The nicotine content of your old brand vs your carts.

[Burnt-Toast]

EDIT - This first post is being updated and new information is being added as I go along. I will update this post with summary information towards the bottom once I get some more information together, but for now you can use the links for some interesting reading! /EDIT

Stumbled across this interesting tidbit on the net. At this site you can lookup the nicotine, tar, and carbon monoxide content of your previous brand and type of cigarette:

Click on the letter your old brand started with towards the top of the page:

Erowid Tobacco Vault : Info on Nicotine Content of Cigarette Brands

A more up to date, but not electronic version:
"Tar, Nicotine, and Carbon Monoxide of the Smoke of 1,294 Varieties of Domestic Cigarettes For the Year 1998"

These only apply to cigarettes made / sold in the USA. Sorry everyone else, I don't have a good list for outside of the US

Nicotine content in E-cig liquid:
If my reading is correct, the nicotine content as measured for the bottles of juice is mg / ml.

So 1 ml of "8 mg" strength would contain 8 mg of nicotine if I'm not mistaken. A whole 5ml bottle would contain 40mg of nicotine. A 30ml bottle would contain 240mg of nicotine.

In General:
1 drop of liquid ~ .05 ml
20 drops of juice ~ 1 ml
1 cartomizer ~ 20 drops ~ 1 ml

This means that if you are using 8mg strength liquid; a cartomizer (with 20 drops of liquid in it) should contain 8mg of nicotine.

Source for volume estimation (thanks lonercom!):
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...pty-carto-capacity-questions.html#post1202712

Safety Warning!: 40–60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans. (or a little less than 0.25-0.5 mg/lb). A full 30ml bottle of 8mg strength juice is enough to kill a 240 - 480lb human! A 1ml dose (one cart worth) of 11mg strength is enough to kill a 40lb child! USE GLOVES AND PROTECTION WHEN HANDLING JUICE AND KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN!

Amount of Nicotine in your Analogs:
Now you want to figure out how much nicotine you were PREVIOUSLY using by visiting the link I posted above. For example I will use Marlboro Reds, Hardpack, Filter cigarettes which are listed there as:

[SIZE=3]
Brand        Size:     Filtered:   Packaging:    Tar:   Nic:   CO:
MARLBORO     KING      F           HP           16mg   1.1mg   14mg
[/SIZE]

If my personal smoking habit was a (20) pack of these; my daily consumption would then be:

[SIZE=3]
Brand        Size:     Filtered:   Packaging:    Tar:   Nic:   CO:
MARLBORO     KING      F           HP           320mg   22mg   280mg
[/SIZE]

If you want to get a real rough calculation of how much nicotine you are consuming and skip past all of the "unknowns" you may want to scroll to the end of this post. There is a lot of data and research blurbs below which may not really explain much to many people but is being included here for completeness' sake.


Nicotine Availability Rate in Vapor:

HERE IS THE CATCH:
E-juice is measured by how much nicotine was in the liquid, not the vapor.
Cigarettes are measured by how much is in the smoke, not the leaf.

I Found 3 different absorption rates:
10% from a study of Ruyan E-Cigs:http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

Another user quoted DVAP as having stated 40% (however from his own blog):

E-cigs deliver the nicotine (with thanks to Exogenesis for his excellent research.. he's far outdone my original research)

Exogenisis stating ~91-98% through tests done with some rather impressive equipment:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...otine-destroyed-during-vaping.html#post779018

Factors Affecting Nicotine Absorption In Cigarettes:
Base Nicotine Absorption Rate for Cigarettes:

About 80 to 90% of inhaled nicotine is absorbed during smoking as assessed using 14C-nicotine.

Source: Armitage AK, Dollery CT, George CF, Houseman TH, Lewis PJ, and Turner DM (1975) Absorption and metabolism of nicotine from cigarettes. Br Med J 4: 313-316.

Factors Affecting Nicotine Absorbtion from Vaping:
From the Ruyan Test linked above:

Nicotine absorption site The nicotine dose and
particle size are too small to ensure deposition in
the alveoli or bronchioles and rapid nicotine
absorption as in cigarette smoking.

Source: http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

Summary: The nicotine particles in vaping are much smaller than with analogs (also no tar to bind to) which does not ensure that they will "stick" in your lungs in order to be absorbed into the body. One thing to note however is that nicotine is readily absorbed through skin, eye, mouth, throat, and really any other tissue it comes into contact with (hence how snuff and snus works). This is another variable which is hard to quantify.

Metabolization rate of Nicotine

The plasma half-life of nicotine after intravenous infusion or cigarette smoking averages about 2 h

Based on a half-life of 2 h for nicotine, one would predict accumulation over 6 to 8 h (3 to 4 half-lives) of regular smoking and persistence of significant levels for 6 to 8 h after cessation of smoking. If a smoker smokes until bedtime, significant levels should persist all night.

Thus, nicotine is not a drug to which smokers are exposed intermittently and which is eliminated rapidly from the body. To the contrary, smoking represents a multiple dosing situation with considerable accumulation while smoking and persistent levels for 24 h of each day.

After 4 days of smoking abstinence, nicotine clearance was increased by 14% (Benowitz and Jacob, 2000), and after 7 days of abstinence, nicotine clearance was 36% higher (Lee et al., 1987) when compared with overnight abstinence from cigarettes.

These studies suggest that there are substance(s) in tobacco smoke, as yet unidentified, that inhibit the metabolism of nicotine.

Source: Metabolism and Disposition Kinetics of Nicotine ? Pharmacological Reviews

Summary: There are components in cigarette smoke which cause your body to hold onto the nicotine for longer periods of time than a non-smoker would. Here is an image showing a 24 hour time window:

Source: Metabolism and Disposition Kinetics of Nicotine ? Pharmacological Reviews

This is pretty self explanatory if not just a bit confusing if you are uninitiated to the terminology they are using. However, in a nut shell, analogs have some other chemicals which slow the metabolization process:

Numerous chemical agents, including gamma-heptalactone, gamma-valerolactone, gamma-decalactone, delta-decalactone, gamma-dodecalactone, delta-undecalactone, and gamma-hexalactone, are mild to weak inhibitors of coumarin-7-hydroxylases (also known as CYP2A5 and CYP2A6; these are enzymes within the P450 enzyme system that metabolize compounds in the body).32 These 7 chemicals are among those found on the additives list. Because CYP2A6 is involved in the metabolism of nicotine, the presence of these chemicals could decrease smokers’ metabolism of nicotine and maintain higher blood levels (thus increasing smokers’ exposure to nicotine by slowing degradation of nicotine in the bloodstream). Furthermore, the inhibitory effect of these chemicals on CYP2A6, although relatively weak in isolation, might be greater when the chemicals act in combination."

Source: Pharmacological and Chemical Effects of Cigarette Additives

Summary: Tobacco smoke contains chemicals which slows your body's ability to metabolize nicotine. This means that on average you will be holding onto a higher amount of nicotine in your blood in between cigarettes than you would be while vaping. I have not been able to determine the rate of change overall yet. But this and DVAP's blog entry (and other's research) indicates there may be other things in cigarettes your body is likely to crave.

Here is another pretty little graph for Nicotine retention in various forms of tobacco use:

Source: "Smoke: a global history of smoking (2004)" edited by Sander L. Gilman and Zhou Xun ISBN 1-86189-200-4, p. 319

Mentholated cigarette smoking did significantly inhibit the metabolism of nicotine (clearance: 1289 versus 1431 ml/min, two sided, p = 0.02). Inhibition of nicotine metabolism occurred both by slower oxidative metabolism to cotinine and by slower glucuronide conjugation.

Source:Mentholated Cigarette Smoking Inhibits Nicotine Metabolism ? JPET

When this is calculated out comes to about a %10 reduction in the metabolism rate for nicotine in menthol smokers.

An implication of the high degree of hepatic extraction is that clearance of nicotine should be dependent upon liver blood flow. Thus, physiological events, such as meals, posture, exercise, or drugs perturbing hepatic blood flow, are predicted to affect the rate of nicotine metabolism.
...
Hepatic blood flow increases about 30% and nicotine clearance increases about 40% after a meal.

Source: Metabolism and Disposition Kinetics of Nicotine ? Pharmacological Reviews

Ever wonder why you craved a cigarette after a good meal? It's because your body started getting rid of the nicotine 40% faster

General assessment of Nicotine consumption needs:
NOTE - This section is the one which will be most heavily modified as more information becomes available:

I use my PV's on the train, in the office, at home, in the car, etc. I have been using 8mg carts as I use my VK constantly and wanted to avoid over doing it on the nicotine. I go through 3 carts in a day roughly at the moment and I used to smoke about a pack a day.

(8mg cart) * (3 carts / day) = 24mg / day (amount of nicotine in the liquid)

While smoking I was getting ~ 22mg / day (amount of nicotine in the smoke)

And every day I avoid putting 320mg of Tar and 280mg of CO in my body!

If you like the sensation more akin to smoking a cigarette (heavier throat hit) or want to save money (e.g. only using the vaporizer about once every 45 minutes - 2 hours or whatever) then you will probably want to go with a higher mg nicotine rating. 18-24 seems to be a sweet spot for a lot of people. Just pay attention to how much time you have to sit around and toke on your PV.

 

[Skyler]

If I'm calculating correctly this means that I am vaping 3 times the amount of nic than I was with ultra light cigs. This is a major wake up call for me.

 

[Burnt-Toast]

That is also assuming that every last drop gets vaporized. Most of the time your cart will have some left-over juice in it. If you just pitch the cart when it's "dry" you could probably remove .05 ml or so of the liquid for each cart (totally un-scientific calculation).

At least you aren't consuming the rest of the nasties from smoking. If you can lower your nic content without switching back to analogs; in my opinion it's worth it! If (like me) you enjoy vaping too much to cut back on usage then get some 0-4mg juice or carts and use those until you get an actual craving!

I'm very open to this information being corrected if more information becomes available! If anyone has good figures or corrections please let me know!

 

[v1John]

If I'm calculating correctly this means that I am vaping 3 times the amount of nic than I was with ultra light cigs. This is a major wake up call for me.

It is. Using the OPs case with Marlboro Ult-lights. as an example, the OP would need to make a single 8mg strength cart last him a full 24 hour day, since Marloboro U-lights have as little as .3 mg of nicotine (assuming the cart has 20 drops and they're all used up).

Interesting link, Burnt-toast. It's feels so good not to be dripping about 100mg of Tar and 100mg of CO in each of my carts, as well as what, hundreds of carcinogens?

 

[Kevor]

Wow!! I always knew there was tar and CO in analogs, but this really opens your eyes at just how much you take into your body with analogs..

I used to smoke one pack of Marlboro Reds a day.. I'm now using 11mg carts and juice, and i use 1 1/2 to 2 carts a day.. So i think i'm not taking in that much more nic.. But geez, the amount of those other nasty things that are not going into my body is just priceless..

 

[Idaho Ron]

Im getting a lot more now & wont go back. I love vaping & feel better so there must be a lot more then nic in an anolog.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Higher bioavailability. Many many many threads on the topic - here and in the health section of ECF. Hard to swing a dead cat without hitting one or two.

 

[Garblesnarf]

Marloboro U-lights have as little as .3 mg of nicotine

Bwahahahaha!


My Djarum had an average of 2.49mg each!

So I'm at 18 in liquid... That's 7.23 Smokes... That's maybe one or two more sticks worth than I smoked a day.

 

[Burnt-Toast]

Found some more information about why we vape more too:

Numerous chemical agents, including gamma-heptalactone, gamma-valerolactone, gamma-decalactone, delta-decalactone, gamma-dodecalactone, delta-undecalactone, and gamma-hexalactone, are mild to weak inhibitors of coumarin-7-hydroxylases (also known as CYP2A5 and CYP2A6; these are enzymes within the P450 enzyme system that metabolize compounds in the body).32 These 7 chemicals are among those found on the additives list. Because CYP2A6 is involved in the metabolism of nicotine, the presence of these chemicals could decrease smokers’ metabolism of nicotine and maintain higher blood levels (thus increasing smokers’ exposure to nicotine by slowing degradation of nicotine in the bloodstream). Furthermore, the inhibitory effect of these chemicals on CYP2A6, although relatively weak in isolation, might be greater when the chemicals act in combination."

Source: Pharmacological and Chemical Effects of Cigarette Additives

Your body can metabolize the nicotine with vaping at a more normal rate since it is lacking in all of the chemical additives in cigarettes meant to keep you buzzin longer.

This might be why some people can't quit analogs so easily and switch to vaping. They would experience more than just a simple drop in nicotine content calculated by the amount in the vapor/smoke to begin with!

Still digging for more info...

 

[Kimmy]

Great post!!

 

[Gamer]

I did the calculation but my math was a bit different.

When i smoked i smoked about 9-10cigs a day that was equal to 9-10 people i didn't have to kill that day.

When i recalculated with how much nic i was getting i found i was vaping the equal of 15-17 cigs a day. This is a GREAT improvement seeing as now it evens out to 15-17 people that i wont have to kill each day!

I love math

 

[maxx]

The only study I am aware of, other than Dr. E. flawed one (near zero nicotine), is the New Zealand one. In that one, an e-cig was compared to a marlboro red and showed that e-cig vapor delivers only one-tenth of the nicotine that a real cig does. This would explain why people vape more than they smoked.

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

Even if the study is off on it's numbers a bit....puff for puff....e-cigs and analogs are not comparable. But that's not a bad thing, since by vaping you are lowering your dependence on nic and when and if you decide to drop it completely....you won't be in for shock. Instead of jumping from the roof of a 10-story building....you get to jump from the first or second floor window.

 

[Burnt-Toast]

The only study I am aware of, other than Dr. E. flawed one (near zero nicotine), is the New Zealand one. In that one, an e-cig was compared to a marlboro red and showed that e-cig vapor delivers only one-tenth of the nicotine that a real cig does. This would explain why people vape more than they smoked.

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

Even if the study is off on it's numbers a bit....puff for puff....e-cigs and analogs are not comparable. But that's not a bad thing, since by vaping you are lowering your dependence on nic and when and if you decide to drop it completely....you won't be in for shock. Instead of jumping from the roof of a 10-story building....you get to jump from the first or second floor window.

Your assessment is correct and the article helpful in another way!:

Nicotine delivery per puff A 35 mL puff from
the Ruyan® V8 delivers only 10% of the nicotine
obtained from a similar puff of a Marlboro regular
cigarette. Deeper 50 mL puffs from the Ruyan V8
delivers only slightly more nicotine.

And the cause:

Nicotine absorption site The nicotine dose and
particle size are too small to ensure deposition in
the alveoli or bronchioles and rapid nicotine
absorption as in cigarette smoking.

My next question (since scientific tests don't seem to be available) is whether anyone has used both the VK and Ruyan units with the same nic juice and could shed some light on the vapor delivery differences!

I'm thinking of building a web-calculator which takes into account all of the different variables to (sudo)scientifically determine a good starting nicotine strength for new users based on their smoking habits and the differences between e-cigs and analogs. (Ancedotal evidence from people here + information from these various sources should be adequate enough to get a rough gauge working...)

Of course, this will be followed by a flavor recommendation lottery machine based on peoples eating habits. (Can you tell this is for fun?)

Even if the calculator doesn't come to fruition the knowledge learned along the way is priceless!

Thanks!

 

[jeffree]

Interesting thread! I think it's an important topic and one that I wonder about. But am I the only one who leaves such threads as confused as ever?

I sure don't feel like I'm taking in more nic than when I smoked. I understand that the lack of other chems could account for that, but I did feel my nic level spike whenever I chewed that nasty nic gum. Vaping doesn't do that to me, at least not as noticeably, even if I vape more heavily from time to time. Well, I do appreciate the info. everyone and look forward to future updates. Keep 'em coming.

 

[lonercom]

OK,

Not enough fingers an toes for this one, don't tell the Nuns that I'm using a calculator.

Doral Menthol Light is .9mg each
3 Packs per day is 60 Cigs

60 X.9 = 54MG per day

According to DVAP (Blogger here on ECF) 40% absorption rate means 2.5 times daily cigarette intake would be... 135MG E-Juice

I go through 6 Cartos a day so... I need 22.5mg Cartos

From Maxx's Post:
10% Absorptoion rate means I need 540MG e-juice per day or 90MG Cartos.

1st order was 24s. Didn't think it was enough so I went to 36s. Too strong, back to 24s then 18s and now 8s.

I'm actually hoping to get to 0s in the next few weeks.

 

[Burnt-Toast]

OK,

Not enough fingers an toes for this one, don't tell the Nuns that I'm using a calculator.

Doral Menthol Light is .9mg each
3 Packs per day is 60 Cigs

60 X.9 = 54MG per day

According to DVAP (Blogger here on ECF) 40% absorption rate means 2.5 times daily cigarette intake would be... 135MG E-Juice

I go through 6 Cartos a day so... I need 22.5mg Cartos

From Maxx's Post:
10% Absorptoion rate means I need 540MG e-juice per day or 90MG Cartos.

1st order was 24s. Didn't think it was enough so I went to 36s. Too strong, back to 24s then 18s and now 8s.

I'm actually hoping to get to 0s in the next few weeks.

I'm personally switching between 4s and 8s now and I started with 8s and 18s (11 wasn't available at the time). I do think that this thing is weaning me off nicotine on it's own...

So it looks like (non-scientifically) %40 absorbtion rate was about right for calculating roughly how many cartos and what strength was right for you?

I personally think %10 absorbtion rate is wrong since I would have to consume a whole cartomizer @ 8mg in order to get 1 smoke's worth of nicotine out of it. I have tried ripping through a cart as fast as possible, only to get a nic buzz after a little bit and stop. In my opinion %40 is closer. I would be interested to hear where other people ended up initially (remember this is only really useful for beginners as your nicotine needs will change with your habits and lifestyle).


Thanks for the input!

 

[pianoguy]

OK,

Not enough fingers an toes for this one, don't tell the Nuns that I'm using a calculator.

Doral Menthol Light is .9mg each
3 Packs per day is 60 Cigs

60 X.9 = 54MG per day

According to DVAP (Blogger here on ECF) 40% absorption rate means 2.5 times daily cigarette intake would be... 135MG E-Juice

I go through 6 Cartos a day so... I need 22.5mg Cartos

From Maxx's Post:
10% Absorptoion rate means I need 540MG e-juice per day or 90MG Cartos.

1st order was 24s. Didn't think it was enough so I went to 36s. Too strong, back to 24s then 18s and now 8s.

I'm actually hoping to get to 0s in the next few weeks.

I had found DVAP's calculations the day after I made my initial order, and quickly placed another order for 24's (up from the 11's and 8's I had originally ordered). Those did the trick for me - I don't know it it was because the calculations are correct, or if just gave me enough psychological ammo. I now use anywhere from 6 to 12mg liquid. I have a stash of 24mg cartos that I am trying to use up slowly, and they make me loopy now - LMAO!

 

[Burnt-Toast]

I had found DVAP's calculations the day after I made my initial order, and quickly placed another order for 24's (up from the 11's and 8's I had originally ordered). Those did the trick for me - I don't know it it was because the calculations are correct, or if just gave me enough psychological ammo. I now use anywhere from 6 to 12mg liquid. I have a stash of 24mg cartos that I am trying to use up slowly, and they make me loopy now - LMAO!

Actually, it appears as though DVAP is relegating the more correct figures to the research done by Exogenesis (link up on first post now).

I think what I am finding is that because of the lack of the additional chemicals in vaping, which are used by cigarette manufacturers, the nicotine is being metabolized faster in our systems which makes us feel like something is "missing" or leaving "gaps" when we start vaping at the same "dose" as we were consuming with analogs (stronger for some than others). There is good evidence to support a "secondary" or "supplemental" addiction in cigarettes other than just the nicotine.

It seems that many people I have seen in here start a little higher than necessary (or suppliment with snus or analogs) until they no longer want them and most seem to either drop their strength or at the very least drop the supplement after a period of time as their bodies get used to the difference in delivery mechanics.

However, the more responses I get here the more correct the estimation logic in the calculator will be, and the more informed our members will be.


Still digging .... and thanks for the input!

 

[Burnt-Toast]

I have revamped the first post quite considerably, though it now reads a little differently than when I started.

I'm currently looking around to try and get some estimates or number relating to the "impact" boost analogs get from the extra chemicals in them and I'm also trying to get hard numbers on the ml / cartomizer (which my guesstimate of about 1ml seems to be relatively close)

If anyone else (even ancedotally) can provide their previous brand's nic content along with what strength was over their limit when you started it would be helpful!

Thanks,

From trying to pry this info out of the FDA / GOV'T websites I'm starting to feel a bit like this:

 

[pianoguy]

I neglected to mention I smoked Marlboro Mediums (I have seen them listed at both .6 and .8mg per cig), roughly 20-25 per day.