TropicalBob...the china thing..

[Vapor Pete]

Anyway,
Back on topic... which was Tallgirl asking Tropical Bob to state his bottom line point about the China thing.....
My best,
-VP

 

[Tallgirl1974]

"Tall i guess you overlooked the entire point. "

???

"Its not about that. Its about companies doing whatever they can do to cut corners and reduce costs. If they can produce a product in a sweat shop with child labor and very little regulation, they will do so. "

I don't disagree. And you're point? Do you think it only happens in china?


"Is the FDA a perfect system or any other system for that matter, of course not. But It is a known fact that companies go overseas for cheaper costs and to cut corners on regulatory laws that do not exist in other countries. "

Are you sure? Or do they just not get caught? We have laws and regulations and yet, gasp, people died from USA peanut butter.

"you know its so easy to point out all the flaws in the United States, but no one ever wants to point out how far worse some other countries and systems are."

I enjoy both.

"And people who make such claims should put their money where there mouth is. I would love to see people here feel totally confident importing all their food from china with a worry free head. Its not a conspiracy, China has a history of problems with poor regulation standards and food contamination. "

Conspiracy? WTH man. WE have a history of it too! You sound a tad racists to be honest. I can show you some places down in New Orleans that would make you gag- and they are all american run. I'm not confident importing *all my food from anywhere. Our FDA allows a certain amount of ecoli in our food- a certain amount of hairs in your food, poops, etc. The FDA does not inspect the china based companies that we *already have approved here-(I hate % but its somewhere high like 97 percent of all FDA approved chemicals made in china are *not inspected) I really dont have any faith in them doing so for this either. I guess my point is- it matters nadda to me if they approve or disapprove of the ecig or its contents. I just dont give them that much credit or control over my saftey.
It wont make me feel better if they regulate it, approve it as a drug, and stamp their name on it. It will still be made in china, unregulated. Welcome to america.

 

[paladinx]

Cant argue with any one of your points in particular. I do agree with many of your points. But at the end of the day sure there is a lot of crap that goes on behind closed doors, and loopholes and a bunch of bologna because of profit and power. But there is an importance for regulation in its purest sense. It does serve a purpose even though unfortunately its never perfect and probably full of a lot of corruption and wrong doings like everything else in this world. But you cannot dismiss the notion or purpose of regulation all together. It does serve a purpose that is needed. Its part of a civilized society where people need to be liable for their actions and held to some sort of accountability. And again unfortunately, history kind of shows that people will do what they can get away with. You can look at any flaws or faults of any country and their regulatory agencies. Some are worse than others.

Lets put it this way, I much rather eat a hot dog today than I would in say 1930. Why? because the companies did not give a rats ... what they put in the meat, whatever was the cheapest thing to use, that is what you consumed. If it were not for govt regulations on meat products, I think we still would be eating things we wouldnt believe. And I will take all the regulation I can get if it helps prevent even one unnecessary death. If one bottle happened to have 20x the nicotine by accident and a batch testing regulation caught the problem, well thats better than nothing.

and when it comes to china, I REALLy do agree with you. The FDA probably only inspects a fraction of what comes in. But that should make us even more concerned. Just google Food contamination China, and u will see that as bad as we are, at least we dont use industrial chemicals to make infant formulas and milk products that have killed many.


and lastly your view is kind of contradicting itself in a way. You were very quick to bring up and use PG studies and reports when it had something positive to say in your favor, and kind of ridiculed me when I questioned some things. but now all of the evidence out there showing that china has major quality control and contamination problems are a conspiracy or misleading. or that u cannot believe anything type attitude. You seem to pick and chose what you want to believe in that suits you. And i believe bob tries to see all sides of the coin.

 

[OutWest]

Do we assume everything the FDA approves and regulates is "safe?" Do you know how many rat turds the FDA allows per bottle of peanut butter for it to pass inspections? If you believe the number to be zero than you'd be wrong.
I was really more fascinated with the china implications. Its a myth to believe that china made items are bad JUST because they were made in china. They(workers) don't cut corners just for fun, they are told to cut corners. Mattel is the leading toy company in our country- they have china based factories- they have had the most recalls on their products- due to them trying to make more money and not meet regulations. Them, the American based company is at fault there- not china. You know?
Also china isn't famous for recalls and bad products based on facts and true data- its propaganda and media fed BS- the numbers are blown so far out of proportion it is insanity. Other countries, including our own, also go thru recalls and bad products, poisonings, etc. If our FDA worked at all, our numbers would not be as high as countries without strict regulations?

another part of it is companies beating down mfgs in china (and elsewhere for that matter) for better price. You insist on ultra cheap price and something is going to give, ultimately product quality and safety. Walmart is a perfect example of a company that beats down the mfgs. They will take mfg reps and put them in a room together and make them bid against each other for cheapest price. They will also get a company dependent on walmart sales and then tell them "we're not going to buy any more product unless you sell it to us for $x.xx". They did this to Rubbermaid and the end result was that Rubbermaid went bankrupt.

As for the FDA, theyre a total joke, imho. After all, look at all of the foods, medical devices, and drugs that have been recalled recently due to high mortality rates.

 

[RsL]

Paladinx,

Didn't I read the other day that you were taking a leave of absence from our fine little forum here? haahaaa Just givin' you sheet man. Post away! For the record I've never had any issues with your thoughts/opinions!

 

[TropicalBob]

... where to begin ...

I'm not really insulted, but am blown away. So much verbiage over about 15 words or so, easily handled in one PM.

I'm not going to get into any kind of extended argument here, but will say this: I cannot create a sentence more understandable than the first one in the quote. Cannot. It is perfectly clear. It is not racist. It is just a fact as I see it. I will not try to reword the sentence. If someone can't understand it, take it to any high school English teacher.

However, Paladinx does get an A for this summary:

You took an educated risk and made a decision based on current facts and knowledge of the product. You choose to E-smoke because you believe the benefits will probably outweigh the cons in regards to cigarette cessation. At the same time you are a realist and acknowledge the concerns and unknowns of the device. The devices are not yet perfect and there are things that can be improved in regards to quality control and perhaps regulation. So while you vape with your health in mind, you will have the wisdom to know that part of what you do is not only based on knowledge or fact, but also an element based on faith. and u know what. That is a pretty damn realistic attitude to have...

Thanks to many here for the support shown in some posts.

... and where to end ...

 

[Tallgirl1974]

Are you bothered by the other thread with you name in it? You didn't seem to be. Or is it just because I started this one? I wasn't sarcastic or rude and clarified I wasn't calling you out. My question was completely sincere. Whatever. Its just not worth my time. I dont PM with people I dont know, thats weird.
And once again I get a non answer from you. You give non answers when people ask about your statements. Its not a debate to explain your statements, its not an argument, but you present your onions as facts ("just the facts as I see them") but then you wont clarify. I give up.

 

[Tallgirl1974]

"Food contamination China, and u will see that as bad as we are, at least we dont use industrial chemicals to make infant formulas and milk products that have killed many."

Every year about 76 million people in the U.S. get sick from contaminated food. People die from it here- from our meat, our veggies. We don't use chemicals to make infant formula? Thats all it is comprised of, man made chemicals lol

"and lastly your view is kind of contradicting itself in a way. You were very quick to bring up and use PG studies and reports when it had something positive to say in your favor, and kind of ridiculed me when I questioned some things. but now all of the evidence out there showing that china has major quality control and contamination problems are a conspiracy or misleading. or that u cannot believe anything type attitude. You seem to pick and chose what you want to believe in that suits you. And i believe bob tries to see all sides of the coin."

I poke fun at people, that's just how I am, you took it wrong, which is to be expected online I guess. Please quote me where I said there are no problems in china? You wont be able to, because I didn't say that. I'm sure I do contradict myself sometimes, the ecig contradicts itself all the time, but siting a study about PG truly doesn't correlate with the price of tea in china. Where is this major evidence that shows china has quality control and contamination problems? (I dont need evidence that its has quaility control issues, my atty just broke, but thats not just because its made in china, it because the owner of the company that made it in china is a cheap ........) The owner wont get any less cheap when the FDA approves the device.

 

[paladinx]

Food contamination is a problem in every country. But some have the problem worse than others. china is one of them. Google



i think Bob realized the second you made this thread. he asked you to PM him because he can tell your out for an argument, and you say "oh i dont PM strangers", while at the same time you say he trys to elude your questions. I think its starting to get obvious that you made this thread publically instead of messaging him because you wanted to fight with him the way you fight with me because he made perfect sense and it was not a 100 percent pro e-cig statement. So that really disturbed you. It is getting pretty evident that you are very bias and u are like an e-cig evangalistic crusader. you are better off messing with noobs like me tho who type too much and annoy the forum anyway then someone respectable here like tb.

 

[surbitonPete]

I am glad to see you are still posting Paladinx

 

[nitewriter]

I am glad to see you are still posting Paladinx

...Me too. This forum needs more people who know what they're talking about.

 

[paladinx]

yeah im sorry guys. I promise once these few remaining threads quiet down ill shut my mouth lol.. I tend to type too much. I mean I know that not everyone is going to agree with me, and that a lot of people here have more knowledge than me when it comes to this sort of thing. Plus there are people with the intelligence to make a solid point with far fewer words than i can. Something I have to work on.

 

[Tallgirl1974]

Food contamination is a problem in every country. But some have the problem worse than others. china is one of them. Google



i think Bob realized the second you made this thread. he asked you to PM him because he can tell your out for an argument, and you say "oh i dont PM strangers", while at the same time you say he trys to elude your questions. I think its starting to get obvious that you made this thread publically instead of messaging him because you wanted to fight with him the way you fight with me because he made perfect sense and it was not a 100 percent pro e-cig statement. So that really disturbed you. It is getting pretty evident that you are very bias and u are like an e-cig evangalistic crusader. you are better off messing with noobs like me tho who type too much and annoy the forum anyway then someone respectable here like tb.

This is quite funny stuff. He did *not ask me to PM him. You don't even know the guy, he is an illusion online, he could be some sicko for all you know..this in online after all! I wasn't even being ecig specific- I was wanting an intelligent conversation about china imports because it keeps being mentioned like its a bad word, when in reality the majority of the things in your hut will be from china or elsewhere.
I dont repect someone I dont know, thats odd. I dont PM with people- I find that a personal thing that needs to be invited not assumed.
Talk about being ecig evengalistic- I think some here are TB eveanglisic and dont question anything he says. "Oh hail someone stranger online. I give thee my respect because you say good stuff me likey."
Sheepish if you ask me.

 

[prof beard]

I was wanting an intelligent conversation about china imports because it keeps being mentioned like its a bad word, when in reality the majority of the things in your hut will be from china or elsewhere. .

China is not that much different (in terms of what it exports) from other countries. They build to a price and a market. The quality will be dependent on BOTH these things - those buying from China who care about their customers and reputation will exercise more influence on the manufacturer, who will in turn ensure those vendors get the quality they want at that price. Less fussy vendors will get the seconds and knock-offs.

This applies to most manufacturers world-wide - many western companies have been caught selling stuff to the third world they would get arrested for in their own countries - and will sell the quality that a given market demands.

As an aside, I only feel it fair to point out to many on here that "made in the USA" is NOT a byword for quality in the rest of the world... (and indeed in the USA itself judging from the number of German and Japanese cars I see whenever I visit your shores)

 

[Kit]

Tallgirl

Tropical Bob is a good man and he doesn't need to explain him self to you

there's no need to create a thread ....its silly to pull some one up like this..

ECF use to be such a close nit family ... it was an exciting place to be

the place has gone mad!

i feel sorry for the noobs it must be a nightmare.


KIT

 

[surbitonPete]

Some people come across as wanting to 'discuss' something with you and some people come across as just wanting to 'argue' about something with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

 

[Tallgirl1974]

Tallgirl

Tropical Bob is a good man and he doesn't need to explain him self to you

there's no need to create a thread ....its silly to pull some one up like this..

ECF use to be such a close nit family ... it was an exciting place to be

the place has gone mad!

i feel sorry for the noobs it must be a nightmare.


KIT

It is a nightmare- cant you make a group for your close nit family and post there? Otherwise the noobs get tired of being bashed for asking the family members a question without it being totally taken out of context as a "calling someone out" or "pull someone up?"
There is another thread that has his name in it- did you also tell that person they shouldn't have asked TB anything or they are silly or that he doesn't need to explain anything to them? Or, I get it, the person who put his name in that title is part of the family?
I'm not in the "general posting area" asking a question about ecigs being imported from china- people are asking people to clarify their statements all over this forum and I am pretty much sick of trying to clarify my intent as the same.

 

[Tallgirl1974]

Some people come across as wanting to 'discuss' something with you and some people come across as just wanting to 'argue' about something with you.

And I am doing both. lol
If I changed the name of the thread (can I do that?) can we discuss the china thing? Or will the bashing of me continue? Because I am the first to admit- I am defensive.

 

[Tallgirl1974]

China is not that much different (in terms of what it exports) from other countries. They build to a price and a market. The quality will be dependent on BOTH these things - those buying from China who care about their customers and reputation will exercise more influence on the manufacturer, who will in turn ensure those vendors get the quality they want at that price. Less fussy vendors will get the seconds and knock-offs.

This applies to most manufacturers world-wide - many western companies have been caught selling stuff to the third world they would get arrested for in their own countries - and will sell the quality that a given market demands.

As an aside, I only feel it fair to point out to many on here that "made in the USA" is NOT a byword for quality in the rest of the world... (and indeed in the USA itself judging from the number of German and Japanese cars I see whenever I visit your shores)

Thank you for your input.
We americans assume if its made in the USA its better quality. The FDA does not care about quality, it can be shoddy as long as its within our "guidelines." It comes down to money, making more of it. Being FDA approved matters nadda to you (I assume?) so what do you feel is needed to make them(PVs) safer?

 

[prof beard]

Thank you for your input.
We americans assume if its made in the USA its better quality. The FDA does not care about quality, it can be shoddy as long as its within our "guidelines." It comes down to money, making more of it. Being FDA approved matters nadda to you (I assume?) so what do you feel is needed to make them(PVs) safer?

What your FDA think matters not one monkey's backside to me personally. What matters with all these things is EVIDENCE.

Apart from some level of commonsense (like childproof juice bottles) needed here and there what evidence is there of a lack of safety. The contents of eJuice have been analysed by perfectly respectable organisations and have not been found to be worrying beyond what is already known.

Studies on the effects of vaping are needed, but not from a "ban it until proved safe" perspective, because what IS known would indicate that all sensible probabilities indicate that vaping is safer than smoking.

I am in principle opposed to the "make people safe from themselves" ethos, because real safety comes from education and people taking responsibility for their own actions.