Updated!! Pennsylvania: 40% tax = game over for vape

[RayBone1215]

This tax I bet can be tied back to Lancaster county PA which is the tobacco growing capital of PA.

 

[MikeE3]

This tax I bet can be tied back to Lancaster county PA which is the tobacco growing capital of PA.

And most of it is grown by the Amish and Mennonites ... I doubt they are very political.

 

[RayBone1215]

And most of it is grown by the Amish and Mennonites ... I doubt they are very political.

You're right, but even so they still pay tax on what they sell and they do sell what they grow and if those sales are being affected by people who are quitting by way of vaping like I and probably millions of others have they most likely would want to put a stop to that any way they could and a 40% tax on everything vaping is one hell of a way of hurting something that for the most part has done more good than bad.

 

[SamL]

What about the non-nicotine vapers? this is ....ing stupid...

 

[TravelinGirl]

What about the non-nicotine vapers? this is ....ing stupid...

It's called greed and control SamL.

 

[zoiDman]

tyr·an·ny

/tirənē/

noun
noun: tyranny; plural noun: tyrannies

1. cruel and oppressive government or rule.
   "people who survive war and escape tyranny"
   synonyms: despotism, absolute power, autocracy, dictatorship, totalitarianism, Fascis

"a nation under cruel and oppressive government."

cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

"she resented his rages and his tyranny"

 

[swampergene]

According to the act, ANY fluid used for the purpose of vaping is subject to the 40% wholesale tax. Doesn't matter what ingredients are used.

 

[cllmda]

Not without a Federal court order they wouldn't. Just try to get any store to give you their customer mailing list.. and good luck!!! It would take YEARS.

Unfortunately, this is not true. They do it with tobacco cigarettes here. People have received large tax bills due after the fact from ordering mail order cigs. The ATF requires the vendors to give up the records, and they are forwarded to the states.

.

Exactly, Iron Molly.... !!!!

 

[cllmda]

Living in the Detroit area is looking better and better.

For now. Tick tock.

I hate seeing what is happening with vaping and the states. Many feared the FDA. I feared both the states and the FDA but many would hear none of it.

Now that it is happening, people are ...... and they should be.

I have never gotten involved with the political back and forth on this forum. I sat back and let others pass it back and forth. I knew politically, vaping was in trouble.

When the deemings came out, I saw many begin the stock up process.

I was around during the FDA court cases and Judge Leon stating it was a tobacco product not drug delivery devices.

When vaping was 'labeled' something other than what it is...VAPING.. I knew we were in trouble I just did not know when it would happen.

If it had been labeled a drug delivery device, we were up the backside.

If it was labeled a tobacco product, we were up the backside.

I knew, politically, it would never be simply 'vaping.'

It would be either a pharmaceutical or a tobacco product. Too much to lose for it not to be 'labeled' one of these two things.

Many are now getting into the I am for Trump, I am for Clinton discussions. ALL based on vaping and which one would take the best course, in their mind, as far as their vape goes.

Some now say they will not vote for Trump because of his VP choice and his stance in Indiana on Vaping.

A few months ago, yeah, I would have voted with vaping on my mind. NOW, with all the terrorist attacks going on, my thought process has changed.

I have just lost some that were very dear to me in the latest attack. I lost 3 very near and dear on 9/11.

This latest attack and loss has jolted me back to reality here.

I can no longer light a candle, show my support and move on with it. I can no longer have the thought of, it want happen here. IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED HERE and I still fell back into that thought mode.

My stance now is, if I were to go to vote today, vaping would be the last thing on my mind.

I have let my nic need/addiction take control of my thoughts etc where elections/politics are concerned.

I was mad at what they are doing to vaping and I had the mentality of, vote them all out.

Now, with the terror going on, my mentality has been brought back to reality.

It does not matter what mod, tank, flavor, mg of juice or how much it cost me...THAT vape set up in my hand will not protect me from being gunned down, blown to bits or plowed down as if I were a wild animal standing at a event.

I have come to realize the past few days, I MYSELF can control my nic need/addiction.

It was MY choice to begin using nic in the first place 30+ years ago.

Nic delivery I can take control of and keep myself going with the LUXURY of getting my nic fix.

I can stock up if I wish, I mean, we knew this was coming. I can protect myself from the taxes if I wish to do so.

My friends did not have the chance to protect themselves from a terrorist plowing them down on a sidewalk/street a few days ago.

THEY HAD NO CHOICE. With vaping I do have the choice. Stock up or pay the taxes to continue my LUXURY in life.

I call it a luxury because I have an addiction. But then, if I were not addicted, I would be vaping low mg for health reasons as well.

For my health reasons, if I did not have vaping, I would NOT go back to smoking. I would use snus instead.

BUT, my addiction is worse than the health so therefore, I consider it a luxury. I could easily use all natural supplements, bypassing pharmaceuticals, for the health issues if need be.

I realize others can not/will not take this path for health conditions. That is their choice. My post here is MY choice.

Yes, my mentality has changed.

Vaping is not EVERYTHING in my life and during these times with all that is happening, I have been slapped with reality.

At this point, I will not be voting with vaping anywhere in the equation when it comes time to vote.

What I will be voting on is, will Trump help keep me and my loved ones safe from terrorist or will Clinton.

Being that Clinton did not protect our Ambassador or others, lied about it and covered things up to save her own backside. Add to the fact that she wants to let even more refugees into this country than Obama without a STRONG vetting system in place, I have little doubt Clinton will keep me and my loved ones safe.

Trump..I have no experience with his actions as far as terrorists go. I know he has a bold take no &&&%# attitude. That I have seen.

My vaping, government can stay out of that and I can make my own decisions. I do not need the government to protect me with that, I can do it myself.

Terrorists.... I can not protect myself and loved ones from this. I have to rely on a good strong leader in Government for this.

Sure I vape and I vote but vaping will not keep me and my loved ones safe from terrorists.

Sorry... but neither Trump nor Clinton (same for any gov or presidential candidate unfortunately...) can keep you safe from terrorist attacks

So please dont make your choice/vote based on that premise...?

 

[swampergene]

Regarding driving out of state to buy supplies, section 1207A in it's entirety makes doing so a criminal offense. First, earlier in the Article they define any tobacco product that has not had the 40% tax paid on it as "contraband". Later, in 1207A they spell out the fines for any "person" who possesses any product that has not had the proper tax paid and they aren't pretty, carrying the potential for $5K and jail time. How hard they'll enforce it remains to be seen, but if you get pulled over for a blown turn signal and you've go a full bag of goodies from a out of state vape shop on the front seat they've got enough to nail you.

This act is essentially PAs own deeming law too in regards to what "is" a tobacco product aw they make it clear that any part of a setup is in itself a tobacco product. And by definition it also makes all DIY products...liquids and mods...CONTRABAND.

As for buying online, you immediately become an "unclassified importer" and are required to file forms and pay the 40% tax for any product brought into the state. You can say "yeah sure" but remember electronic transaction records run deep, and they might not nail someone for a year but they'll get you for everything they can trace back to the effective date of the act.

This is all about their precious tax money, and every one of them that voted it in needs to go.

 

[RayBone1215]

Sorry... but neither Trump nor Clinton can keep you safe from terrorist attacks

So please dont make your choice/vote on that premise...?

Don't worry I'm not I'm voting for Clinton

 

[TravelinGirl]

Has anyone heard from Bill Godshall about this? If I missed it, please link me. I can only imagine what he has to say.

 

[ENAUD]

Regarding driving out of state to buy supplies, section 1207A in it's entirety makes doing so a criminal offense. First, earlier in the Article they define any tobacco product that has not had the 40% tax paid on it as "contraband". Later, in 1207A they spell out the fines for any "person" who possesses any product that has not had the proper tax paid and they aren't pretty, carrying the potential for $5K and jail time. How hard they'll enforce it remains to be seen, but if you get pulled over for a blown turn signal and you've go a full bag of goodies from a out of state vape shop on the front seat they've got enough to nail you.

This act is essentially PAs own deeming law too in regards to what "is" a tobacco product aw they make it clear that any part of a setup is in itself a tobacco product. And by definition it also makes all DIY products...liquids and mods...CONTRABAND.

As for buying online, you immediately become an "unclassified importer" and are required to file forms and pay the 40% tax for any product brought into the state. You can say "yeah sure" but remember electronic transaction records run deep, and they might not nail someone for a year but they'll get you for everything they can trace back to the effective date of the act.

This is all about their precious tax money, and every one of them that voted it in needs to go.

People think it's a joke when talking here on the forum, but for anyone unlucky enough to get caught in the cross hairs through whatever bad luck might befall them, it could be very real and extremely costly and life changing. It's the way it works for "other things". Many can go an entire life without a hiccup, but somebody somewhere is going to step in a pile of it, and woe be to those unfortunate souls.

The US has a long history of prejudicial punishments laid upon those who skirt the "sin taxes". The FDA just created another whole brand new game in town, and however each state responds is now the new wild wild west. Huge hoards of high mg/ml nicotine could very well become a liability in the very near future depending on locale and how your state handles the "newly deemed" tobacco products. It's something I thought about well before we got to this point in the game. It will get very real depending on where you live and what your representatives sign into law.

 

[Verb]

Regarding driving out of state to buy supplies, section 1207A in it's entirety makes doing so a criminal offense. First, earlier in the Article they define any tobacco product that has not had the 40% tax paid on it as "contraband". Later, in 1207A they spell out the fines for any "person" who possesses any product that has not had the proper tax paid and they aren't pretty, carrying the potential for $5K and jail time. How hard they'll enforce it remains to be seen, but if you get pulled over for a blown turn signal and you've go a full bag of goodies from a out of state vape shop on the front seat they've got enough to nail you.

This act is essentially PAs own deeming law too in regards to what "is" a tobacco product aw they make it clear that any part of a setup is in itself a tobacco product. And by definition it also makes all DIY products...liquids and mods...CONTRABAND.

As for buying online, you immediately become an "unclassified importer" and are required to file forms and pay the 40% tax for any product brought into the state. You can say "yeah sure" but remember electronic transaction records run deep, and they might not nail someone for a year but they'll get you for everything they can trace back to the effective date of the act.

This is all about their precious tax money, and every one of them that voted it in needs to go.

DIY is not by defult contraband. You might need to pay the tax on any ingrediants purchased after October. If for profit sale is not involved, DIY is not restricted.

 

[bnrkwest]

And most of it is grown by the Amish and Mennonites ... I doubt they are very political.

And most of it is grown by the Amish and Mennonites ... I doubt they are very political.

I lived in Lancaster for 16 yrs and the tobacco grown there is cigar tobacco and isn't cigar tobacco sliding under these tax laws in PA?

 

[Lessifer]

Has anyone heard from Bill Godshall about this? If I missed it, please link me. I can only imagine what he has to say.

He started this thread before it was passed Smokefree PA urges General Assembly to hike cigarette tax, but to NOT tax vapor or smokeless but I haven't seen anything from him since.

 

[rothenbj]

Let's face it, they went after a subset of a minority that they've been punishing for decades, the smoker. They really expect to push back since they've never gotten it in the past. They just threw another $1 a pack on the smokers without a whimper. Could you imagine the upheaval a sugary drink tax would have caused like they had in Philly?

The taxes had nothing to do with health or the diseases caused by smoking, it had to do with generating revenue and we've hurt that revenue stream so we're getting hit again. They don't seem to care if they lose 100s of businesses or thousands of jobs. The tax is more aggressive if you buy outside state. Remember it's a 40% wholesale tax to dealers, a 40% retail sales plus shipping and handling tax on individuals. How they go about collecting that tax and enforcing their regulation will be interesting.

What I find interesting is the tax on hardware. If I buy batteries for my flashlights it's one cost. If I buy the same batteries for my APV I have to pay 40% more. A thought just hit me, if I buy vapor supplies from a vendor that collects PA sales taxes, do I pay the 40% on the product plus S&H and the sales tax. Plus, if they don't collect the sales tax, am I required to pay PA sales taxes on top of the 40%.

Boy look how they felt about the taxes on tea in Boston some time ago.

 

[CMD-Ky]

To the same end, back in my self-employment days, I would fail to take small but rather obvious deductions for my occupation. Kentucky attempts to collect tax on internet purchases and a declaration $0 is fodder for the Revenue Cabinet.

I do not think it would be cost effective for them to do that in the case of individuals. However the red flag for this is a $0 on line 25 of your PA-40, or a $0 on the use tax section of your PA Sales & Use tax return if you own a business. I made that mistake and it resulted in the pleasure of a week-long full audit of the Sales & Use tax accounting for my business back in 2008. They left me with a bill for about $5k in back Use taxes, plus about $1k in interest/penalties.

Anyway, the reason I say it wouldn't be cost-effective for individuals is that 6% (or 7% if you live in Pittsburgh or Philly) of whatever you've spent on out of state purchases of vape gear in the past simply would not pay for the manpower required to do such audits.

Online purchases of cigarettes and big-ticket items that the feds have records of are a different matter. In the case of cigarettes, that $1.60 a pack in excise tax adds up fast, and when the ATF forces vendors to give up their records, it's easy enough for the Commonwealth to send you a bill for back taxes.

Anyway, I can't stress this strongly enough: Never claim that you owe them $0 in use taxes. Always pay them something. Almost everybody buys some stuff on the internet from out-of-state vendors who don't charge PA Sales Tax. They know this, and claiming $0.0 is like waving a red flag in front of an angry bull.

 

[Oliver]

Update from CASAA: CASAA: PA - Take action to oppose a 40 percent wholesale tax on vapor products.

**Pennsylvania Update**

Article 12-A of HB 1198 -- the revenue portion of Pennsylvania's 2017 budget -- is a death warrant. The tax imposed is so high, so sudden, and so poorly considered that few vapor retailers are likely to survive. There is no loophole or bright side for consumers either. In fact, the state has managed to criminalize possession of vapor products for which the tax has not been paid.

This is, without a doubt, one of, if not the, worst pieces of vapor tax legislation we have seen. Pennsylvania will not collect the estimated amount of revenue expected from this tax and will harm hundreds of thousands of PA residents in the process.

 

[Katmar]

Update from CASAA: CASAA: PA - Take action to oppose a 40 percent wholesale tax on vapor products.

**Pennsylvania Update**

Article 12-A of HB 1198 -- the revenue portion of Pennsylvania's 2017 budget -- is a death warrant. The tax imposed is so high, so sudden, and so poorly considered that few vapor retailers are likely to survive. There is no loophole or bright side for consumers either. In fact, the state has managed to criminalize possession of vapor products for which the tax has not been paid.

This is, without a doubt, one of, if not the, worst pieces of vapor tax legislation we have seen. Pennsylvania will not collect the estimated amount of revenue expected from this tax and will harm hundreds of thousands of PA residents in the process.