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The Palestinian & Israel Conflict

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blondeambition3

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Well raise my rent! I did not know that. I know that they also believe that Jesus and satan are brothers and there is a heavenly mother as well as a heavenly father as there can be no son unless there is a mother. :ohmy:

LOL.. That's right Saintscruiser, and we are all brothers & sisters to Lucifer (Satan) also!
 

Southern Gent

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This will be my last point on the subject as well and yes, leave it for people to decide. I do want to cover what the apostle Paul, the Hebrew of Hebrews says concerning the matter.

So..Let us take a brief walk through Ephesians, one of Paul’s most beloved epistles. Let us see if Paul’s outlook is compatible with dispensationalism.

We will work our way through Paul’s letter in the order he presents it, rather than in any sort of theological order. As we read along, you may become surprised at how clearly Ephesians conflicts with this beloved system.

(1) Christ is presently ruling in his kingdom
Dispensationalism teaches that Christ is not presently enthroned as king. His enthronement awaits the future establishment of his kingdom during the millennium. But in Ephesians 1 Paul teaches that Christ was already established as the king and enthroned in the first century. His statement shows that Christ is not now awaiting his future kingly reign.
In Ephesians 1:20–23 Paul declares:
“He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
Note the following complicating problems that arise from this statement.
First, we see quite clearly that Jesus in fact has already been seated at God’s right hand in heaven. This being “seated” (note the past tense) at “God’s right hand” obviously speaks of his being seated at God’s throne in heaven. After all, Jesus himself declares elsewhere that he “sat down with My Father on his throne” (cf. Mark 16:19; Acts 7:56; Heb 8:1; 1 Pet 3:22).
In fact, when he was being tried by the rulers of Israel they asked him if he was the Christ. He chastised them for not believing him in this regard (Luke 22:66–78). He then warned them that he was soon to be seated with God in heaven: “But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God” (Luke 22:69). No postponement theory here: in the very context of Israel’s formal, official, and final rejection of him he declared that he would be “seated at the right hand of the power of God” despite their rejection.
Second, we further learn that his throne is in heaven and not on the earth. This contradicts a fundamental of dispensationalism’s premillennial scheme. The Messianic throne is not a literal throne on earth, it is a spiritual reality in heaven. Thus, his reign does not involve political and bureaucratic rule. Rather it is a spiritual-redemptive reality. The earthly kingship of Christ is absolutely denied by Paul.
Third, this enthronement in Ephesians gives Christ authority “far above all rule and authority and power and dominion.” Indeed, God “put all things in subjection under His feet.” This is as high an authority as is possible. What would be the point of his coming to the earth to rule in a literal millennium? He is the ruler of all things now. Why would he come to rule inJerusalem in a millennium? Why would he leave his heavenly throne where he rules universally to return to his earthly footstool to rule locally (Isa 66:1; Matt 5:35; Acts 7:49)?
Fourth, in fact, Paul says that Christ’s rule continues “not only in this age [right now!], but also in the one to come.” If dispensationalists claim that Christ is not now ruling, then what is Paul talking about? Paul sees Christ’s current function at the right hand of God as not only present now, but as continuing into the future age which lies beyond the present age. Put in the best possible light for dispensationalism, they should argue that his kingship takes a new form in the millennium. But their peculiar system construct will not allow this. In their view, Christ’s kingdom was presented, rejected, and postponed. He is not now in any way reigning as king.
Fifth, this kingly rule of Christ is related “to the church.” And this church is “His body.” But the church is the very redemptive-historical institution that dispensationalism distinguishes from Israel — and therefore from the millennial kingdom. In fact, in their dispensational structuring of history (“rightly dividing the word of truth”), the present age is the Church Age, which is to be followed by (and distinguished) from the Kingdom Age (the millennium).

(2) We are presently ruling with Christ
Dispensationalism teaches that Christ’s future literal rule from a literal throne will include our reigning with him But since his kingdom is not now present, then obviously we are not now reigning with Christ. But Ephesians contradicts such an interpretation.
In Ephesians 2:4–6 we read: “God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:4–6).

And where had Paul just stated that Christ was seated? According to Ephesians 1:20–21 God “raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion.” He is at God’s right hand ruling over all. According to the plain-and-simple method of literal interpretation our enthronement must wait until after the second coming of Christ at the Rapture. Why does Paul here speak in the past tense by using the aorist verbal forms of “raised” and “seated?” Why does he teach that Christians in the first century are already enthroned with Christ, that is, that they are already ruling and reigning with him in his kingdom?
And Paul is not alone in this: Peter calls first-century Christians a “royal priesthood” (1 Pet 2:9), i.e., a kingdom of priests. And even John, does the same — long before he speaks of the millennium (which occurs in only one chapter in all of the Bible, which happens also to be its most difficult book) and our reigning with Christ as kings and priest (Rev 20:6). John states in the past tense: “He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father” (Rev 1:6).
To seal the matter, Paul even mentions the celebration of Christ’s enthronement in Ephesians 4. He speaks of his enthronement in terms reflecting a formal Roman triumph where the conquering ruler returns to his capital and divides the spoil with his jubilant citizens. In Ephesians 4:8 Paul states regarding the heavenly-enthroned Christ: “When He ascended on high, / He led captive a host of captives, / And He gave gifts to men.”

(3) The Jew and Gentile are forever merged into one body in the final phase of God’s redemptive plan.
We must note two aspects of the matter that come undermine the system. In dispensationalism’s two-peoples-of-God theology they must hold that God (1) distinguishes Jew and Gentile and (2) that he does so permanently (at least in history, though many carry the distinction into eternity). How are these observations fatal to the system? And in light of our study in Ephesians, how do we see that problem in Paul’s epistle?
Paul notes very clearly and forcefully that God merges Jew and Gentile into one body, which we now call the church. He even encourages the Gentiles with the knowledge that they are now included among God’s people and are partakers of their blessings. They are not separate and distinct from Israel but are adopted into her.
Note Ephesians 2:11–19: “Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called ‘Uncircumcision’ by the so-called ‘Circumcision,’ which is performed in the flesh by human hands — remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household.”

Note very carefully what Paul states and how it contradicts the notion of a distinction between Jew and Gentile, between Israel and the church:

1. Paul states that the Gentiles were “formerly . . . at that time . . . excluded from the commonwealth of Israel” (Eph 2:12). This is an observation about their past condition.

2. He argues that the Gentiles were “formerly . . . at that time . . . strangers to the covenants of promise” (plural covenants / singular promise). This is an observation about their past condition.
3. He reiterates the Gentiles’ former condition that has now been changed: “But now in Christ you who formerly were far off have been brought near” (Eph 2:19). This is their new experience and condition.

4. He resolutely declares that Christ has effected “peace” in that he “made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall” (Eph 2:14). This is their new experience and condition.

5. He restates this once again by noting that Christ made “the two into one new man, thus establishing peace” (Eph 2:15). This is their new experience and condition.

6. He recasts this very thought noting that Christ determined to “reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.” This is their new experience and condition.

7. He continues by insisting that Christ “came and preached peace to you [Gentiles] who were far away” (Eph 2:17). This is their new experience and condition.

8. He states still again that “through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father” (Eph 2:18). This is their new experience and condition.

9. He declares this fact once again: “So then you are no longer strangers and aliens” (Eph 2:19). This is their new experience and condition.

10. He insists: “but you are fellow citizens with the saints [obviously the Jews], and are of God’s [singular] household” (Eph 2:19). This is their new experience and condition.

11. Paul states once again that the Gentiles are a part of “the [singular] whole building, being fitted together” and “are being built together” (Eph 2:21). This is their new experience and condition.

Dispensationalism distinguishes Jew and Gentile permanently. Paul merges the two into one new body permanently.


(4) Paul sees Gentiles as receiving Jewish promises.
In our last comment we noted that Paul saw Jew and Gentile merged — permanently — in one body, the church (Eph 2:11–19). Now we would note that in the early part of that text he teaches that this new, merged body — the church — receives the Old Testament promises given to Israel.
Consider Paul’s statement to these Gentile Christians: “remember that you were at that time [before your conversion] separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (Eph 2:12).

What is happening here? Paul is speaking of matters involving “the commonwealth of Israel.” He is declaring that before these Gentiles came to Christ they were “strangers to the covenants of promise.” This necessarily means that now that they have come to Christ they are no longer strangers to the covenants of promise. Thus, they are now recipients of “the covenants of promise,” which include the distinctive Abrahamic Covenant with Israel (Gal 3:16–18). After all, he goes on to say that though they were “a that time” (Eph 2:12) excluded and strangers they now “have been brought near by the blood of Christ” (Eph 2:13) and that Christ “broke down the barrier of the dividing wall” that separated Jew and Gentile (Eph 2:14). Thus, if Gentiles are no longer “excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,” if Gentiles are no longer “strangers to the covenants of promise,” if Gentiles “have been brought near,” if Jew and Gentile are merged into one body , and if that which distinguishes Jew and Gentile has been “broken down” (the “dividing wall”), then by parity of reasoning: the Gentiles receive the promises given to Israel. How can it be otherwise? The two are now one, so that the promises to the old covenant people belong to the new covenant people who have been merged with them.

(5) The rebuilt temple is the Church of Jesus Christ.
Paul is provides a spiritual interpretation of the promise of a rebuilt temple. In Ephesians 2:19–22 he states:
“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”

The Apostle certainly believes in a rebuilt temple, but not one built of stone. He sees “the whole building”as currently in his day already “being fitted together” and “growing into a holy temple in the Lord.”He allows this despite the fact that the earthly temple is still standing as he writes. And despite the fact that the millennium still lies off in the distance (already almost 2000 years distant, at least). To make matters worse, Paul sees the rebuilt temple in spiritual terms because it is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” with “Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone.” And the current and ongoing building process involves Christians themselves as the building stones for “you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”
This is why Jesus could inform the Samaritan woman: “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father. . . But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers” (John 4:21, 23). And Jesus presents this “coming” hour as a permanent, final reality not to be withdrawn as a new order of localized, physical temple worship is re-instituted.
This is no stray statement by Paul: he returns to this theme time-and-again. We read of his conception of the spiritual temple in the following verses:
“Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.” (1 Cor 3:16–17)

“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?” (1 Cor 6:19)

“What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, ‘I will Dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people’” (2 Cor 6:16).

The third sample in 2 Corinthians 6:16 is important because it specially applies Old Testament prophecy to the New Testament spiritual temple. Notice how Paul argues: “We are the temple of the living; just as God said, ‘I will Dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.’” The Old Testament backdrop to this “just as God said” statement is Ezekiel 37:27: “My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

What is remarkable about all of this is that this Paul takes this statement from Ezekiel’s prophecy of Israel’s dry bones coming back to life. Thus, Paul commits two hermeneutic sins: (1) he applies a prophecy regarding Israel to the church and (2) he spiritualizes God’s prophetic dwelling, applying it to God’s spiritual indwelling his people, rather than God’s building a new temple.

(6) The mystery of the Church was revealed in the Old Testament
once again, Paul contradicts this dispensational view, as we see when we look closely at one of the very verses used to support the system.
Ephesians 3:1–10 reads as follows:
“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles — if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.”

Paul certainly states that “by revelation there was made known to me the mystery.” We are clearly dealing with a biblical mystery, and one that was especially revealed to Paul. But notice what he actually says:

1. Paul states that “in other generations [it] was not made known to the sons of men” (Eph 3:5a). By “sons of men” Paul is referring broadly of all men, especially those outside of Israel, the Gentiles. He uses the phrase that often appears in the Old Testament to refer to men generically, the wider human race.

David uses this phrase in Psalm 14:2 in speaking of the fool who says there is no God and who works wickedness in order to “eat up my people” (Psa 14:4). We see this generic usage also in Psalm 21:10; 31:19; etc. Indeed, the psalmist declares that “the Lord looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men” (Psa 33:19; cp. 53:2; Jer 32:19). Even when he uses the term inclusively as including Israel, it is because Israel is a part of the whole human race. Ecclesiastes frequently employs the phrase generically (Eccl 1:13; 2:3; 3:10, 18–19; 8:11; 9:3, 12). Daniel 2:38 agrees.

Thus, Paul is teaching that the human race outside of Israel as such did not know the blessings God had in store for them. Paul has been commissioned to take this news to them: “of which I was made a minister’ according to the gift of God’s grace” (Eph 3:7). We must remember that he was appointed as the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 1:5; 11:13; Gal 2:8; Eph 3:5–6; 1 Tim 2:7).

2. Paul continues by adding: “as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit” (Eph 3:5b). The word “as” is a comparative. That is, this revelation was not revealed during the Old Testament era to the degree that it is now revealed in the New Testament. He is comparing the revelation of the mystery in the Old Testament to its fuller revelation in the New Testament. Thus, the earlier revelation was not to the same degree as that which “has now been revealed to his Holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit.” We must not overlook the comparative.

3. In fact, we know he is speaking comparatively, not only because of he uses the word “as,” but because of what he states at the end of Romans. In Romans 16:25–27 we read:
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”

Note that in this passage he clearly declares that this mystery “now is manifested,” but then immediately adds: “and by the Scriptures of the prophets.” Here he speaks of the Old Testament Scripture for he opens Romans by a similar expression. At Romans 1:2 he speaks of the promise “beforehand through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures” (Rom 1:2), which definitely refers to the Old Testament Scriptures. Indeed, all through Romans he refers to the Old Testament as “the Scripture” (Rom 4:3; 9:17; 10:11; 11:2; 15:4), just as he does elsewhere (1 Cor 15:3–4; Gal 3:8, 22; 4:30; 1 Tim 5:18).

Thus, this “mystery” is a revelation of God that cannot be accessed by man’s unaided wisdom. But it appeared before in the Old Testament Scriptures, though it is now made more central and clear in the New Testament. In fact, Paul even adds in Romans 16:26b that this “has been made known to all the nations.” So then, this mystery is no longer confined to Israel in her covenantal Scriptures, but is now being proclaimed to all the nations.
 

blondeambition3

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Hosea 3:5 states: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. - I take scripture both 'spiritually' and literally to mean exactly what GOD said.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith I, by faith, declare that Israel belongs to GOD and His chosen People, the Jews. Like unpopular Noah, I stand on this (Word), this ground, by faith.
 

dspin

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Hosea 3:5 states: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. - I take scripture both 'spiritually' and literally to mean exactly what GOD said.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith I, by faith, declare that Israel belongs to GOD and His chosen People, the Jews. Like unpopular Noah, I stand on this (Word), this ground, by faith.


Well said and also - beware false prophets that come in sheeps clothing
 

dspin

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It has all changed Kelly. There is no place of worship (temple) there is no Levite priesthood, there is no trace of lineage. All of these were destroyed in 70 AD at the hands of Rome just as Jesus said they would. The Israel of today (1948) is a creation of man. If you were to make a garden and call it "heaven" would it really be heaven? Most importantly--Is the Israel of today God's chosen people? They rejected His Son...so the answer is no. The people that dwell in the "country" of Israel have the same opportunity to accept Christ as Savior. Otherwise they are no different from anyone else. God is not a respecter of person. To say that this man made nation has any more grace or special salvation apart from anyone else makes God to be something other than Himself. The cross was once for all and that includes everyone.
Remember God gave them land but it was always conditional. When they rejected God, He took away their land. Egypt--Babylon--Syria--Rome...all put the Jewish nation under bondage. They were the first offered into the kingdom of God and rejected it. God through Rome pronounced final judgment against their system.


Anyone who wants to know about lineage - Revelation chapter 7 144,000 sealed jews from the 12 tribes - the tribes are named
Judah, Reuben, Aser, Nephthalilm, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Isachar, Zabulon, Benjamin - There is ALWAYS lineage w/jewish people, Christ lived here as a jew. They are God's chosen people, don't forget that
 

Saintscruiser

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Hosea 3:5 states: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. - I take scripture both 'spiritually' and literally to mean exactly what GOD said.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith I, by faith, declare that Israel belongs to GOD and His chosen People, the Jews. Like unpopular Noah, I stand on this (Word), this ground, by faith.

Count me in too!!!!! Glory to God! Preach it Sister!!!!! Praise the Lord and hear His voice! His mercies endureth forever! Hallelujah!
 

Southern Gent

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Christ did not preach a temporary “truce” between Jew and Gentile, but a permanent “peace.” He did not suspend the enmity between Jew and Gentile for awhile but “put to death the enmity.” He did not bring the two peoples together for a time (nor even for a time, times, and half a time) but he permanently created a new man. Dispensationalism’s theology requires that ultimately we must separate what God has joined together. It allows the rebuilding of the dividing wall. I don’t know how badly a system must miss the mark before its adherents admit their mistake and leave it behind. It has been said that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. Dispensationalism is a farce resigned to confusion. At this point, you are arguing scripture with the apostle Paul, who makes it clear what the truth is. Slinging scripture out of context and some innuendo of name calling does not change anything. What it does mean is that you are capable of misusing scripture and innuendo at the same time. It however does not change nor contradict anything the apostle Paul said in Ephesians. If you are still having trouble escaping dispensationalism, you really need to rapture out of the system.
 

blondeambition3

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Christ did not preach a temporary “truce” between Jew and Gentile, but a permanent “peace.” He did not suspend the enmity between Jew and Gentile for awhile but “put to death the enmity.” He did not bring the two peoples together for a time (nor even for a time, times, and half a time) but he permanently created a new man. Dispensationalism’s theology requires that ultimately we must separate what God has joined together. It allows the rebuilding of the dividing wall. I don’t know how badly a system must miss the mark before its adherents admit their mistake and leave it behind. It has been said that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. Dispensationalism is a farce resigned to confusion. At this point, you are arguing scripture with the apostle Paul, who makes it clear what the truth is. Slinging scripture out of context and some innuendo of name calling does not change anything. What it does mean is that you are capable of misusing scripture and innuendo at the same time. It however does not change nor contradict anything the apostle Paul said in Ephesians. If you are still having trouble escaping dispensationalism, you really need to rapture out of the system.

The 'People' (Reformationists') claiming that Israel belongs to the Palestinians is 'practicing' Dispensationalism. Just because I 'believe' Israel deserves to have a physical State again, based on the Scripture GOD himself imparted to me is not being mean, hateful or intolerant. You are a believer and are preaching Reformation theology, whereby the CHURCH is the New Israel and the 'body of Christ' is the new Jew (grafted in via the true vine) You, Southern Gent, dear Sir are misusing and misquoting scripture and I've 'read' what Paul said and 'got' exactly what he meant. I believe 'History' is proving out the Bible (Israel did miraculously against all odds, proving to me GOD's sovereign design, become a nation in 1948 and I don't have to argue the case anymore. Reformationists love to quote Paul's Ephesians but overlook Romans. Have you read Romans 9,10, and especially 11:1:36?. Reformationists like to skip these.

The Remnant of Israel
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [8] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”


also:

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [11] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [12] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen
.

Based on these scriptures I think it's 'safer' to error on the side of dispensationalism than that of reformation and I'll give you the biggest and most valid reason because I KNOW this first hand. The Muslim Palestinian Arabs do not worship the true Yahweh God, because ALLAH is NOT Yahweh. There are thousands of Christian Arabs who reside peacefully in Israel with the Jews right now.. the Jews honor them and are more than happy to share the Land with any and all who wish them no harm... but that is not the case with the Palestinians.. so I don't know what else to say.. GOD has done away with much of the 'physical' by 'grace' .. but HE is NOT done with the Jew or Israel and I can't wait until I'm raptured out of this theological mess that the religious Pharisees have wrought.. just as they did in Christ's day which 'led' to His very crucifixion, so yes, I'll stand on God's word and NO MAN or Churches theology ever and you can insult me all you want and talk down to me.. that's OK... Christ is with me, He will NEVER leave me nor forsake me, so you can say and do what you will.. but I will stand by the Nation and remnant of Israel forever... or until GOD tells me to do differently.
 

blondeambition3

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OH yeah! Forgot to include this one! Romans 9:1-27:

God's Sovereign Choice

9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, (Physical remnant, not spiritual remnant!) 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
 
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blondeambition3

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For inquiring minds who perhaps don't know: Dispensationalism is a system of prophetic theology.

In short dispensationalists are those who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture of the church.



Reformationists - In short believe Israel (as a physical country & people) no longer important in this New testament age... the 'reformed' church is the new Israel

In closing I will add: God made UNCONDITIONAL promises to Abraham concerning the PHYSICAL/not Spiritual nation of Israel and his physical descendants. "Unconditional" means there were no "conditions" included which could annul, or cancel, the covenant promises made. In the same declaration God also made unconditional promises to Abraham concerning his Seed, Jesus Christ. Both the national promises to Israel and the spiritual salvation promises through Christ were unconditional. From Genesis 12, 13, 15 and 17 it is clear that both sets of promise have equal validity. These were foundational promises about which God would not change His mind. So whether you want to admit it or not SG.. I can.. we're BOTH right.... however, 'my' thinking is one of Peace and yours would only promote annihilation of the Jew, and that my Dear Brother is the reason Zion-ism is warranted in these latter days.
 

Saintscruiser

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Amein, Blonde! Israel is the Bride of God, and I am not going to argue about this fact.

SG, I love you, dude. You know I do, but this one I cannot overlook. I love your sense of humor! I am sorry that I'm not sorry about standing up for what I believe is truth. That would be going against my very nature. But yeah, I am a Zionist and happy about being one. I'm cool with that. That land was baren until the Jews have made it a lush, green, self sufficient nation. I am shocked at the Vatican to take this stance against the Jewish nation. I really mean shocked.:shock: But then, look at Mel Gibson and his tirades against the Jewish people.

SG, if you have a prayer request or want to joke about chicken, I'm there, but I can't support you on this, because I have to answer to God about it. As unpopular as this makes me, so be it. Shalom.
 

lopster

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Well raise my rent! I did not know that. I know that they also believe that Jesus and satan are brothers and there is a heavenly mother as well as a heavenly father as there can be no son unless there is a mother. :ohmy:

I grew up in my later kid years in salt lake as a Mormon. If they think they have a mother and a father it is news to me. I have never heard that one before. I do know there is a whole lot of myths out there about Mormons. AM I the all knowledgeable one about Mormons? No way! But I will say I have never heard this one before. Just saying. :2c:
They do believe in three tiers of heaven. That struck me as quite odd growing up. Lol.
 

CartHeadMod

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Hosea 3:5 states: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. - I take scripture both 'spiritually' and literally to mean exactly what GOD said.

fulfilled when the Israelites were brought back from captivity and rebuilt Jerusalem in the book of Nehemiah?
 

CartHeadMod

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The 'People' (Reformationists') claiming that Israel belongs to the Palestinians is 'practicing' Dispensationalism. Just because I 'believe' Israel deserves to have a physical State again, based on the Scripture GOD himself imparted to me is not being mean, hateful or intolerant. You are a believer and are preaching Reformation theology, whereby the CHURCH is the New Israel and the 'body of Christ' is the new Jew (grafted in via the true vine) You, Southern Gent, dear Sir are misusing and misquoting scripture and I've 'read' what Paul said and 'got' exactly what he meant. I believe 'History' is proving out the Bible (Israel did miraculously against all odds, proving to me GOD's sovereign design, become a nation in 1948 and I don't have to argue the case anymore. Reformationists love to quote Paul's Ephesians but overlook Romans. Have you read Romans 9,10, and especially 11:1:36?. Reformationists like to skip these.

The Remnant of Israel
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [8] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”


also:

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [11] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [12] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen
.

Based on these scriptures I think it's 'safer' to error on the side of dispensationalism than that of reformation and I'll give you the biggest and most valid reason because I KNOW this first hand. The Muslim Palestinian Arabs do not worship the true Yahweh God, because ALLAH is NOT Yahweh. There are thousands of Christian Arabs who reside peacefully in Israel with the Jews right now.. the Jews honor them and are more than happy to share the Land with any and all who wish them no harm... but that is not the case with the Palestinians.. so I don't know what else to say.. GOD has done away with much of the 'physical' by 'grace' .. but HE is NOT done with the Jew or Israel and I can't wait until I'm raptured out of this theological mess that the religious Pharisees have wrought.. just as they did in Christ's day which 'led' to His very crucifixion, so yes, I'll stand on God's word and NO MAN or Churches theology ever and you can insult me all you want and talk down to me.. that's OK... Christ is with me, He will NEVER leave me nor forsake me, so you can say and do what you will.. but I will stand by the Nation and remnant of Israel forever... or until GOD tells me to do differently.

what's a "refomationist"?
 

CartHeadMod

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For inquiring minds who perhaps don't know: Dispensationalism is a system of prophetic theology.

In short dispensationalists are those who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture of the church.



Reformationists - In short believe Israel (as a physical country & people) no longer important in this New testament age... the 'reformed' church is the new Israel

In closing I will add: God made UNCONDITIONAL promises to Abraham concerning the PHYSICAL/not Spiritual nation of Israel and his physical descendants. "Unconditional" means there were no "conditions" included which could annul, or cancel, the covenant promises made. In the same declaration God also made unconditional promises to Abraham concerning his Seed, Jesus Christ. Both the national promises to Israel and the spiritual salvation promises through Christ were unconditional. From Genesis 12, 13, 15 and 17 it is clear that both sets of promise have equal validity. These were foundational promises about which God would not change His mind. So whether you want to admit it or not SG.. I can.. we're BOTH right.... however, 'my' thinking is one of Peace and yours would only promote annihilation of the Jew, and that my Dear Brother is the reason Zion-ism is warranted in these latter days.

lets be honest....those that think there will be a pre tribulation rapture are some of the Baptists, those that think there will be a post tribulation rapture are most of the rest of the Baptists and those that think Israel is no longer important to the second coming are the rest of Christianity.........
 
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blondeambition3

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lets be honest....those that think there will be a pre tribulation rapture are some of the Baptists, those that think there will be a post tribulation rapture are most of the rest of the Baptists and those that think Israel is no longer important to the second coming are the rest of Christianity.........

I grew up in the Apostolic/Pentecostal Faith... never been a Baptist... (lol)

You're being honest but I believe it's even a little more 'complicated' and split than that.. (lol)

It's not funny I know, The 'body' of Christ is in a thousand 'fractures' right now because of theological and denominational differences... but I still love ALL of the Brethren.

God will finish the work He's begun not 'because' of any of us but in spite of most of us.. (lol) I've been called to be 'light, salt and love' to a lost & dying World. (lol) I HOPE Christ comes tomorrow, but I'll work as if he's not coming for another thousand years..
 
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