The Really Big RY4 Roundup (long)

[clnire]

Article from Spinfuel Magazine regarding Diacetyl. The Cathy mentioned in the opening is yours truely. Very informative.

Diacetyl- Risks, Prevalence, and Precautions

Hope this helps dispel some rumors. I, for one, will purchase the new version of Chai Tea Latte when it is released.

Now back to your regularly schedule RY4 programming. I know this is not related directly, but because of the reference to FVFRY4, I thought it be appropriate.

 

[Camay]

Article from Spinfuel Magazine regarding Diacetyl. The Cathy mentioned in the opening is yours truely. Very informative.

Diacetyl- Risks, Prevalence, and Precautions

Hope this helps dispel some rumors. I, for one, will purchase the new version of Chai Tea Latte when it is released.

Now back to your regularly schedule RY4 programming. I know this is not related directly, but because of the reference to FVFRY4, I thought it be appropriate.

Steve at MOV is replacing my FVFRY4 when the new version is available. I will not stop purchasing FVF RY4 from them either - it's still one of my favorites. It is truly an unfortunate issue that has happened to them and they are taking steps to rectify the matter.

Thanks for posting the additional information clnire.

 

[MFToms59]

I have been DIYing ~80-85% of my juices but do a few retail purchases, FVFRY4 among them, once it's reformulated and available, I'll look forward to trying the new version.

I think many forget these tests were voluntarily conducted by MOV, and the results weren't published for public consumption. MOV could have easily kept the discovery quiet, concocted a story of a "flavor supply problem", and reformulated the juice with a flavor from a new "source".

MOV was forthcoming with the revelation of traces of Diacetyl, and a solution to those with the affected liquids, so while some will not buy from MOV because of this revelation, I'll continue to support because I enjoy some of their juices and they were Honest and "manned up".

 

[Jerms]

I have been DIYing ~80-85% of my juices but do a few retail purchases, FVFRY4 among them, once it's reformulated and available, I'll look forward to trying the new version.

I think many forget these tests were voluntarily conducted by MOV, and the results weren't published for public consumption. MOV could have easily kept the discovery quiet, concocted a story of a "flavor supply problem", and reformulated the juice with a flavor from a new "source".

MOV was forthcoming with the revelation of traces of Diacetyl, and a solution to those with the affected liquids, so while some will not buy from MOV because of this revelation, I'll continue to support because I enjoy some of their juices and they were Honest and "manned up".

Can you imagine a cigarette company discovering a possibly harmful substance that may be in their product and telling everyone about their discovery and how they plan to fix it? Shoot, when given proof about their blatant lies about what goes into their product and how they tried to cover it up, they STILL deny it.

What a travesty it would be if restrictions were passed that made those same people in control of our eliquid. I'll enjoy the industry in it's current state while I can.

All MOV did to my eyes is prove how far they're willing to go to make sure their product is safe. They still need to work on making a nic level I prefer though lol.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Can you imagine a cigarette company discovering a possibly harmful substance that may be in their product and telling everyone about their discovery and how they plan to fix it?...

It's easier for me to imagine a standards organization seemingly finding something deficient in a small subset of flavorings. Diacetyl is hardly new news. It may be useful for a standards organization to demonstrate how their standards might keep such products out of ejuice and thus save people from supposed misery and suffering. Doing such might help a standards organization with an agenda of world eliquid domination.

 

[MFToms59]

I fear the day Big Tobacco gets involved in e-liquid production, that's one of the reasons I've been experimenting with my DIY juices.

 

[Ding]

Steve at MOV is replacing my FVFRY4 when the new version is available. I will not stop purchasing FVF RY4 from them either - it's still one of my favorites. It is truly an unfortunate issue that has happened to them and they are taking steps to rectify the matter.

Thanks for posting the additional information clnire.

I have 3 30 ML bottles I got in the first week of december,virginia flake,gambler and country classic.I have been steeping them but have tried each one.I love each one of them.Is this a batch that is in question.?

 

[billherbst]

I have 3 30 ML bottles I got in the first week of december,virginia flake,gambler and country classic.I have been steeping them but have tried each one.I love each one of them.Is this a batch that is in question.?

Since the new versions have not been finalized yet and none has been offered for sale on the MOV web site or shipped out, that means that EVERY existing bottle of the specific four MOV juices in question must be considered part of the safety recall. Doesn't matter whether you bought yours in December or six months ago in July. They probably contain at least trace amounts of diacetyl.

Classic CountRY-4 is not one of the four juices listed, but Full Virginia Flake RY4 is.

 

[Randy C]

QUOTE=Jerms;11804095]Can you imagine a cigarette company discovering a possibly harmful substance that may be in their product and telling everyone about their discovery and how they plan to fix it? Shoot, when given proof about their blatant lies about what goes into their product and how they tried to cover it up, they STILL deny it.

What a travesty it would be if restrictions were passed that made those same people in control of our eliquid. I'll enjoy the industry in it's current state while I can.

All MOV did to my eyes is prove how far they're willing to go to make sure their product is safe. They still need to work on making a nic level I prefer though lol.[/QUOTE]

I disagree Jerms. Not to kick a dead horse, but I think MOV should have tested these favors a long time ago... Dacetyl has been a known threat for years now. It's not that I don't appreciate their honesty, but come on... even MBV and ECB have been testing for this for quite some time. Three is NO EXCUSE for them not to have identified this earlier.

 

[MFToms59]

... Dacetyl has been a known threat for years now. It's not that I don't appreciate their honesty, but come on... even MBV and ECB have been testing for this for quite some time. Three is NO EXCUSE for them not to have identified this earlier.

Dacetyl has been a known threat for years now to be an additive in Butter & Custard type flavors, and those were the ones normally tested. Do you know for certain that MBV & ECB tested every flavor, Apple, Blueberry, Coffee, etc.. like you apparently expected MOV to do? Are you sure ECB & MBV's flavors all passed the tests?, or were some found tainted, but not publicly announced.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but these are a few things to consider when judging the actions, or in-actions of an e-liquid vendor. Personally I avoid the Butter/ Custard liquids/ flavor concentrates myself, I didn't give it a second thought when it came to any Carmel Flavoring or Retail liquid containing Carmel.

 

[TexasVet]

I fear the day Big Tobacco gets involved in e-liquid production, that's one of the reasons I've been experimenting with my DIY juices.

Speaking for a non lab rat, ME, I hope there is a way to buy and sell DIY juices from you folks in some ECF vape filled room should BIG ANYTHING take over e-liquid biz.



Couldn't find anything here in ECF unless the Verified Member thingy is the clue. I'm thinking it's just a PM between friends that's getting it done nowadays.

 

[Jerms]

I disagree Jerms. Not to kick a dead horse, but I think MOV should have tested these favors a long time ago... Dacetyl has been a known threat for years now. It's not that I don't appreciate their honesty, but come on... even MBV and ECB have been testing for this for quite some time. Three is NO EXCUSE for them not to have identified this earlier.

Diacetyl testing is done using gas chromotography in a lab. The equipment is very expensive, costing tens of thousands of dollars, so it's not something most vendors can do themselves. So that means paying a lab to do the testing, which I'm not aware of the cost but I'm guessing the price adds up quick. It looks to me that it doesn't work to just send a sample of each finished product to a lab, but instead each individual flavor used in the products need to be tested seperately.

MOV has had and are continuing to have there flavorings tested for diacetyl. My guess is that the obvious suspects like butter, custard, and cream flavors are tested right away. MOV wasn't aware that caramel posed a risk for diacetyl, which they only discovered in the process of testing all flavorings.

MBV and ECB say they test their flavors for diacetyl. Does that mean they've tested ALL flavorings used, such as caramel? My guess is no, just the usual suspects. Another thing to note, all flavorings MOV uses are claimed to be diacetyl-free by the companies they get them from. It's only through more sensitive testing that it's discovered that some may have micro levels of it.

I think the big thing to learn here is, juice companies that say their product is diacetyl free doesn't mean there's not a risk that hasn't been discovered. It's only diacetyl free as far as they know, and usually based on the word of the flavoring companies they purchase from or testing of a few suspect flavors. The only way to truly avoid the risk is to avoid ALL creamy vapes, buttery or custard vapes, dessert vapes, and now all caramel containing vapes (including RY4 of course). And even that may not be enough, as further testing may show something like banana flavoring may contain diacetyl on a micro level. Choosing to vape any flavored juices means we're taking unknown risks, even if they may be small.

 

[MFToms59]

Speaking for a non lab rat, ME, I hope there is a way to buy and sell DIY juices from you folks in some ECF vape filled room should BIG ANYTHING take over e-liquid biz.

View attachment 293362

Couldn't find anything here in ECF unless the Verified Member thingy is the clue. I'm thinking it's just a PM between friends that's getting it done nowadays.

As far as I know, gifts between friends hasn't been outlawed by Big Brother or ECF. I also believe while some of the smaller vendors may be left by the wayside, I don't see a 100% kill rate happening.

Look what occurred during Prohibition, not to mention that little "Tea Party" held in Boston when we were ruled by the British ... I'm just hypothesizing but history usually is a good indicator of what may happen in the future.

 

[Randy C]

Dacetyl has been a known threat for years now to be an additive in Butter & Custard type flavors, and those were the ones normally tested. Do you know for certain that MBV & ECB tested every flavor, Apple, Blueberry, Coffee, etc.. like you apparently expected MOV to do? Are you sure ECB & MBV's flavors all passed the tests?, or were some found tainted, but not publicly announced.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but these are a few things to consider when judging the actions, or in-actions of an e-liquid vendor. Personally I avoid the Butter/ Custard liquids/ flavor concentrates myself, I didn't give it a second thought when it came to any Carmel Flavoring or Retail liquid containing Carmel.

No disrespect intended, but you're twisting my words to fit your argument. I never suggested that every flavor get tested, but I would expect ANY premium juice vendor to have tested at least their custard and butter flavors by now.

You set your expectations to your desired height and I'll do the same. As for me, I'll stick with vendors who understand their business and regularly invest in testing- especially when a threat has been identified. There are plenty of other vendors that have done just that.

 

[Randy C]

Diacetyl testing is done using gas chromotography in a lab. The equipment is very expensive, costing tens of thousands of dollars, so it's not something most vendors can do themselves. So that means paying a lab to do the testing, which I'm not aware of the cost but I'm guessing the price adds up quick. It looks to me that it doesn't work to just send a sample of each finished product to a lab, but instead each individual flavor used in the products need to be tested seperately.

MOV has had and are continuing to have there flavorings tested for diacetyl. My guess is that the obvious suspects like butter, custard, and cream flavors are tested right away. MOV wasn't aware that caramel posed a risk for diacetyl, which they only discovered in the process of testing all flavorings.

MBV and ECB say they test their flavors for diacetyl. Does that mean they've tested ALL flavorings used, such as caramel? My guess is no, just the usual suspects. Another thing to note, all flavorings MOV uses are claimed to be diacetyl-free by the companies they get them from. It's only through more sensitive testing that it's discovered that some may have micro levels of it.

I think the big thing to learn here is, juice companies that say their product is diacetyl free doesn't mean there's not a risk that hasn't been discovered. It's only diacetyl free as far as they know, and usually based on the word of the flavoring companies they purchase from or testing of a few suspect flavors. The only way to truly avoid the risk is to avoid ALL creamy vapes, buttery or custard vapes, dessert vapes, and now all caramel containing vapes (including RY4 of course). And even that may not be enough, as further testing may show something like banana flavoring may contain diacetyl on a micro level. Choosing to vape any flavored juices means we're taking unknown risks, even if they may be small.

Jerms, I hear what you're saying, but we're never never going to agree on this one. They should have tested risky flavors well before now. It's their responsibility to do this, so I don't understand why this is acceptable to you???

You and I both know other vendors who make it their business to understand nearly every molecule of what goes into their juice.

 

[MFToms59]

No disrespect intended, but you're twisting my words to fit your argument. I never suggested that every flavor get tested, but I would expect ANY premium juice vendor to have tested at least their custard and butter flavors by now...

None Taken, and you make my point in your post to Jerms concerning risky flavors, did anyone know Carmel was risky? I doubt you could be sure about any flavor unless it was tested.

Jerms, I hear what you're saying, but we're never never going to agree on this one. They should have tested risky flavors well before now. It's their responsibility to do this, so I don't understand why this is acceptable to you???...

 

[Jerms]

Jerms, I hear what you're saying, but we're never never going to agree on this one. They should have tested risky flavors well before now. It's their responsibility to do this, so I don't understand why this is acceptable to you???

You and I both know other vendors who make it their business to understand nearly every molecule of what goes into their juice.

Yes, but besides MOV, do you know if ANY vendor is testing their caramel flavorings? I think many vendors, including MOV, test the "risky" flavors, but I don't know if any test all of them. I bet it's much more common for vendors to trust the flavoring companies that claim a flavoring is diacetyl free than actually test them. If it was common practice for vendors to send their caramel flavors in for further testing I would say shame on MOV for not doing it. That's not the case though. What this means now, is MOV is actually one of the few companies that we can trust the future orders will contain caramel that is diacetyl free.

I understand wanting to shame them for selling a product that indeed may have contained diacetyl even though they have a strict diacetyl free policy, I actually did that earlier in a post in the NT thread before looking into it further. But now I see that at the most they share the same blame as every other vendor who hasn't tested their caramel flavorings, which may just be all of them.

 

[billherbst]

Our thread colleague Cool_Breeze sent me a bottle of his DIY made-from-scratch RY4, which he calls MY4. Actually, he sent me two bottles, one with less flavoring and another with more flavoring, sort of MY4 Lite and MY4 Regular.

They're both good Custom RY4s. Lite is very subtle and nuanced, a good vape for a long car trip. I like the Regular version better, though. It has a pleasing richness, nice balance, and takes an interesting flavor trip, starting out sharper and more potent on inhale (in a good way), then becoming ultra smooth on exhale. Sweetness takes the same journey, being stronger on inhale and diminishing (calming?) on exhale. My brain also picks up a very slight nuttiness, but I'm guessing that this is a quality of the flue-cured tobacco flavoring base that Cool used and not an additional flavoring. Anyway, it's barely discernible, but I like it.

I remember back about a year and a half ago on the thread, when we were discussing how strangely difficult it was to DIY a good RY4 from scratch. Up til then, most of us who had tried to make RY4 had produced numerous failures and no successes that I can recall. Well, with my NET-based efforts last spring, plus Passerbyeus' RY4 Frenchy, and now Cool's MY4, it appears that the riddle has been solved. Either that or something in the cosmos changed.

Good work, Cool! You've joined the ranks of RY4 Alchemists.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Our thread colleague Cool_Breeze ...
Good work, Cool! You've joined the ranks of RY4 Alchemists.

lol, Bill. I had just posted you an email suggesting my revised version (stronger flavor) was overdone just before finding your post here. My taster has been all over the place lately. Thanks for your kind words.

 

[Jerms]

Our thread colleague Cool_Breeze sent me a bottle of his DIY made-from-scratch RY4, which he calls MY4. Actually, he sent me two bottles, one with less flavoring and another with more flavoring, sort of MY4 Lite and MY4 Regular.

They're both good Custom RY4s. Lite is very subtle and nuanced, a good vape for a long car trip. I like the Regular version better, though. It has a pleasing richness, nice balance, and takes an interesting flavor trip, starting out sharper and more potent on inhale (in a good way), then becoming ultra smooth on exhale. Sweetness takes the same journey, being stronger on inhale and diminishing (calming?) on exhale. My brain also picks up a very slight nuttiness, but I'm guessing that this is a quality of the flue-cured tobacco flavoring base that Cool used and not an additional flavoring. Anyway, it's barely discernible, but I like it.

I remember back about a year and a half ago on the thread, when we were discussing how strangely difficult it was to DIY a good RY4 from scratch. Up til then, most of us who had tried to make RY4 had produced numerous failures and no successes that I can recall. Well, with my NET-based efforts last spring, plus Passerbyeus' RY4 Frenchy, and now Cool's MY4, it appears that the riddle has been solved. Either that or something in the cosmos changed.

Good work, Cool! You've joined the ranks of RY4 Alchemists.

Impressive. Sounds like a tough undertaking. Lets see, need some caramel, vanilla, and tobacco.. only about a thousand options for each flavor. Kind of an advanced DIYer undertaking, I'm sure 99% of possible combos turn out just ok at best.. before even considering other possible enhancements.