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UK Regulation of E-Cigs - Petition

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ckc

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Jul 3, 2009
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Hello all,
New to forum posting but not vaping.So please be gentle with me. Hope Ive posted in right place

Brief history . 35 a day habit spanning 20+ years coupled with a 15-20 piece gum a day supplement for 10+ years.( funny how you can only be truthful with yourself about how many you smoke until after you have stopped )
Tried vaping Nov 2008 primarily to cut out the gum habit. Totally tobacco and gum free December 2008 – was a shock to me as well.
Christmas 2009 – made a concerted effort to cut out/down the nicotine. Currently down to around 2mg with menthol crystals. though still enjoy creating plumes of vapour.

Apologies for all the questions but I am trying to formulate my MLX response with out appearing too emotive.

Just to clarify if Ive got things right. please correct me If I am wrong

MHRA have decided to try and classify nicotine containing products as medicinal / pharmaceutical in nature . Whether or not this is from pressure from Big Pharma , Big Tobacco,pushing buttons in the government, time will tell.

They (MHRA) have offered 3 choices in their consultation document.
1 - Its a medicine,
2 - Its a medicine ,
3 - It is not a medicine

So already its a loaded vote of 2:3 in favour of it being a medicine.
I personally would have assumed they initial consultation would have tried to prove guilt first then pass sentence if guilty.

Thus for many (including myself) option 3 would be ideal solution and end to the matter, for the time being though do not count out further legislation as to "nicotine concentrations allowed for human use", bottle sizes, etc bought in by trading standards.- but thats for another day.

If the loaded vote works in the MHRA's favour would I be right in assuming the following.

The MHRA have only given 1 definite timescale of 21 days for option 1. Option 2, has no timescale, but could in theory be as little as 22 days. ie longer than option 1.

Suppliers would need Marketing Authorities (MA) to continue selling their products. and the MA is the safety certificate of a whole host of phased clinincal trials. - the costs of which are incurred by the applicant(s).

The clinical trials would have to cover all the variations of the e-liquids. ie strength, flavours, packaging ,dosage and dosage control . This could take many years couldn't it? ( eg just phase III trials on humans can vary from 3 months to several years)

Nicotine would be classed as the main active ingredient. ( different flavourings could also introduce extra active ingredients)
and with nicotine being both toxic and addictive in nature and with current e-liquid strengths could the MHRA actually then even classify it as presciption only?

Ive got a whole lot of other queries but currently at anger in the Kübler-Ross Cycle.

Advance thank yous
 

watfordjc

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Mar 31, 2009
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MHRA have decided to try and classify nicotine containing products as medicinal / pharmaceutical in nature .

That's pretty much the issue. At the moment they only have the authority over products that make health claims.

What they want to do is classify everything that contains nicotine (excluding tobacco products) as medicines even if they don't make health claims. Paragraphs 13, 14, and 15 (MLX 364) is where most of that is covered.

They (MHRA) have offered 3 choices in their consultation document.
1 - Its a medicine,
2 - Its a medicine ,
3 - It is not a medicine

So already its a loaded vote of 2:3 in favour of it being a medicine.
I personally would have assumed they initial consultation would have tried to prove guilt first then pass sentence if guilty.

Technically, 2:1 or 2/3, but that's me nit-picking on something that isn't important.

Using the precautionary principle, they don't need scientific proof that something is harmful if there is a cause of concern about its safety. Paragraphs 15, 16, 17, and 18 (MLX 364) give their reasoning: "quality, safety, and/or efficacy".

Thus for many (including myself) option 3 would be ideal solution and end to the matter, for the time being though do not count out further legislation as to "nicotine concentrations allowed for human use", bottle sizes, etc bought in by trading standards.- but thats for another day.

Option 3 is misleading. Some manufacturers and suppliers have already removed anything that may be mistaken as a health claim from their sites. The MHRA already have the authority over products that make health claims.

The Poisons Act, General Product Safety legislation, consumer protection legislation (Sale of Goods Act, Distance Selling regulations, etc), and other legislation should already cover all e-liquid and devices. Instead of testing any e-liquid themselves, they cite the FDA's "test" as a reason for all nicotine products to go through medicine licensing to ensure "safety".

If the loaded vote works in the MHRA's favour would I be right in assuming the following.

The MHRA have only given 1 definite timescale of 21 days for option 1. Option 2, has no timescale, but could in theory be as little as 22 days. ie longer than option 1.

Yes, although they do give a year as a suggested time-scale for Option 2.

Suppliers would need Marketing Authorities (MA) to continue selling their products. and the MA is the safety certificate of a whole host of phased clinincal trials. - the costs of which are incurred by the applicant(s).

...

Nicotine would be classed as the main active ingredient. ( different flavourings could also introduce extra active ingredients)
and with nicotine being both toxic and addictive in nature and with current e-liquid strengths could the MHRA actually then even classify it as presciption only?

I've only skimmed through the procedure of medicine legislation in the UK, but it did look like it is the main 'active' ingredient in a medicine that counts. I've tried to get my head around "pharmaceutical equivalence" but would prefer the MHRA or someone to actually explain it to me.

Assuming varied dosages (e.g. nicotine strength) would be considered the same medicine, and different mixes and flavours are pharmaceutically equivalent, it is possible that the e-cig industry only requires one MA that covers all e-liquid, and all the other manufacturers only need a manufacturers license and a generic/piggy-back license.

The problem with that, however, is whether something that is pharmaceutically equivalent needs to undergo tests and trials to prove it has the same effect.

I don't see e-cigs or e-liquid becoming prescription only, or at least not on NHS prescription. My GP would rather I vaped than started smoking again so he'd make sure I was able to get enough liquid (and I can't see any doctor wanting to sign scripts for a third of their patients every week).

Also, a pre-payment certificate for £104.00 gives unlimited prescriptions for a year. I can't see us getting e-liquid for 2 quid a week being economical at all.

As for nicotine being addictive and toxic, there are plenty of medicines already authorised that are addictive (and can kill if someone O/Ds on them).

The clinical trials would have to cover all the variations of the e-liquids. ie strength, flavours, packaging ,dosage and dosage control . This could take many years couldn't it? ( eg just phase III trials on humans can vary from 3 months to several years)

Unfortunately my knowledge is severely limited in this area. I did see a figure somewhere that the average cost of getting a medicine to market is $359 million, though.


John.
 

watfordjc

Full Member
Mar 31, 2009
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One solution that would make everyone happy would be a two-tier level of regulation for electronic cigarettes and e-liquid.

1) Current products on the market: relative safety compared to smoking tobacco.
2) Future approved medicines: certified as being as safe as possible.

I think the Department of Health and MHRA in their need to include electronic cigarettes in their harm reduction strategy caused them to want to force licensing on the manufacturers instead of offering help and advice to those that would like to go down that route.

Most vapers trust the manufacturers of their devices and liquid do have adequate procedures in place to prevent contamination of toxic substances and decent quality control. We're also fine with something "relatively safer" than smoking without requiring proof of safety.

Because they are concerned about quality and safety not being guaranteed or each batch being tested for composition, they can't protect our health from an unknown or recommend an electronic cigarette to a current smoker.

Doesn't matter that most smokers know smoking will kill them, nor that most vapers know that smoking may have already done too much damage to them.

One thing I've wondered is what is stopping the NHS from creating their own electronic cigarette and e-liquid? Or even outsourcing it? It's not like our Government hasn't bought banks or done PPP before. Quality would be covered, safety could be monitored, and efficacy could easily be tested by trialling it in a couple of PCTs. No need to kill off the competition when you can buy in bulk and undercut everyone else, at least we'll have the option to buy something else if we hate the flavour or the atomizers are crap.


John.
 

ckc

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John , i seriously doubt that any 2 - tier regulation is ever going to happen. Reading the EU documents basically if anyone gets an E-cig and/or liquid to be classed as medical then the rest have NO choice but to fall under the same regulation and i guess once one does that includes all member states. Once you get the MA in the UK it basically covers the EU too.

A hammer is a hammer is a hammer.

So 1 E-Cig becomes medical all the others get painted with the same brush and they would all have to have MA 's.

If i was a large UK supplier i'd be finding a lab.....yesterday!

It's great that groups like Ash UK see E-Cigs in a good light.....but they still want it regulating.

I still haven't wrote my letter to the consultation....still sat on the fence.

Come June, i'll be stocked up....then theres always cigs :rolleyes:


My 9 year old wanted to know why i have so many bottles,when explaining the current situation he said 'thats mad,normal cigs cause pollution and cancer and e-cigs don't,stupid government'.....i vote for my son!
 
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deewal

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What liquid and E-Cig do you use ckc if you don't mind me asking ?
Your right about the statement
So 1 E-Cig becomes medical all the others get painted with the same brush and they would all have to have MA 's.
but i don't think we are going to get anything except Option 1. The Response form is'nt even worth filling in because they are not e-mails where you can ask for a receipt. If you fill it in online the only people who know they've got it is them.It's amazing how votes can "go missing" these days. I'll just keep vaping until i've run out of Liquid. Then i'll buy the moonshine and if they wan't to put me in prison they can because i won't be paying any fine. We are dealing with a corrupt organization who have been bought by Big Pharma and an equally Corrupt Government (choose any Party you like) who's MP's wlill all "buy" into Money Stream. If 1 E-Cig supplier chooses to join that wheel of corruption i would'nt be buying any of it's stuff anyway and i also think that once that 1 supplier has served the MHRA's purposes they will be disposed of. The Goverment do not give a frack about our health. They want us to Smoke Cigarettes. They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them.
 
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ckc

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Hi Deewal,

Not at all, i have the GG, i use TW's multi-pack atties, i buy my juice from several vendors home and abroad,TW-ice,Health-Cabin,E-Cigs outlet etc I don't stick to any particular 'outlet' for juice.

Your right the govenment don't give a hoot about our health or jobs, in one document i read it stated that there would only be a loss of 12,000 jobs in the UK tobacco industry if they basically shut it down :shock: (not that they have plans to do that...yet)

So they're not going to care about a couple of thousand in the UK E-Cig industry.
 
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dunkbull

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Mar 8, 2010
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So we can basically expect the new Nicorette electronic cigarette to hit the markets in the Uk this summer can we? I'm guessing it will be the size of a rolling pin, cost £120 for the basic kit and refills will be about twice the price of fags. Plus it wont work half as well as existing technology.

On the plus side - it will be "approved".


Hmmm
 

igetcha

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Nov 9, 2008
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www.E-Cig-Reviews.com
I see ebay have already announced they are banning the sale of all electronic cigarettes and their components and supplies on the 30th of June in the UK.

Cant post the link as I havent made 15 posts yet.

You'll find it if you google it, the article is on tamebay

D
hi mate,

they have been banned from ebay for a long time now. are you sure the acrticle didnt say 30th of june 2009 rather than 2010?
 
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