The Really Big RY4 Roundup (long)

[passerbyeus]

I get what your saying about less is more and when I made RY4 Ana thats the way I was trying to go, and was worried there would not be enough flavor putting so less trying to make it balanced, I used more caramel then the vanilla because the vanilla was strong to make it simple, I used 4 drops of caramel and 3 drops of vanilla, so maby one less drop of vanilla and I would get my balance.

 

[billherbst]

Do you have experience with FlavourArt Bitter Wizard? Then again, I suppose bitter is not the same as sour.

Yes, I have Bitter Wizard and have used it, though not with much success. I've had better luck with vape Wizard. My understanding is that Bitter Wizard neutralizes the sweetness inherent to VG and, to some extent, also neutralizes some of the excessive sweetness added by flavorings.

Sourness in RY4s works very differently. What sourness does (to my palate, anyway) is to highlight and clarify the sweetness by providing a counterbalance, like turning up the contrast on a TV. Blacks are blacker; whites are whiter. The sourness in some RY4s may not make them actually taste sweeter, but it enhances the experience of the sweetness.

 

[billherbst]

Two versions last night got me in the ball part, and two more versions this afternoon to achieve the correct ratios have produced a lovely result: diy Classic RY4 version 4 rivals any of the four all-in-one pre-mixed RY4 flavorings I mentioned earlier today: FlavourArt, Hangsen, TFA, and HealthCabin. And mine was made from scratch!

I’ve had my fill of sending out samples. Too much work. But I’m happy to share the recipe:

Classic RY4 v4:
to make a 6ml bottle
2.5% (3 drops) TobaccoExpress tobacco Super-Concentrate
2.5% (3 drops) Lorann Creamy Caramel flavoring
2.5% (3 drops) Nature’s Flavors Bavarian Cream flavoring
0.8% (1 drop) FlavourArt MTS vape Wizard (optional)
1.7% (2 drops) Lorann Tart & Sour (optional)
​

The base ratio of PG-to-VG can be whatever you want, from 99%PG/1% VG to 5%PG/95%VG. I made mine 40/60 PG/VG at 24mg nic strength.

Although the recipe for a 6ml bottle specifies equal amounts (3 drops each) of tobacco, caramel, and vanilla, the synthetic tobacco flavoring I used is a Chinese super-concentrate, so it’s actually the dominant core flavor ingredient, at least twice as potent in the mix as the other two. That’s why the tobacco has to be neutral in flavor. The caramel and vanilla are subtle rather than obvious, imparting their sweeter flavor tones to the tobacco.

This recipe has a lovely high end, a punchy tobacco, great throat hit (24mg nic), and just enough caramel and vanilla to create the traditional Classic RY4 flavor profile without my brain saying “Vanilla” or “Caramel.” Instead, my brain just says, “RY4.” The optional Tart and Sour enhances the sweet-sour contrast, and the optional single drop of Vape Wizard helps meld the ingredients into unity. This juice should be even better after a week or so of steeping.

A lean recipe mix is indeed the key. Who knew it could be so simple? (That’s a rhetorical question; obviously, many juice-makers knew this secret long ago---I’m just late to the party, LOL.) Use as little flavoring as possible and then just balance the ingredients, which unify naturally when used so sparingly. Voila! Quick-N-Easy Classic RY4.

Many other combinations of the three core ingredients from different source manufacturers could be used, but not just any tobacco, caramel, and vanilla flavorings will work. The synthetic tobacco has to be pleasing but neutral, and the caramel and vanilla have to harmonize with each other and support the tobacco, rather than standing out.

I’m not suggesting that Version 4 is the end-all, retail-juice-killer diy Classic RY4, but it’ll do quite nicely as a homemade-from-scratch Classic RY4 until something better comes down the pike. Which might be sooner than later now that I’ve cracked the code. Or maybe I'll just hang up my spurs and retire. Fat chance.

 

[billherbst]

I get what your saying about less is more and when I made RY4 Ana thats the way I was trying to go, and was worried there would not be enough flavor putting so less trying to make it balanced, I used more caramel then the vanilla because the vanilla was strong to make it simple, I used 4 drops of caramel and 3 drops of vanilla, so maby one less drop of vanilla and I would get my balance.

Passer,

Please don't let my momentary exuberance about suddenly coming up with a decent diy Classic RY4 rain on your parade. You're definitely onto something with Ana. You've always been more passionate about RY4 than almost anyone on this thread, certainly more than I was or am, so you're likely to be the one who takes all this and runs with it, if anyone does. I hope you can use what we're both discovering and elevate it to greatness.

 

[billherbst]

I’m continuing the DIY Classic RY4 experiments with surprising gusto. I currently have tried nine versions: 1, 2, 3, 4, 4a, 5, 5a, 6, and 6a.

The later paired versions with two designations each have a particular recipe made either with or without Vape Wizard and Tart and Sour. Making two nearly identical versions that differ only in the addition or exclusion of those two ingredients---neither of which is an actual flavoring, but more of a additive to alter the other flavors---allows me to see their effects on the overall flavor profile.

For instance, without Tart and Sour, Versions 4, 5, and 6 offer Classic flavor profiles similar to Apollo, RWVapor, and MrVape RY4s. With Tart and Sour, the overall taste of V4a, 5a, and 6a shift toward Janty and Vapor..... RY4s.

A couple of insights are emerging. The first is new to me, the second more a re-confirmation of what I already sensed but now see with greater clarity.

Using very small percentages of flavorings allows a greater range of flavor compatibility. When used liberally in larger amounts, many flavorings clash. They assert themselves and challenge the other ingredients. Different flavors are much more likely to harmonize well when used in tiny percentages. In real-world terms, this means that the choice of a certain company’s caramel, vanilla, or bavarian cream over the same flavoring by another company becomes more a matter of choice than necessity.

Also, it’s becoming apparent to me that Classic RY4 “likes” flavorings that stay pretty much in the center of the flavor curve. For instance, Nature’s Flavors Organic Flavorings are a little bit “out there” in a non-standard sort of way, while TFA/Capella/Lorann/FlavourArt are more typical flavors that conform to expectation.

In pragmatic terms, this means that Nature’s Flavors Organics are probably better suited to making Custom RY4s---where exotic is acceptable---than they are to making Classic RY4s---which seem to require middle-of-the-road flavorings. Classic RY4s are supposed to be delicious, of course, but not challenging, whereas certain (not all, but some) Custom RY4s stretch our palates into unexpected realms, for better or worse.

In much the same fashion, I’m re-discovering that, generally speaking, Classic RY4s are not overly “rich” in flavor. Rich or deep flavors are the exclusive domain of Custom RY4s. Classics are lean, with both more delicacy yet also a slightly sharper edge.

For instance, VaporTalk Dulcis is a wonderful RY4, but the rich sweetness of its caramel/vanilla takes it right to the edge of the Classic flavor profile. I think Dulcis makes it in just under the wire for being considered a Classic RY4. Other “dessert” RY4s go right over the edge into Custom territory because of their potent sweetness.

 

[Cnew]

Bill, you truly are the King of RY4s.
Long live the King!

 

[passerbyeus]

That just sounds yummy


Classic RY4 v4:
to make a 6ml bottle
1.7% (3 drops) TobaccoExpress Tobacco Super-Concentrate
1.7% (3 drops) Lorann Creamy Caramel flavoring
1.7% (3 drops) Nature’s Flavors Bavarian Cream flavoring
0.6% (1 drop) FlavourArt MTS Vape Wizard (optional)
1.1% (2 drops) Lorann Tart & Sour (optional)

 

[billherbst]

Version 6 improves on Version 4. V6 uses two less-concentrated caramels (TFA Caramel Candy and Capella Caramel rather than Lorann Creamy Caramel), and a more standard Bavarian Cream (TFA rather than Nature's Flavors).

Once we have a basic template, then variations on the theme become easy. And fun.

I'm sure we can do better, but I like where this is going.

Classic RY4 version 6a:
to make a 6ml bottle
2.5% (3 drops) TobaccoExpress Tobacco Super-Concentrate
2.5% (3 drops) TFA Bavarian Cream flavoring
1.7% (2 drops) TFA Caramel Candy flavoring
1.7% (2 drops) Capella Caramel flavoring
1.7% (2 drops) Lorann Tart & Sour (optional)
0.8% (1 drop) FlavourArt MTS Vape Wizard (optional)

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Bill - Have you done anything with Hangsen RY1?

 

[passerbyeus]

Breeze thats the thing we found out one of the vendors that is high on the list for a US Classic is pretty much just using a premixed RY4 flavoring, we cant prove that, but 99.99999999999% sure lol, so the goal is to make a classic by not cheating

Bill - Have you done anything with Hangsen RY1?

 

[billherbst]

Bill - Have you done anything with Hangsen RY1?

Cool,

I had a 5ml bottle of the Hangsen RY1 retail liquid, along with 5ml bottles of Hangsen RY2 and RY3, purchased from Liberty-Flights more than a year ago. My memory is that all three of them were very similar, with only subtle differences. As I recall, the RY1 was the least sweet, primarily tobacco. I ended up pouring them all together into a single 15ml bottle. But no, other than killing the Hangsen RY1 by combining it with RY2 and RY3, I haven't done anything with it. LOL.

But you're probably asking about Hangsen's all-in-one pre-mixed RY-series flavorings, right? EcigExpress offers both Hangsen RY1 and RY3 in addition to Hangsen's RY4 flavoring concentrate. Why no RY2? I don't know. Anyway, I haven't purchased either the RY1 or RY3 flavorings. The only one I've tried is Hangsen's RY4 concentrate.

 

[billherbst]

A further revelation:

As I vape Version 6 and compare it head-to-head against the highest-rated Classic RY4 retail juices, I'm discovering that using even less caramel and vanilla flavoring moves my DIY v6 closer.

Twice already I've added 20% more base (PG/VG/liquid nic) and tobacco flavoring, so that the caramel and vanilla are further diluted/reduced. After nearly doubling the amount of liquid, v6 tastes even more like a good retail Classic RY4. Amazing how little caramel and vanilla are needed---1% of each is apparently enough. The challenge is to maintain the brightness and sharp treble notes of the Classic RY4 profile, and the answer seems to be even less flavoring than the small percentages with which I began.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Cool,

...But you're probably asking about Hangsen's all-in-one pre-mixed RY-series flavorings, right? EcigExpress offers both Hangsen RY1 and RY3 in addition to Hangsen's RY4 flavoring concentrate. Why no RY2? I don't know. Anyway, I haven't purchased either the RY1 or RY3 flavorings. The only one I've tried is Hangsen's RY4 concentrate.

Yes, I received some Hangsen RY1 flavoring this week.

 

[billherbst]

Report from the Mad Scientist’s Lab:

Today I did three more experiments making 6ml bottles of diy Classic RY4. I tried my current best recipe (v7, which is simply v6 with even less caramel and vanilla) using three different synthetic tobacco flavorings: TFA Flue-Cured flavoring, TFA DK-TAB flavoring, and DecadentVapors Tobacco flavoring. I’d been using the Chinese synthetic flavoring from TobaccoExpress called “Tobacco.” That super-concentrate was purchased from EcigExpress and chosen for its middle-of-the-road flavor and general neutrality. I wondered how other tobaccos would fare.

My expectation was that Flue-Cured and DK-TAB wouldn’t be ideal tobacco bases for a Classic RY4, for the simple reason that both concentrates impart a distinct and slightly eccentric tobacco flavor. TFA Flue-Cured is probably Burley and Virginia flavor, and DK-TAB has the infamous Chinese mystery nut. I had higher hopes for DV Tobacco, whose description from the manufacturer was “medium smoky, with sun-cured Burley notes.” I thought maybe on that one.

For the other ingredients, I used:

1.7% (2 drops) Capella Caramel
1.7% (2 drops) Capella French Vanilla
1.7% (2 drops) Lorann Tart & Sour
0.8% (1 drop) FlavourArt MTS Vape Wizard
all three 6ml bottles were mixed with a 50/50 PG/VG base @ 24 mg nic strength
​

Results were exactly as expected. The Flue-Cured and DK-TAB tobaccos didn’t harmonize as well with the caramel and vanilla. They stood out rather than blending in, and they just didn’t taste right for a Classic RY4.

DecadentVapors Tobacco was, indeed, better. Not as good as the TobaccoExpress Tobacco super-concentrate I’ve been using, but workable.

I then tried adding one additional drop of TFA Caramel Candy and TFA Bavarian Cream to each bottle, pushing the overall percentages caramel and vanilla to 1.7% each. The only result that produced was to make each of the three tobacco versions more of what they already were. DK-TAB remained the worst---DK-TAB is simply the wrong tobacco flavor for any RY4, Classic or Custom. Flue-Cured wasn't terrible, but it wasn't particularly good, either. DV Tobacco remained the pick of this particular litter, but not as good as TobaccoExpress Tobacco. And none of the three could hold a candle to a retail juice Classic RY4, such as SmoklessImage Volt RY4.

I’m still puzzling some over how to accentuate the brightness and treble notes in the flavor profile. That’s one of the central characteristics of at least two of the best retail juice Chinese RY4s. Both the Janty RY4s and SmoklessImage Volt RY4 have it in spades---an almost efforvescent sparkle that leans toward brassy---and while my best diy recipe so far (v7) gets reasonably close, it’s only 60% there. I’ve succeeded nicely in achieving the unified singularity of overall flavor by keeping the percentages of caramel and vanilla very low (which also gives the juice a nice lean Classic bite), but the high-end sparkle isn’t yet where I'd like it to be.

In fairness, though, many of the higher-rated Classic RY4s don't quite sparkle---their high-end notes are smooth and calm rather than emphatic---so if I can't figure it out, that won't mean failure.

In the meantime, however, back to the lab…

 

[thehangdude]

Bill,
I think to get the high notes, you may have to use Cotton Candy or Marshmallow or ethyl maltol. You also may need to lower the french vanilla/bovarian cream, as those are "darker" vanillas.

 

[billherbst]

Bill,
I think to get the high notes, you may have to use Cotton Candy or Marshmallow or ethyl maltol. You also may need to lower the french vanilla/bovarian cream, as those are "darker" vanillas.

Thanks, dude!

In my flavorings stash, I've got two Chinese Vanillas (from Health Cabin and FruitExpress), TFA Vanilla Bourbon, Vanilla Swirl, and Vanilla Bean Ice Cream, MtBaker Madagascar Vanilla, TFA Cotton Candy and Toasted Marshmallow, and Marshmallow from TFA and Capella. I've also got a bunch of vanilla custards and vanilla cupcakes, but those are obviously wrong for RY4.

I'll try the Chinese vanillas first and then substitute the cotton candy/marshmallow and see what happens. "Non-circus" cotton candy flavoring is usually just straight ethyl maltol, and marshmallow is ethyl maltol with a tiny bit of added vanilla.

It's curious to me that of the highly-ranked Classic RY4s, only Janty, Bloog, and SmokelessImage have that extreme high-end brilliance, but no others that I can think of. I seem to recall that Riskee Yuice and Elixir RY4 had it when they were fresh, but moderate steeping calmed them. Dulcis and Taboo never had it. The other possibility is that my stash of RY4s has just gotten very old and the others have lost their treble edge from the ravages of time.

I can never resist a good typo joke. Is "bovarian cream" a silky, vanilla-and-cream dessert from cows? or maybe from German ovaries? or even from a tiny village in Italy (Bovara)? LOL.

 

[thehangdude]

Forget that I said bovarian cream, it was a typo. What I meant to say was Vanilla Custard.

"dessert from cows" ... very funny!

 

[billherbst]

Forget that I said bovarian cream, it was a typo. What I meant to say was Vanilla Custard.

dude,

I loved that typo. Best smile I've had all day. Let's hear it for wandering fingers and wonky spelling!

And I think you're right about Vanilla Custard/Bavarian Cream. Both of them are probably too "gooey" for Classic RY4, which needs a clean, light vanilla.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I have FA Vanilla Bourbon flavoring and Madagascar Vanilla from RWVapors. I have a couple of tobacco flavorings. Were I to get only one Caramel flavoring, what might be a good one?

 

[thehangdude]

I have FA Vanilla Bourbon flavoring and Madagascar Vanilla from RWVapors. I have a couple of tobacco flavorings. Were I to get only one Caramel flavoring, what might be a good one?

Capella has 13ml bottles for only $2.98. Their Vanilla Custard is a bit rich, but their Caramel is good as an RY4 caramel.
They also have French Vanilla and Vanilla Cupcake, but I haven't tried them. I really like the Sweet Guava (straight @ 18%).