars, no weight relieving, long neck tenon joints etc I own a few guitars and my Tokai "Love Rock" is my favorite. Both Fender and Gibson had guitars made by the Japanese guitar makers, the Japanese Epiphone Les Paul were arguably better than their US made Gibson equivalents.

Yeah, I have some Japanese Fender basses that are outstanding.

 

[Grrrr]

I don't doubt that the V was very close. IIRC, the primary basis for the suit was the headstock on the Les Pauls and ES- models. The suit actually settled out of court, and yes, there actually were containers full of instruments destroyed. I may have been incorrect about Customs doing it, but it was part of the settlement.

If memory serves me, it was the open book headstock that was the problem....but I could be wrong.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[weinner]

This thread is also full of great entertainment. It's like high-school up in the ECF these days.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Tariffs used to be used to level the playing field. It seems like that's a one-way street these days. For example, China imposes about a 25% tariff on US automobiles imported into China...

In the early 90s tariffs on Chinese goods were, for all practical purposes, abolished. It's been good for Wal-Mart, I guess.

It's been good for EVERYONE who likes to buy things. Why should I have to pay a higher cost superimposed on me by someone NOT involved in the transaction? It's not my responsibility to make sure a factory worker in Ohio gets my money instead of a factory worker in China. My job is to make the best decisions possible for the financial health of my family. Paying more, oftentimes substantially more, for a product to insure that an American made it is not in the best financial interest of my family.

Import tariffs are manipulation of the market that is a direct cost to consumers. Everyone wins but the consumer.

 

[K_Tech]

Doesn't bother me any more (or any less) than the USA flags at WalMart that are made in China.

And not pointing at anyone in particular, because it's a major cultural difference between the USA and China. This is a gross generalization, and it's much more complex, but the Chinese are brought up to understand that everything belongs to everybody. They don't have an ethical issue with counterfeiting someone else's product because it's everyone's product. You don't make things for yourself, you make things for the good of the State.

It's difficult to wrap your head around. I won't say it's right or wrong, it just is.

 

[LDS714]

It's been good for EVERYONE who likes to buy things. Why should I have to pay a higher cost superimposed on me by someone NOT involved in the transaction? It's not my responsibility to make sure a factory worker in Ohio gets my money instead of a factory worker in China. My job is to make the best decisions possible for the financial health of my family. Paying more, oftentimes substantially more, for a product to insure that an American made it is not in the best financial interest of my family.

Import tariffs are manipulation of the market that is a direct cost to consumers. Everyone wins but the consumer.

And in the case of China not importing American made stuff because of the tariffs? Everyone doesn't win, China wins - they sell domestic vehicles. The only dollars flowing back to us are as loans, so we can buy more of their stuff.

 

[Rossum]

the Chinese are brought up to understand that everything belongs to everybody. They don't have an ethical issue with counterfeiting someone else's product because it's everyone's product. You don't make things for yourself, you make things for the good of the State.

You haven't been to China in a while, have you? Today's China is not the China Nixon visited.

 

[weinner]

Doesn't bother me any more (or any less) than the USA flags at WalMart that are made in China.

And not pointing at anyone in particular, because it's a major cultural difference between the USA and China. This is a gross generalization, and it's much more complex, but the Chinese are brought up to understand that everything belongs to everybody. They don't have an ethical issue with counterfeiting someone else's product because it's everyone's product. You don't make things for yourself, you make things for the good of the State.

It's difficult to wrap your head around. I won't say it's right or wrong, it just is.

"it just is" probably the most intelligent statement in this thread.

 

[MrPlink]

There were a lot of Japanese guitar makers making very good Les Paul copies, Burny, Greco and Tokai to name 3, the Fujigen plant put out a lot of high quality guitars, no weight relieving, long neck tenon joints etc I own a few guitars and my Tokai "Love Rock" is my favorite. Both Fender and Gibson had guitars made by the Japanese guitar makers, the Japanese Epiphone Les Paul were arguably better than their US made Gibson equivalents.

I have an Ls80 LoveRock that is hands down my favorite guitar. I got it
Even over my vintage Gibsons. Have a couple Grecos still. No Burny. A quality example has been hard to find.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

And in the case of China not importing American made stuff because of the tariffs? Everyone doesn't win, China wins - they sell domestic vehicles. The only dollars flowing back to us are as loans, so we can buy more of their stuff.

I can't help that they have protectionist policies for their manufacturers. That doesn't make it right for us to have protectionist policies or ours.

That kind of system is modernized Mercantilism. It doesn't work, and the only thing is does is screw consumers.

 

[Rossum]

That kind of system is modernized Mercantilism.

Yep, modernized mercantilism is a pretty apt description of what the Chinese are engaged in.