The Really Big RY4 Roundup (long)

[Lombaowski]

Gonna bust out the Butterfly's RY4 this weekend.

It smells JUST LIKE Hangsen I noticed, we'll see how it tastes. Got my 125ml bottle of Mr vape RY4 yesterday, it's now it good hands as I will take good care of that bottle.

 

[billherbst]

Impressive. Sounds like a tough undertaking. Lets see, need some caramel, vanilla, and tobacco.. only about a thousand options for each flavor. Kind of an advanced DIYer undertaking, I'm sure 99% of possible combos turn out just ok at best.. before even considering other possible enhancements.

Yeah, Jerms, solving the puzzle of which caramel goes with which vanilla goes with which tobacco is a big challenge on its own. From just the standard flavoring companies that people use for DIY--Capella, FlavourArt, TPA, FlavorWest, Nature'sFlavors, Hangsen, and numerous other Chinese flavoring sources, such as those sold by HealthCabin, EcigExpress, and VapingZone---we've got what? 40 different caramels, 60 different vanillas, and 200 separate synthetic tobaccos at least. 40 x 60 x 200 makes for a ridiculous number of possible permutations. I'll be at least half of the combinations probably wouldn't be wonderful together. And that doesn't factor in the custom flavoring companies that most end users don't know about or have access to.

Of course, a typical DIYer won't have all those different flavorings. People who have only one or two of each are likely to be disappointed. In my own flavorings stash, though, I've got 15 different vanillas, 10 different caramels, and 99 synthetic tobaccos.

Of course, making it read like a purely mathematical problem is misleading and false. In the real world, one failed experiment can teach quite a bit and substantially help to weed out many other similarly bad combinations. Still, even for someone with a refined sense of flavor elements, the solution is not as easy as one might think. I discovered that first-hand (not that I have an especially refined flavor sensibility, but you know what I mean...).

After all that, we have to deal with the next problem---recipe proportions---and the possibilities are algebraically jacked up again for creating DIY RY4s that run the gamut from just meh to plain awful. And, as you note, that's before even considering other enhancements.

juice vendors are often criticized for making and/or selling juices that aren't stellar, but just imagine all the failures that never even make it to the shelves. What surprises me is not that so many not-so-great retail juices exist, but that so many really great ones do.

 

[billherbst]

Gonna bust out the Butterfly's RY4 this weekend.

It smells JUST LIKE Hangsen I noticed, we'll see how it tastes. Got my 125ml bottle of Mr Vape RY4 yesterday, it's now in good hands as I will take good care of that bottle.

Thing is, juice-making vendors very rarely reveal the ingredients for their supposedly proprietary retail RY4s. For all we know, Butterfly's could be using Hangsen Essence pre-mixed RY4 flavoring, either in whole or in part, to make their RY4.

With the increasing number of very good pre-mixed, all-in-one RY4 flavorings now available---Hangsen Essence RY4, FlavourArt RY4, TPA/TFA RY4 Double (and Asian)---I'd wager that some, if not many, of the RY4s on The Big List are not made from scratch but are either tweaked hybrids or simply re-labeled RY4s made from those flavorings. For instance, both Yaeliq and VapeRite sell RY4s named Double RY4 and Asian RY4. Might those be made from the TPA/TFA all-in-one RY4 flavorings of suspiciously similar names???

I assume that actual clones, near-clones, and partial clones of all the popular flavor blends (i.e., apple pie, vanilla custard, RY4, etc.) are common throughout the retail marketplace. Imitation may or may not be the sincerest form of flattery, but replication is certainly the most common route in pursuit of success.

 

[Lombaowski]

Thing is, juice-making vendors very rarely reveal the ingredients for their supposedly proprietary retail RY4s. For all we know, Butterfly's could be using Hangsen Essence pre-mixed RY4 flavoring, either in whole or in part, to make their RY4.

With the increasing number of very good pre-mixed, all-in-one RY4 flavorings now available---Hangsen Essence RY4, FlavourArt RY4, TPA/TFA RY4 Double (and Asian)---I'd wager that some, if not many, of the RY4s on The Big List are not made from scratch but are either tweaked hybrids or simply re-labeled RY4s made from those flavorings. For instance, both Yaeliq and VapeRite sell RY4s named Double RY4 and Asian RY4. Might those be made from the TPA/TFA all-in-one RY4 flavorings of suspiciously similar names???

I assume that actual clones, near-clones, and partial clones of all the popular flavor blends (i.e., apple pie, vanilla custard, RY4, etc.) are common throughout the retail marketplace. Imitation may or may not be the sincerest form of flattery, but replication is certainly the most common route in pursuit of success.

I've turned all the guys that work for me into vapers and they always have juice questions for me. One of the guys has even advanced well behind me with rebuildables, a Provari and a pretty good grasp of flavors from different vendors. He tried the Vapor's Knoll RY4 on my suggestion so he came back and asked me how different the RY4s are from place to place. He said he had tried the Vape Dojo's SamuRY4 (as have I), and didn't like it (I didn't either).

So he asked me what I thought was the "standard" in Ry4s and I brought him in some Hangsen. Not sure if I'm 100% correct, but I told him that Hangsen is kind of a good starting point for any vendor trying to create a great RY4. It's simple, balanced and all three flavors represent an equal part in the vaping. I think I'll bring some of the ITS and Mr Vape in for him to try next week so he can get a few more examples of the profile.

I have a good childhood friend of mine who owns Panama Vapor in Florida, and he doesn't even have an RY4. I told him he should get some DIY Hangsen RY4 and try to come up with his own version based on that. To me it's a great starting point but also I think the original is just great, even if it's somewhat simple. Moreover Myfreedomsmokes RY4, which I wrote a short review on here, is Hangsen-like but they seemed to have added something that knocks it down a few notches.

I just left the 50ml bottle (about halfway gone) of Hangsen at work with all these people vaping, I'm constantly giving them coffee, fruit and tobacco juices I don't care for. I don't easily offer up my favorite RY4s though, but Hangsen to me gives someone not familiar with the blend a chance to see what it should be like. I like quite a few RY4s more than Hangsen, but every time I load up a tank with it I find I vape it until it's gone. It's good stuff.

 

[billherbst]

Lomba,

Don't take this as gospel, but I'm pretty sure that Vaper's Knoll OuR-Y4 uses as some or all of its base flavor FlavourArt RY4 all-in-one flavoring.

One of the owners of Vaper'sKnoll mentioned FlavourArt RY4 flavoring in an email about VK OuR-Y4 to passerbyeus (who shared the email with me). He didn't come right out and state that FA was the flavoring used, but he implied that it was part of the formula for OuR-Y4. My own taste buds affirm that Vaper'sKnoll OuR-Y4 and FlavourArt RY4 DIY flavoring share a very similar flavor profile.

Passerbyeus has been upset about it ever since getting the email, and I think he still may be down on Vaper's Knoll for presumably using a pre-mixed, all-in-one RY4 flavoring to produce a retail RY4. My take is that it's done all the time, so no big deal. To me, Vapor'sKnoll OuR-Y4 is a darn good American-made classic RY4, no matter what's in it.

I was thinking about that when I wrote my post this afternoon.

 

[Lombaowski]

Well I don't have a real reference point on FA RY-4 unless that is the same thing MFS uses to make their own version of RY4. I think the only Ry4 that I have tried that is very similar to OuR-Y4 is Mr Vape RY4, and maybe ECblend to some degree. vapor's Knoll has one of the best vapor producing RY4s though, I'm actually having some now since you mentioned it.

Seems to me as a relative newcomer to vaping, that for vendors the end goal is to produce terrific juice (or it should be). It is an evolving marketplace that in its essence is about replication to improve on the last thing that was best. From mods, to rebuildables, to pyrex tanks there is a lot of borrowing of ideas. Not sure why anyone would get upset if vendors are using certain recipes and methods they got elsewhere, there seems to be a lot of room in the current market for everyone.

Vapor's Knoll is out local here and they have a really nice variety of good juices. I even thought their menthol flavors were good and I don't care for menthol, so I think there is a good deal of craftmanship there. They make everything to order while you wait and they seem to have a pretty good operation, with some knowledgeable staff.

Vape Dojo our other local is the opposite to me, but the guys I work with like their stuff just fine. I think the juices are candy-like, chemical tasting or just poorly crafted. But the two times I've been in there the place was packed, so people obviously don't mind their wares.

 

[MFToms59]

Bill, back in late May or June I believe, you had posted the percentages you added of each flavor, Tobacco, Vanilla & Carmel, in your DIY RY's, do you still follow that guide or have they been tweaked?

 

[billherbst]

Bill, back in late May or June I believe, you had posted the percentages you added of each flavor, Tobacco, Vanilla & Carmel, in your DIY RY's, do you still follow that guide or have they been tweaked?

MF,

I haven't made any DIY RY4s since back then, so nothing's changed.

 

[Randy C]

Yes, but besides MOV, do you know if ANY vendor is testing their caramel flavorings? I think many vendors, including MOV, test the "risky" flavors, but I don't know if any test all of them. I bet it's much more common for vendors to trust the flavoring companies that claim a flavoring is diacetyl free than actually test them. If it was common practice for vendors to send their caramel flavors in for further testing I would say shame on MOV for not doing it. That's not the case though. What this means now, is MOV is actually one of the few companies that we can trust the future orders will contain caramel that is diacetyl free.

I understand wanting to shame them for selling a product that indeed may have contained diacetyl even though they have a strict diacetyl free policy, I actually did that earlier in a post in the NT thread before looking into it further. But now I see that at the most they share the same blame as every other vendor who hasn't tested their caramel flavorings, which may just be all of them.

You know.... you make some very good points Jerms! I wasn't trying to "shame" MOV, I think what bothered me about this whole thing was their earlier claims of being diacetyl free. But I guess you're right.... I don't think anyone could have seen this coming; I didn't. Who would have guessed caramel???

I think what's important from this point on, is that we challenge "diacetyl free" claims more than we ever have in the past. My greatest concern is- if the industry can't regulate itself, especially with product safety claims, it will be regulated for us.

You know....This is what I like about this place. I love that we can disagree, argue our points, even become heated at times... but when good folks (like you) argue their points with dignity and treat each other with respect; this healthy debate often opens the door to learning.

 

[Jerms]

I think what's important from this point on, is that we challenge "diacetyl free" claims more than we ever have in the past.

That's exactly the conclusion I came to. My first reaction was good for MOV to come clean but how could they screw up so badly in the first place? Then I started seeing the whole diacetyl issue is more complex and harder to tackle than I realised. If I had a small juice company, I would have made sure the companies I bought flavorings from sold me diacetyl free products so I could say on my website that what I'm selling is diacetyl free. But then learning that the flavoring companies may be wrong, I would remove that claim from my website, but could I afford to have each individual flavoring further tested? If I can't, is it my responsibility to close up shop to not risk any possible micro levels of diacetyl in my product? Tough situation.

So now the most I can assume is each vendor with a diacetyl free claim is that it's the case as far as they know, unless I find out for sure that they tested every single flavoring. That's a sad situation, and brings up other questions.. Am I really at risk from possible exposure to micro levels of diacetyl? Has anyone's health actually been effected yet? Is this an issue the FDA is going attack and use as leverage? Is the issue blown out of proportion or is it even worse than expected?

I personally haven't been concerned about my own health with vaping, and still don't feel worried about myself after finding out that I may have been inhaling diacetyl in what's suppose to be free of it, nor have I been worried about the occasional diacetyl substitue I've chosen to inhale which may turn out just as bad. But I am worried about the industry as a whole and the many others who are legitimately concerned about the risk.

Anyways, I've probably dragged this on way to long in this thread lol, so back to the regularly scheduled RY4 program.

 

[billherbst]

That's exactly the conclusion I came to. My first reaction was good for MOV to come clean but how could they screw up so badly in the first place? Then I started seeing the whole diacetyl issue is more complex and harder to tackle than I realised. If I had a small juice company, I would have made sure the companies I bought flavorings from sold me diacetyl free products so I could say on my website that what I'm selling is diacetyl free. But then learning that the flavoring companies may be wrong, I would remove that claim from my website, but could I afford to have each individual flavoring further tested? If I can't, is it my responsibility to close up shop to not risk any possible micro levels of diacetyl in my product? Tough situation.

So now the most I can assume is each vendor with a diacetyl free claim is that it's the case as far as they know, unless I find out for sure that they tested every single flavoring. That's a sad situation, and brings up other questions.. Am I really at risk from possible exposure to micro levels of diacetyl? Has anyone's health actually been effected yet? Is this an issue the FDA is going attack and use as leverage? Is the issue blown out of proportion or is it even worse than expected?

I personally haven't been concerned about my own health with vaping, and still don't feel worried about myself after finding out that I may have been inhaling diacetyl in what's suppose to be free of it, nor have I been worried about the occasional diacetyl substitue I've chosen to inhale which may turn out just as bad. But I am worried about the industry as a whole and the many others who are legitimately concerned about the risk.

Jerms,

You've written much of what I would have. Thanks.

The one difference in your stance and mine---or perhaps half-difference---is that my personal health is a concern for me. My "lung recovery" when I started vaping and quit smoking after 40 years was stunning and wonderful. No more coughing and wheezing. No more hacking up the accumulated brown crud of tars from my lungs. After six months of vaping and not smoking, my internist was very impressed with how clear my lungs were when he listened with his stethoscope during my twice-yearly visits. I was thrilled, and---in that one particular dimension of respiratory health, at least---semi-consciously assumed that I had dodged the smoking bullet and was home free.

Then last year I noticed that sometimes---not always or consistently, but sometimes---when I'd take a mouthful of vaper into my lungs (I never do direct lung hits), I'd cough a little. Over time, the coughing remained---sporadic, occasional, but still enough to get my attention. I presumed the culprit to be either too much nicotine or the particulates in NETs. So, I cut back on nicotine from the 24mg I'd used since I started in late 2010 to a more modest 12-18mg. That has alleviated the sporadic cough somewhat, but not totally. I didn't give up NETs (heaven forbid, but I've adjusted my vaping style to take smaller mouthfuls of vapor, and that works to keep the coughing at a minimum.

The diacetyl issue worries me because it's an additional risk on top of whatever is causing my coughing. No, I haven't yet given up buttery/creamy/custard/caramel juices and flavorings, mainly because those flavors provide me with so much pleasure, and pleasure is the primary reason I vape. I'm sufficiently concerned at this point, however, to at least consider cutting out those juices and flavorings from my vaping.

I accept that to some extent, vapers ourselves are the guinea pigs here, that we're conducting a mass social experiment to find safer alternatives to smoking. I understand also that no individual guarantees of harmlessness can be expected. And finally, I acknowledge that I am personally as obsessed with vaping as I was with smoking. I've just shifted my obsession to what I hope will be a safer alternative.

The problem, as I see it, is trust. We have ample evidence in this culture that many businesses and even entire industries and institutions think nothing of lying their heads off to keep hidden real and serious risks to consumers. That's not to suggest that all businesses do this, but the problem of who to trust remains. At this point, I trust MOV and TPA/TFA, but I don't trust Capella, FlavourArt, LorAnn, FlavorWest, Nature'sFlavors (or most other flavoring companies) as far as I can throw them. That blanket mistrust may be unwarranted, but I have no way of distinguishing which of those companies are truthful and trustworthy versus those that are simply covering their butts.

Apparently, diacetyl doesn't have to be an actual ingredient to end up in a juice. Diacetyl substitutes---Acetoin and the like---may recombine to produce diacetyl (as MOV discovered). And who can say for surre that Acetoin and other substitutes are harmless for inhalation?

I assume that the next year and beyond will offer at least some clarification of these vexing issues. Meanwhile, I don't like being at risk, although I can't say with certainty that I have a plan to minimize that risk.

 

[Lombaowski]

Well I've been vaping Butterfly's RY4 for a day and a half now, and had some thoughts on it. Last night I compared Vapor Knoll's RY4 with Mr Vape's RY4, so I didn't want to compare another RY4 to Mr Vape. So I went back and looked at Bill's review of Butterfly's, and he said the same thing!!!! So maybe I'm starting to "get it."

Anyway I think those three have similar flavor profiles, classic and well balanced for sure. With the Mr Vape RY4 IMO, the caramel stands out and that's why I think I like that juice just a tad better than VN OuR-Y4 and this one. However with Butterfly's, I think the tobacco stands out and it is just wonderful. Good vapor production, smooth flavor and I think tobacco lovers would really appreciate this one more than most other RY4s I've tried.

So that is the 6th one I have ordered based on the recommendations of this thread. Hangsen, Vapor's Knoll, ECblend Spicy RY4, Butterfly's, ITCVapes, and Mr Vape. I like Mr Vape best out of the group, and ITCVapes the least, but these have all been enjoyable and worth the money I spent. Need to figure out what my next RY4 will be, but I'm pretty well-stocked with great RY4s thanks to Bill and the rest of you.

 

[Jerms]

Meanwhile, I don't like being at risk, although I can't say with certainty that I have a plan to minimize that risk.

I enjoyed your entire post Bill, especially this comment. I think many vapers can relate, we know there's risks, but not knowing the extent of those risks makes it hard to choose actions to minimize it, especially since we really enjoy these actions that comes with risks. As former smokers, we participated in an action that the risks are much more well known and proven, and even then it was a struggle to minimize that risk, that huge obvious risk, because that meant quitting smoking.

I am concerned about my health, moreso than I'm concerned about anybody elses (I'm not married and no children, I get to be selfish lol). I just don't personally feel at risk.. I do know there's possible risks but I don't feel concerned on a gut level. Partly because I have no physical signs that I should be; if I started getting a cough or other respiritory issues that would change. Other reasons the concern isn't there is probably head-in-sand denial, blind optimism, and that I just really enjoy vaping. Emotional reasons to decide health decisions.. not the smart way to go about it, but a very human way to go about it.

 

[Lombaowski]

How do you think RY4 compares to other brands?

By "brands" do you mean flavors or RY4s from vendor to vendor?

 

[Byebyeanalogs73]

I love mister e liquid ry4. The first time i tried it, I thought it was interesting. Then I thought I didn't like it. Until I ran out. Now I never run out. It's my staple vape. I just hadn't seen anyone mention it, but I didn't read all 500 something pages of the thread.

 

[billherbst]

I love mister e liquid ry4. The first time i tried it, I thought it was interesting. Then I thought I didn't like it. Until I ran out. Now I never run out. It's my staple vape. I just hadn't seen anyone mention it, but I didn't read all 500 something pages of the thread.

I reviewed Mister-E-Liquid MrE's RY4 way back in October 2012, and it's been on The Big RY4 List since then. Here's the review: post #3125

(I do wish more people understood that finding something in this or any thread on ECF doesn't require reading the entire thread. That's what the Search Thread function is for---it's on the right side of the gray bar immediately above the first post on every page.)

 

[billherbst]

specs: The 30ml bottle of Dulcis I purchased from Bloog contains a very pale pink-gold transparent liquid at 18mg nic strength in an unspecified base blend. From the viscosity and vapor production, I’d guess it to be 80/20 or perhaps 70/30 PG/VG. The liquid had no scent that I could discern. Testing was done by dripping into a 2.3 ohm standard JoyeTech atomizer powered by a VAMO set to 9 watts RMS.

VaporTalk Dulcis is one of the oldest and best-loved not-quite-Classic Custom RY4s in the marketplace. Now Bloog, which had previously marketed only Chinese-manufactured eliquids under its own label, has introduced a new Made-in-USA line of eliquids that they’re calling Viquids, with lots of ad copy about pharmaceutical purity, certification, only US-sourced ingredients, and US manufacture. A lot number and expiration date are printed on the bottle (not on the label, but on the bottle itself).

Well, wouldn’t you know it, one of those juices in the new Viquid line is a juice that Bloog has named Dulcis, same as VaporTalk’s RY4. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, what does that make outright stealing of a product name? If Wisk came out with a new line of laundry detergent called Tide, they’d get slapped with a cease-and-desist order for trademark infringement so fast it’d make your head swim. I guess the eliquid marketplace works differently.

Bloog’s Chinese-manufactured RY4 was one of my favorites two years ago. I couldn’t distinguish it from SmokelessImage Volt RY4 and felt that both were right up there with the best Classic RY4s available. Then something happened. A second bottle of Bloog RY4 I purchased in June of 2013 seemed different and not as good. Either the tobacco flavoring had changed or the interaction of the primary ingredients was producing a different flavor. Whatever the reason, I didn’t like the overall taste nearly as much as my first bottle. Bloog RY4 dropped from an A to a B+ in The Big RY4 Report Card. When Bloog offered a $5 off promo recently for the new Viquid line, I decided to see how they’d do with a Custom RY4.

The description of Dulcis on the Bloog product page reads:

“Bloog Dulcis Viquid is our sweet yet subtle caramel flavor giving a complex tobacco flavor. Great for RY4 lovers.”​

Hey, a fairly reserved description that’s not too laden down with hype. No mention of vanilla, but that’s OK. Notice, however, that Bloog doesn't state that Dulcis is an RY4, only that it's "great for RY4 lovers."

Then I atty-dripped some Bloog Dulcis and discovered why vanilla wasn’t mentioned, because I couldn’t taste any vanilla. Oh, it might be an ingredient in the mix, but it’s so far in the background that I couldn’t pick it out. Yes, indeed, Dulcis’ flavor profile is mostly caramel with a synthetic tobacco underneath. What a surprise! But wait, there’s more. Not only is it mainly caramel and tobacco, but it’s a very clean, smooth caramel and tobacco---not especially sweet, and not very rich. The caramel has a nice flavor, but it’s slightly restrained. Custom RY4s are frequently characterized by extra richness or intensity of flavors; Bloog Dulcis has neither.

So, let’s see. Bloog Dulcis is made in the U.S., has caramel and tobacco, but no vanilla to speak of, plus it’s not particularly sweet and not rich or intensely flavored. It does taste nice and clean, with a good caramel and a neutral synthetic tobacco base. That’s not Classic RY4 territory, since the caramel leads, but it’s not really Custom RY4 territory either, since vanilla is absent and it’s neither sweet nor potent in flavor. Hmmm.

Next, I comparison-vaped Bloog Dulcis against a bunch of other RY4s---VaporTalk Dulcis, Bloog Chinese RY4, SmokelessImage Volt RY4, Janty 2009 RY4, and Apollo RY4. Of those, Apollo RY4 was closest to Dulcis, with Bloog’s own Chinese RY4 in second place. I guess Dulcis could be considered sort of an RY4, just a very lean and refined caramel-tobacco RY4.

Basically, Bloog Dulcis is a very pleasant eliquid that’s 2/3 of a great RY4. It does a terrific job of masquerading as a Classic RY4, even though it’s actually more customized than most Custom RY4s.

Bloog Dulcis grade: B (It's an A as a smooth caramel tobacco, but that's a different thread...)

Link to purchase: Bloog Dulcis

 

[thehangdude]

Dulcis (like dulce) means "sweet" in Latin. Interesting that Bloog chose that name for their not-so-sweet caramel tobacco.

I guess it could also mean pleasant or agreeable.

More like if Wisk put out a detergent named Wisk Boost to copy Tide's Boost line.

So the question for Bill is, does Bloog Dulcis make the RY4 big list?

 

[billherbst]

So the question for Bill is, does Bloog Dulcis make the RY4 big list?

Sure it does, until someone from Bloog contacts us to say that Dulcis was never intended to be an RY4, just a caramel-tobacco that RY4 lovers would enjoy.

 

[Jerms]

Mann had sent me a bunch of juices and one of them was Blend 4 from AVE. I didn't know what it was, but the first vape surprised me. I've only had Boba's and Gorilla in AVE's tobacco line which are great, and this too I found to be very, very tasty. When I went to the site I saw it described as "our take on the classic RY4 formula". I thought, why didn't I think of RY4, it even has a 4 in it's name? Well, after taking another pull I saw why.. it really doesn't taste anything like RY4.

Well, they aren't the only vendor to call a juice an RY4 for reasons I can't imagine (ahem, Ahl), so ignoring that part it's a really interesting tobacco blend from AVE that clicked well with me right away.

Wondering what the RY4 thread though of it, I did a search. Turns out the word blend and the number 4 is used quite extensively here lol. But I did check out the report card and saw Blend 4 isn't on it, which pretty much answers if Bill thinks of it as an RY4. Nope, just pretending to be, but still a fine vape to me.