There you go again, linking vaping negatively with smoking

[jandrew]

That's a comminatry article, not an original research paper. It's the opinion of the two authors. That's it. And if they choose to only cite other studies that support their contention, well, that's pretty biased. When I see a meta analysis of every published article in the medical literature that demonstrates that the vast majority of studies published show no addictive qualities to nicotine I'll be thrilled to read how I must be crazy that if I vape 0 nic I get cravings.

Yes it is a commentary paper, commenting on the bias in the SG report and citing a number of studies which (at the very least) call into question the addictive model of nicotine put forward in the SG report.

It is not saying nicotine isn't addictive, nor am I. But that nicotine as the primary addictive constituent of smoking is highly questionable. Smoking certainly is addictive, and nicotine may well play a role in that addiction, and smoking may well lead to nicotine addiction (many cofactors may be involved in becoming addicted, and one may well be addicted to nicotine in isolation after becoming addicted to smoking).

Note that in medical studies using oral or patch nicotine as possible treatments of such things as ulcerative colitis or neural diseases like parkinson's or alzheimer's (see for example: Nicotine treatment for ulcerative colitis) there are not reports of entire cohorts of nicotine addicted people after 6 weeks of nicotine treatment (or any addiction problems reported for that matter).

 

[bombastinator]

Yes it is a commentary paper, commenting on the bias in the SG report and citing a number of studies which (at the very least) call into question the addictive model of nicotine put forward in the SG report.

It is not saying nicotine isn't addictive, nor am I. But that nicotine as the primary addictive constituent of smoking is highly questionable. Smoking certainly is addictive, and nicotine may well play a role in that addiction, and smoking may well lead to nicotine addiction (many cofactors may be involved in becoming addicted, and one may well be addicted to nicotine in isolation after becoming addicted to smoking).

Note that in medical studies using oral or patch nicotine as possible treatments of such things as ulcerative colitis or neural diseases like parkinson's or alzheimer's (see for example: Nicotine treatment for ulcerative colitis) there are not reports of entire cohorts of nicotine addicted people after 6 weeks of nicotine treatment (or any addiction problems reported for that matter).

In support of your point I’ve seen claims that there are multiple known substances in tobacco that increase the addictivness of nicotine. Then there’s also the trade secret stuff the tobacco companies add which we don’t have access to.

 

[Eskie]

I gotta go to bed. I will get back. I have experimented at different time frames of abstinence from nic. I dont vape nic every week. I dont vape the same mg/ml every week, I change up and down.
I have a good reference point for addiction to tobacco and a good understanding of addiction.
There are vapers here who say they feel no nicotine hit, I feel a nicotine hit clearly even at 2mg and am amazed at posters who say that even at 24mg they feel no hit. I only say that to high light how differently individuals experience nicotine.
There are posters here and on other forums who like me find that nic isnt the draw that tobacco was and can do with out nic for weeks with out any real affect but with tobacco 1hr was a mission to go without.
Similarly I can drink beer or not, I might go 6months of winter without it and then as summer happens and it starts hitting 36c I might have a few. A practicing alcoholic would not switch on and off like that. I think that some people are like alcoholics with nic and others can take it or leave it. I think some dont know that they could take or leave it.

Oh, I agree with you, we're all different with this stuff. That you can switch on and off without an issue is great. But it's not the norm for long term smokers. I was always jealous of people who could smoke "socially". Have a few cigarettes when say out for a drink and then nothing for weeks. That wasn't me.

The comparison to alcohol is a good one. Certainly not every person who ever had a beer becomes an alcoholic. There are risk factors that may influence that possibility and folks who can't just have one beer and not go back for another for weeks or months. But most people who drink even say one glass of whatever a day will never develop an alcohol addiction. Some, a minority, will. Same goes for opiates. Not everyone who gets an opiate prescribed after surgery develops an addiction. A large majority don't. A small minority will.

There are so many genetic and neurochemical variations that affect the risk of addiction (substance use disorder is the new term for it these days) that extrapolation experience across a population is really really hard to do. Even socioeconomic and family dynamics need to be considered. Addiction is not a simple process. Treatment is not simple. Going by the recent New England Journal of Medicine article only 9% of smokers stopped for one year with a traditional patch. 18% with e cigarettes. Great that e cigs were twice as effective. But that also means there were still 70% who couldn't stop with either. Vaping isn't a cure all here. It's just another tool. We, the folks hanging our on a vape forum, are the ones it worked for. We can't ignore there are still a whole bunch of other smokers out there who need something else. And some who will never stop.

Just like there are those who wake up one morning, decide they won't smoke anymore and they're done. But they're the exception, not the rule.

 

[Jebbn]

Oh, I agree with you, we're all different with this stuff. That you can switch on and off without an issue is great. But it's not the norm for long term smokers. I was always jealous of people who could smoke "socially". Have a few cigarettes when say out for a drink and then nothing for weeks. That wasn't me.

The comparison to alcohol is a good one. Certainly not every person who ever had a beer becomes an alcoholic. There are risk factors that may influence that possibility and folks who can't just have one beer and not go back for another for weeks or months. But most people who drink even say one glass of whatever a day will never develop an alcohol addiction. Some, a minority, will. Same goes for opiates. Not everyone who gets an opiate prescribed after surgery develops an addiction. A large majority don't. A small minority will.

There are so many genetic and neurochemical variations that affect the risk of addiction (substance use disorder is the new term for it these days) that extrapolation experience across a population is really really hard to do. Even socioeconomic and family dynamics need to be considered. Addiction is not a simple process. Treatment is not simple. Going by the recent New England Journal of Medicine article only 9% of smokers stopped for one year with a traditional patch. 18% with e cigarettes. Great that e cigs were twice as effective. But that also means there were still 70% who couldn't stop with either. Vaping isn't a cure all here. It's just another tool. We, the folks hanging our on a vape forum, are the ones it worked for. We can't ignore there are still a whole bunch of other smokers out there who need something else. And some who will never stop.

Just like there are those who wake up one morning, decide they won't smoke anymore and they're done. But they're the exception, not the rule.

Im trying to go to bed dammit! Its 2:16 am.
I smoked for 42yrs no real break in that time. I was unable to quit even though I tried.

 

[Eskie]

Im trying to go to bed dammit! Its 2:16 am.
I smoked for 42yrs no real break in that time. I was unable to quit even though I tried.

Go to bed. The best news is you're free of a 40 year smoking habit. That's deserves a big congrats! At the end of all of this, that's all that matters!

See you tomorrow!

 

[Jebbn]

Go to bed. The best news is you're free of a 40 year smoking habit. That's deserves a big congrats! At the end of all of this, that's all that matters!

See you tomorrow!

Well, Ive thought during the day about how to start and progress through explaining the process that helped me arrive at the point where I dont think nicotine is particularly addictive, for me. Its tough going to get the whole thing down in a concise and on point synopsis!!! Its not like I want to convince anyone of anything and its no more than one persons different experience.

Im working on it. Its just that its not an easily demonstrable thing in text that I dont feel a strong addiction from nic.
It can only ever be an opinion until I get that shipment of lab rats, mice, some pigeons and the 27 never smokers, some nicotine free tobacco and I find sexy lab assistant that knows how to "get" stuff.

Its like all I can say is yeah i dont feel a strong addiction to nicotine because I go without it regularly and dont think theres much impact on my general demeanor by its absence or on any of the situations I might find myself in while abstaining.

Ive actually written more but it only amounts to me saying I go for extended periods of time without nic and dont feel much about it Last time I posted that some one replied "so you do feel 'something' about it"

 

[Zazie]

Well, Ive thought during the day about how to start and progress through explaining the process that helped me arrive at the point where I dont think nicotine is particularly addictive, for me. Its tough going to get the whole thing down in a concise and on point synopsis!!! Its not like I want to convince anyone of anything and its no more than one persons different experience.

Im working on it. Its just that its not an easily demonstrable thing in text that I dont feel a strong addiction from nic.
It can only ever be an opinion until I get that shipment of lab rats, mice, some pigeons and the 27 never smokers, some nicotine free tobacco and I find sexy lab assistant that knows how to "get" stuff.

Its like all I can say is yeah i dont feel a strong addiction to nicotine because I go without it regularly and dont think theres much impact on my general demeanor by its absence or on any of the situations I might find myself in while abstaining.

Ive actually written more but it only amounts to me saying I go for extended periods of time without nic and dont feel much about it Last time I posted that some one replied "so you do feel 'something' about it"

Junkie.

 

[Jebbn]

Junkie.

I laughed, out loud.

 

[Eskie]

Hey, that's totally fair. Like with any other substance, addiction and addictive behaviors vary and no one size fits all is ever appropriate. The fact you can switch back and forth is pretty clear evidence that for you nicotine isn't a terrible dependence.

Here's an interesting point that may help clarify the variability in addictiveness to nicotine. There are a subgroup of people with an illness called Buerger's disease. The disease is characterized by terrible peripheral artery disease that occurs with exposure to nicotine in any form. While folks usually start out as smokers, it can occur with smokeless tobacco, and even the use of a patch is not tolerated as it leads to continuing damage. What's particularly terrible about it is those suffering from it find it virtually impossible to stop obtaining nicotine. Even as they watch their limbs being amputated they still cannot break the addiction.

Now Bueger's is an uncommon illness, and it raises an interesting question which remains unanswered and that is could there be a specific defect in nicotininc receptors both in their brain which induces craving, while at the same time leaving similar abnormal receptors on the peripheral arteries extremely sensitive to the artery constriction that nicotine causes in these folks? Under normal conditions our arteries constrict when exposed to nicotine but relax back to normal as the levels drop. In these folks it seems like it never "relaxes".

Now smoking can do the same type damage to others who smoke, but if you can get off the cigarettes, even with a nicotine patch, you can stabilize and even improve circulation. And when folks are presented with the option of potentially losing limbs they end up pretty motivated to stop, and can tolerate nicotine introduced through NRT to help. But not these folks.

It goes to show the wide range addiction to nicotine can take and again, there is no one size fits all definition. Or treatment for that matter because just like NRT with patches and gums only work in a small number of smokers, vaping doesn't work in the majority of cases either. Vaping is just another tool to have to help people caught up in cigarette smoking. But it's not a cure all, just as not every person exposed to nicotine invariably develop a dependence on it.

Same is true of just about every drug of abuse out there. IMHO, the best advice to anyone remains don't try your luck, because what if you are the person who gets hooked? Why try it and hope for the best when the worst is really, well, the worst.