Read this! Tuesday: Halo start first lawsuit against FDA, Debate in the UK House of Lords

[StormFinch]

That information was posted in response to this - it was not posted as the attorney handling their case.

But, but, that was to someone else... I think...

Too many thoughts going on. *sigh*

In a nutshell:

Halo is the same entity as Nicopure.

Halo, aka Nicopure, has their own full time general counsel, who also happens to sit on the board of Vapor Technology Association.

Halo hired a high power, outside law firm, Covington & Burling, to fight this particular battle, rather than utilize their general counsel.

There, are we all on the same page now?

 

[skoony]

I am speaking of the actual wording in the documents which will play a big part in the suit that was filed.

When the actual words spell out what was always intended and acknowledged
to happen there is really no excuse. Even Casaa's assessment after the proposed deeming regs
were released for comment stated 99.9% of the industry would be eliminated. They posted this
on there website within days of the release of the proposed deeming regs. almost 2 years ago.
To prepare for the unknown and the known is easy when given a clue. In the military it's
called contingency planning. In civilian life it's called plan for the worst,hope for the best.
if I could anticipate the outcome those people supposedly smarter than me should have made
it look like a piece of cake.

I have taken a lot of guff the last two years for saying what has happened now
was going to happen. Many others here have had the same experience. Casaa and
the SFATA were both ridiculed for being doom and gloommers just as some of us here
were. What is needed now is action not,reflection and consultation.

It's time to lead,follow or,get out of the way.
Regards
mike

 

[Daddy]

But, but, that was to someone else... I think...

Too many thoughts going on. *sigh*

In a nutshell:

Halo is the same entity as Nicopure.

Halo, aka Nicopure, has their own full time general counsel, who also happens to sit on the board of Vapor Technology Association.

Halo hired a high power, outside law firm, Covington & Burling, to fight this particular battle, rather than utilize their general counsel.

There, are we all on the same page now?

Yes, this is what I have gathered from this conversation as well.

Still does not explain why some feel that the costs are going to be high. The argument does not appear any stronger to me regardless of who is making it. I still suspect their legal bill will be under $10,000 and their profit from the filing will be much greater. I would not be surprised to see this case tossed out at the first opportunity.

 

[salemgold]

But, but, that was to someone else... I think...

Too many thoughts going on. *sigh*

In a nutshell:

Halo is the same entity as Nicopure.

Halo, aka Nicopure, has their own full time general counsel, who also happens to sit on the board of Vapor Technology Association.

Halo hired a high power, outside law firm, Covington & Burling, to fight this particular battle, rather than utilize their general counsel.

There, are we all on the same page now?

I know. I apologize for the facepalm. I am getting too frustrated to even be in these threads for awhile. Nothing personal at all though. More frustrated with the situation.

What you just posted was the point that I was making to another poster here.

 

[StormFinch]

Yes, this is what I have gathered from this conversation as well.

Still does not explain why some feel that the costs are going to be high. The argument does not appear any stronger to me regardless of who is making it. I still suspect their legal bill will be under $10,000 and their profit from the filing will be much greater. I would not be surprised to see this case tossed out at the first opportunity.

No idea about the case, but I think what's trying to be put across is that the law firm Halo hired, Covington & Burling, charges closer to 10k for a consultation and does this kind of thing for a living, not just as a defense for one particular business. If they can't set up a defensible argument then they don't deserve the reputation they've built.

 

[Daddy]

No idea about the case, but I think what's trying to be put across is that the law firm Halo hired, Covington & Burling, charges closer to 10k for a consultation and does this kind of thing for a living, not just as a defense for one particular business. If they can't set up a defensible argument then they don't deserve the reputation they've built.

Perhaps. Mind you $10,000 was an arbitrary number pulled out of thin air. The point was that Halo likely profits more from this move then they loose in legal fees.

Attorney's will more often then not take a case based on financial reasons rather than merit. I am sure Covington & Burling has taken cases they knew had little chance of success.

But I am happy to support them buy purchasing some juice, something I have not done in nearly a year.

 

[puffon]

Perhaps. Mind you $10,000 was an arbitrary number pulled out of thin air. The point was that Halo likely profits more from this move then they loose in legal fees.

Attorney's will more often then not take a case based on financial reasons rather than merit. I am sure Covington & Burling has taken cases they knew had little chance of success.

But I am happy to support them buy purchasing some juice, something I have not done in nearly a year.

So what you are saying is, Halo filed the law suit as a stunt to increase profits?

 

[absoluttalent]

The not selling to children part is pretty simple and most of us (all?) would support it. Of course the anti-vaping lobby wants you to think that ecig vendors are actively trying to hook children; they will say the lawsuits are about getting kids addicted to nicotine. Truth is most gas stations ID me if I try to buy some ....ty gas station e-liquid, despite not being required to by law.

Every shop I have been to has the 18+ signs posted. I have even been to a few that actively carded and turned away kids because "i forgot my id". I believe its also related to my state passing the 18+ rule with vaping
Illinois: Teenagers Caught Vaping Will Be Fined - Vapor News

The taxes I am very strongly opposed to. Like cigarettes, the tax will start off modest, and slowly increase. A pack of cigarettes is $10 where I live, and worse in some places. The only tax I would support is the standard state sales tax, as most everything is covered by that..

I am opposed to ALL taxes. Currently the prices near me are $9-11 a pack (Crook county.... ahem Cook county, Chicago) But in all honesty, taxes are necessary.
Saying not to tax the vape gear is just a pipe dream. If all this FDA stuff gets swept away, this is the next step from the politicians. They are not going to lose their slice of the pie.
Previously they wanted to tax $.75 per ml, then i believe they dropped it to $.45. You would be paying more in taxes for a 30ml bottle of gas station juice than the juice itself cost!
Like I said, Im reasonable. $2 tax per bottle is reasonable. $13.50 is not reasonable

 

[StormFinch]

Perhaps. Mind you $10,000 was an arbitrary number pulled out of thin air. The point was that Halo likely profits more from this move then they loose in legal fees.

Attorney's will more often then not take a case based on financial reasons rather than merit. I am sure Covington & Burling has taken cases they knew had little chance of success.

But I am happy to support them buy purchasing juice from them, something I have not done in nearly a year.

If Halo's plan is to just strain off the next 2 years profits then they could've just used their own legal counsel, but they didn't and they've also installed expensive equipment to handle their liquid production. That's not the sign of someone who plans on folding in the near future. With the way the regs look at this moment, Halo might, might get a single juice through PMTA, and even that's suspect with the FDA. They turn down PMTAs for dessert.

And no, typically lawyers like Covington & Burling don't take cases they don't think they can win. Being a firm that big ain't just about the money, it's about the ego.

 

[StormFinch]

I know. I apologize for the facepalm. I am getting too frustrated to even be in these threads for awhile. Nothing personal at all though. More frustrated with the situation.

What you just posted was the point that I was making to another poster here.

It's okay Salem, it's all craziness. Feels like we've suddenly entered some bizzaro world despite the hints that we knew it was coming.

 

[DaveOno]

I could imagine the lawyer's hourly rate to be $400/hr. And ten large only buys 25 hours. With the consultation, drafting and filing, I would guess they are past 25 hours. And it has just begun.

If Halo fails at this lawsuit, they will perish. A few months of bumped profits won't amount to a rodent's posterior when faced with what they are facing.

 

[crxess]

Halo is doing the right thing ... hopefully others will join them soon.

Their response is obviously done by lawyers who would be up to speed on what they face ... they would have poured over the regs several times the second they were released. They likely had prepared responses for several of the key points we all knew would be there.

Team Halo for the win

View attachment 553443

I don't think there is a Wrong thing so long as it is Civil Action and not infighting rather than FDA opposition.

Better to Make the FDA immediately aware we are not going away without a fight and are willing to fight to the bitter end if necessary.

 

[StormFinch]

I could imagine the lawyer's hourly rate to be $400/hr. And ten large only buys 25 hours. With the consultation, drafting and filing, I would guess they are past 25 hours. And it has just begun.

If Halo fails at this lawsuit, they will perish. A few months of bumped profits won't amount to a rodent's posterior when faced with what they are facing.

Good possibility they would perish anyway with the regs written the way they are. Might as well go for broke and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[WillyZee]

apparently Saul Goodman was busy ... went with Covington & Burling instead

Team Halo for the win

 

[phephner]

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: First Lawsuit Filed Challenging FDA Deeming Regulations

 

[440BB]

There is only one company or organization that has ponied up the funds to prepare for and immediately challenge this, when time is of the essence. This litigation can easily run into many hundreds of thousands of dollars and to minimize it is ludicrous. If it was relatively inexpensive, others would have already done so.

 

[paulw2014]

Halo must've done a cost/benefit analysis and decided that for less than one bs FDA premarketing application cost, they could sue instead. Given that Halo has many products, it's a good move, hardly surprising. What is surprising is the speed at which it occurred.

 

[Robino1]

In response to those that wonder how Halo could get their lawyers up to speed so soon. From the blog that SalemGold posted: Desk of the General Counsel: Deeming Rule | Halo Blog

Under the very last section:

In the meantime, read the Tobacco Control Act carefully, as all provisions referencing tobacco products will apply to vaping products. Relevant FDA links here:

I think they knew that it would be following the regulations that are in place for tobacco. Sounds like they studied the TCA very carefully.

 

[Duckling]

The taxes I am very strongly opposed to. Like cigarettes, the tax will start off modest, and slowly increase. A pack of cigarettes is $10 where I live, and worse in some places. The only tax I would support is the standard state sales tax, as most everything is covered by that.

You are exactly right. Here in Australia the government increases the tax on cigarettes most years. In the federal budget that was released last week, they announced they will continue to increase tax on tobacco by 12.5% every year for the next 3 years, which will take the cost of a packet of cigarettes to $40.

Ten years ago when I started smoking, a packet of cigarettes in Australia cost $10.

The government doesn't even pretend it's in the interest of public health anymore. They openly acknowledge the tobacco tax is being increased to raise revenue for government spending.

 

[vaporgalinfla]

I know. I apologize for the facepalm. I am getting too frustrated to even be in these threads for awhile. Nothing personal at all though. More frustrated with the situation.

What you just posted was the point that I was making to another poster here.

I understand; I am frustrated beyond what I can even explain!