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What a crock, as usual!!!!This was my response from the White.Gov post
- Thread starter LeAnn
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What a crock, as usual!!!!
This line is where i cry BS. Cigarettes are between $4-$12 per pack. Most "children" can afford this with their allowance or by saving lunch money. Most kids that I know don't have access to a credit card to buy a decent starter kit online OR have enough cash to buy a crappy kiosk e-cig. Honestly IMO if I released a product that had a 100% addiction rate and a 100% chance to cause measurable harm then it would be declared illegal. If they want to get rid of cigarettes then stop .....footing around and just make them illegal...oh wait...forgot about the lobbyists and governmental corruption...man maybe we should all take our 2012 mod budget and use it to buy a senator or two.
Loaded guns, kittens, puppies, sex, drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol are interesting to kids because they are forbidden. You show me the kid that hasn't swiped 2 fingers from the old man's liquor cabinet and i'll put him up for canonization. Flavor has little to nothing to do with it until you already know that the standard flavor sucks. The flavors are there for the adults because some of us think that tobacco flavors are useless. E-cigarettes aren't "cool" nor do i think that they ever will be because they are a form of Harm Reduction and no kid wants to minimize his risk to impress his friends, and i'm pretty sure that most of us started the death sticks because it was "cool". Again, if they really wanted to stop the smoking then they would ban the butts, because nothing else that you do, from taking away menthol, banning the word "Light", or putting a graphic label on the pack, is going to stop the kids from smoking if they want to.
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How about we get rid of all Politicians and members of Congress “for the children.” Lawyers too...... Lord knows that's truly the only real fix and the only way our children will ever have a positive future and sadly I fear the only real fix for all the stupid rampant in today’s society.
Don't try to argue that we don't appeal to kids.
I'm 23, and I think e-cigs are cool. I would have thought they were cool when I was in high school (mere 5 years ago) and I wasn't even a smoker. There were three reasons why I didn't smoke in high school:
1. My parents were so adamantly anti-cigarette. They told me and my brothers that if they ever caught us smoking they would throw us out of the house.
2. The belief that it leads to crippling addiction that is on a direct path to lung cancer and heart disease* which means death.
3. Stigma against smokers in my school. There weren't many of them, but I was friends with the smokers, but I was also friends with people who would be repulsed if they ever saw me holding a cigarette.
If I heard about e-cigs I would be all over that. I might not ever be able to afford one (can barely afford one now), but I would be into it. Regardless of nicotine.
They look cool and they feel cool. While it is true that some people that think smoking is cool because of the sense of danger, it is also true that, if you nixed the danger, you would make it cool to a lot more people. Oh wait: We can accessorize, buy flashy mods/cartos, and use them whereever we want?
You are oblivious if you think the ecig culture today makes the topic totally lame except for old people who ONLY do it for their health (if you vape exclusively flavorless liquid you might be excused from this).
Don't delude yourself into thinking that we can vape banana smoothie and mint chocolate chip and can maintain that we don't offer anything to entice kids. Yes banana rum is a good counter-example, but it nevertheless makes it true that we do offer something to kids. PV's are cool, they're flashy, have their own exclusivity--who was the cool person in high school? the one with the coolest car--they produce stuff that tastes amazing, and more, we can inhale and look cool exhaling clouds of vapor.
Don't bother with that argument.
Also, using terms like ENDS and Harm Reduction (in caps), isn't fooling anyone. Not until there is significant research on it, can people start coding technical terms to it. Until it is introduced to the mainstream medical arena, which judging from the anecdotal evidence that most doctors are oblivious to it seems to prove otherwise, it is best to avoid this strategy. By no means am I saying we can't say harm reduction and electronic nicotine delivery system, I'm saying that trying to sound so technical all the time isn't really fooling anyone.
*Acknowledge the harm. Electronic cigarettes are dangerous and risky. Nicotine poses a significant health risk to anyone that uses it. We may have side-stepped cancer, but heart disease and strokes still await us. Yes, nicotine has similar risk as caffeine, but most people aren't drinking shots of espresso every hour they're awake. Don't bother trying to escape the heart disease lobbyists.
I'm 23, and I think e-cigs are cool. I would have thought they were cool when I was in high school (mere 5 years ago) and I wasn't even a smoker. There were three reasons why I didn't smoke in high school:
1. My parents were so adamantly anti-cigarette. They told me and my brothers that if they ever caught us smoking they would throw us out of the house.
2. The belief that it leads to crippling addiction that is on a direct path to lung cancer and heart disease* which means death.
3. Stigma against smokers in my school. There weren't many of them, but I was friends with the smokers, but I was also friends with people who would be repulsed if they ever saw me holding a cigarette.
If I heard about e-cigs I would be all over that. I might not ever be able to afford one (can barely afford one now), but I would be into it. Regardless of nicotine.
They look cool and they feel cool. While it is true that some people that think smoking is cool because of the sense of danger, it is also true that, if you nixed the danger, you would make it cool to a lot more people. Oh wait: We can accessorize, buy flashy mods/cartos, and use them whereever we want?
You are oblivious if you think the ecig culture today makes the topic totally lame except for old people who ONLY do it for their health (if you vape exclusively flavorless liquid you might be excused from this).
Don't delude yourself into thinking that we can vape banana smoothie and mint chocolate chip and can maintain that we don't offer anything to entice kids. Yes banana rum is a good counter-example, but it nevertheless makes it true that we do offer something to kids. PV's are cool, they're flashy, have their own exclusivity--who was the cool person in high school? the one with the coolest car--they produce stuff that tastes amazing, and more, we can inhale and look cool exhaling clouds of vapor.
Don't bother with that argument.
Also, using terms like ENDS and Harm Reduction (in caps), isn't fooling anyone. Not until there is significant research on it, can people start coding technical terms to it. Until it is introduced to the mainstream medical arena, which judging from the anecdotal evidence that most doctors are oblivious to it seems to prove otherwise, it is best to avoid this strategy. By no means am I saying we can't say harm reduction and electronic nicotine delivery system, I'm saying that trying to sound so technical all the time isn't really fooling anyone.
*Acknowledge the harm. Electronic cigarettes are dangerous and risky. Nicotine poses a significant health risk to anyone that uses it. We may have side-stepped cancer, but heart disease and strokes still await us. Yes, nicotine has similar risk as caffeine, but most people aren't drinking shots of espresso every hour they're awake. Don't bother trying to escape the heart disease lobbyists.
Boy, this is such a hard debate and I certainly don't have the answers, only my personal experiences.
1. I too grew up with non smoking parents who were also adamently against smoking. I still started despite their threats similar to the poster above. I can't tell you if it would have made any difference to me back then as PV's were not around. I am going on 44 and had been a smoker for about 28 years. Despite my strict non-smoking parents, watching my grandmother die of lung cancer and other family friends have serious health consequences as a direct result of smoking, I still became a smoker.
2. It's been too long ago when I first started smoking as a child to really remember WHAT made me decide to try that first cigarette, but I can tell you that for me it was NEVER about being or looking cool. I snuck smokes from smokers packs and would go out to the barn alone and smoke, by myself. It was purely the feeling that I felt that kept me smoking and had absoultely nothing to do with looks or fitting in with a certain crowd or trying to look cool. I didn't dare smoke around anyone else for fear of the punishment that was sure to come for smoking.
3. Although I was a smoker, few people knew or ever saw me smoke. Only close friends, who were also smokers, did I smoke in front of. And this was how it was even as an "adult".
I certainly don't know the statistics or even if there are, or possibly could be, good statistics on what makes kids start smoking. I do not know if vaping seems MORE enticing to kids than smoking. I belive some will start smoking, like me, no matter what. Although I do not have any deluded ideas that vaping is 100% safe and has absouletly no health consequenses whatsoever, I feel it is safer than smoking. Having a 17 year old son myself, who started sneaking my cigarettes at about 14, I can say that I prefer he vape than smoke. I would really prefer he did not do either.
Alcohol falls into the same scenario here, I suppose. Fancy fruity or sweet liquors or malt beverages are not a new product. There were these types of liquors and drinks around that I can remember as a child as well. And... yes, I snuck that too. I do not drink hard alcohol at all anymore, but am a huge fan of micro brew's, IPA's are my favorites, the hoppier the better. As a kid, I liked the taste of beer... which, I guess is not common. I don't know. I also tried vodka, rum, brandy (flavored and regular) whiskey, flavored sweet liqueors, etc. so on and so on. In my underage drinking teenage years, I can tell you that as far as alcohol went, it did not matter what it was or tasted like. The goal was to get drunk. Maybe it was because the alcohol was a little harder to get, I don't recall preferring booze that some consider "more appealing to kids" because of the flavor.
As far as caffeine goes, well, yep you guessed it... I am a coffee drinker as well. Just straight black coffee. No foo foo, flavors and this was the only thing I didn't have to sneak as a child. LOL! But, hey... what about all these energy drinks, like red bull, monster, etc... ANY person of ANY age can legally purchase and drink these cans of poison and it's not JUST the caffeine that poses the harm with these types of products. Are they appealing to children? Hell yes! Health risks, you bet! But few seem to be concearned that our youth guzzle these down like water.
Not trying to make light of this whole topic or anything, but I am just relaying my experiences of how I got started on my addictions as a child. For some, the look and flavor may make vaping seem more enticing. I don't know. I don't believe that if the only option for ecig juice flavors was something really nasty tasting or tasteless, or that alcohol was only available in the most raunchy rot-gut flavors that it would prevent kids from getting started smoking, vaping or drinking. Maybe for some, it would deter... I know it did not deter me. I thought cigarettes tasted terrible, but I still became a smoker.
1. I too grew up with non smoking parents who were also adamently against smoking. I still started despite their threats similar to the poster above. I can't tell you if it would have made any difference to me back then as PV's were not around. I am going on 44 and had been a smoker for about 28 years. Despite my strict non-smoking parents, watching my grandmother die of lung cancer and other family friends have serious health consequences as a direct result of smoking, I still became a smoker.
2. It's been too long ago when I first started smoking as a child to really remember WHAT made me decide to try that first cigarette, but I can tell you that for me it was NEVER about being or looking cool. I snuck smokes from smokers packs and would go out to the barn alone and smoke, by myself. It was purely the feeling that I felt that kept me smoking and had absoultely nothing to do with looks or fitting in with a certain crowd or trying to look cool. I didn't dare smoke around anyone else for fear of the punishment that was sure to come for smoking.
3. Although I was a smoker, few people knew or ever saw me smoke. Only close friends, who were also smokers, did I smoke in front of. And this was how it was even as an "adult".
I certainly don't know the statistics or even if there are, or possibly could be, good statistics on what makes kids start smoking. I do not know if vaping seems MORE enticing to kids than smoking. I belive some will start smoking, like me, no matter what. Although I do not have any deluded ideas that vaping is 100% safe and has absouletly no health consequenses whatsoever, I feel it is safer than smoking. Having a 17 year old son myself, who started sneaking my cigarettes at about 14, I can say that I prefer he vape than smoke. I would really prefer he did not do either.
Alcohol falls into the same scenario here, I suppose. Fancy fruity or sweet liquors or malt beverages are not a new product. There were these types of liquors and drinks around that I can remember as a child as well. And... yes, I snuck that too. I do not drink hard alcohol at all anymore, but am a huge fan of micro brew's, IPA's are my favorites, the hoppier the better. As a kid, I liked the taste of beer... which, I guess is not common. I don't know. I also tried vodka, rum, brandy (flavored and regular) whiskey, flavored sweet liqueors, etc. so on and so on. In my underage drinking teenage years, I can tell you that as far as alcohol went, it did not matter what it was or tasted like. The goal was to get drunk. Maybe it was because the alcohol was a little harder to get, I don't recall preferring booze that some consider "more appealing to kids" because of the flavor.
As far as caffeine goes, well, yep you guessed it... I am a coffee drinker as well. Just straight black coffee. No foo foo, flavors and this was the only thing I didn't have to sneak as a child. LOL! But, hey... what about all these energy drinks, like red bull, monster, etc... ANY person of ANY age can legally purchase and drink these cans of poison and it's not JUST the caffeine that poses the harm with these types of products. Are they appealing to children? Hell yes! Health risks, you bet! But few seem to be concearned that our youth guzzle these down like water.
Not trying to make light of this whole topic or anything, but I am just relaying my experiences of how I got started on my addictions as a child. For some, the look and flavor may make vaping seem more enticing. I don't know. I don't believe that if the only option for ecig juice flavors was something really nasty tasting or tasteless, or that alcohol was only available in the most raunchy rot-gut flavors that it would prevent kids from getting started smoking, vaping or drinking. Maybe for some, it would deter... I know it did not deter me. I thought cigarettes tasted terrible, but I still became a smoker.
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