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Using Citric Acid in DIY

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by ChelsB, Dec 9, 2017.

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  1. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    This is a Handy Item to have...

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Yeah... Even at a Low Settings, sometimes you can get a Hot Spot on the side of a Bottle.

    Hot Water Bath is the Way to Go sometimes.
     
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  3. classwife

    classwife Admin
    Asst Classifieds Mgr
    Ask The Vets Mgr
    Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    ...for soap you put the CA in a bowl and then add boiling water to dissolve it...*shrug*
     
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  4. ChelsB

    ChelsB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 12, 2016
    California
    Probably a silly question: does it harm the pH meter if it’s not fully dry before the cap is put back on? Mines been drying for a while but it’s difficult to tell if it’s fully dried...
     
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  5. ChelsB

    ChelsB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Dec 12, 2016
    California
    Thanks for chiming in, Classy!
     
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  6. ChelsB

    ChelsB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 12, 2016
    California
    I like “small spinny thing”!
     
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  7. ChelsB

    ChelsB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 12, 2016
    California
    Nice little bonus from the seller: with positive reviews (which I gave as I was happy with their service) you get to pick a free gift. I chose a free 12 pack of the calibration powders. Amazon must really make it difficult on sellers if they get a low seller feedback score
     
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  8. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Mortar and pestle.

    The pestle can also be used to give the BEST back rub. :) Provided you know what you are doing. Hammer on the concrete outside and sturdy plastic bag will work as well.

    Oh, I HAVE some of that fancy kitchen machinery including a KitchenAid, but it all arrived with the husband. I was used to cooking with 20 year old cast off items for about 18 months in my mom's basement so I figured out how to do stuff "unconventionally".

    Anna

    ETA: too late.
     
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  9. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    I used 100g CA in a glass beaker with 100ml of PG.

    I put it on a magnetic stirrer for about 30 minutes, afterwards I had the same settling issues you have.

    I then heated the solution in the microwave using short 10 second bursts until the beaker felt hot to the touch. I put it back on the stirrer for another 30 minutes and it dissolved.

    Heat helps.

    upload_2018-1-29_6-47-47.png
     
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  10. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

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    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    So now you have a 1g/1ml CA/PG Solution.

    Does that then become the Entire "PG" component in your PG/VG e-Liquids?
     
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  11. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    ooooooooh Nooooo

    This become my CA concentrate that I then use to adjust the pH of a nic solution.

    I am only adding a few % (of recipe volume) of this mixture. I do it by pH so it isnt a fixed % but it is very little, less than what you might use for flavoring.
     
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  12. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

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    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    That is what I Figured.

    So why would a 1g/1ml Solution be needed? If it is Hard to get 1g of CA into 1ml of PG, wouldn't be Easier to get 1g of CA into 2ml of PG? Or Dissolve the CA into a little Water and then put it into a PG Solution?

    Or just make a CA/H2O solution?

    Or are you going for the 1g to 1ml CA/PG to make the Math Simpler?
     
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  13. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Good question.
    As water seems (my really lousy kitchen sink trials of PG, PGA, and H2O; as solvents) to be a better(?) solvent for CA; why not use that... unless one is trying to avoid any H2O introduction? (Given the minimal quantities required?)(I'm not trying to pick a quarrel; I genuinely want to know) Will distilled water, or PGA throw off "true" final pH results?
     
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  14. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

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    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    I don't know?

    Mainly because I Don't really know How Much CA is usually added to a given amount of e-Liquid to achieve some desired Result?

    Most people use more VG than PG in Finished e-Liquids. And Many who DIY using High VG Percentages add a small amount of Water to help with Wicking. Seems like a CA/Water solution could be used.

    Or if you going for No Water, and are using say 5 Drops of 1g/1ml CA/PG solution to 30ml of Finished e-Liquid, you could 10 Drops of 1g/2ml CA/PG Solution if making 1g/2ml CA/PG is easier to make.

    Like I said (I think it was in this thread?), I don't add CA to my e-Liquids. Or even know what amounts of CA people are/have used that they like.
     
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  15. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    You can certainly use water.

    If you jump back to my first post on this topic I gave the link to my information source: Formerly Vermont Vapor, Inc. - Recipes
    which says
    Citric Acid Solution (06/2009)

    1 g Citric Acid USP (anhydrous)
    1 ml Distilled Water


    Heat water to above 120 deg. F., slowly add citric acid while stirring until all is dissolved and solution is clear (a very, very pale yellow).


    Vermont Vapors did indeed use water. I chose to use PG because I did NOT want to water down my recipes. A water solution would reduce the viscosity of your juice. Vermont Vapors used primarily VG so watering them down a little didnt hurt them. I use at least 50% PG if not more, and I didnt want to reduce the viscosity of my juice, its already thin enough, especially on hot days.
     
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  16. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Bumping my first post on this topic......



    Nic salts are smoother than regular nic. People use them just because they are smoother, or also to allow high nic strength without such a harsh hit. For example the Juul uses 50mg nic salts. Higher nic is good for folks who are just starting to get off the stinkies.

    Here is what I told the other member in my PM.

    I used the Vermont Vapors recipe as a base:
    Formerly Vermont Vapor, Inc. - Recipes

    https://www.amazon.com/Milliard-Citric-Acid-Pound-NON-GMO/dp/B00EYFKKZC/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1512756350&sr=8-4&keywords=citric+acid

    Only I used pg instead of distilled water, which was a lot harder dissolve, I had to heat it up some to finally get it all dissolved. I mixed 100g of CA with 100ml of PG, and then poured it into a bottle to use as an ingredient in mixes.

    What I have found is that the amount needed (expressed as a % in the juice recipe) varies depending on the strength (mgml) of the nic. I cant say just add X% to your juice. It differs on whether you are mixing 6mg or 24mg, etc.

    Where I finally landed was adding "as needed" and just drizzled it in while stirring until I achieved a certain ph level. Usually about 7.5ph. But you can go up or down from there. pH just proved to be the best way to adjust for varying nic strengths.

    Also, if you titrate your nic to validate strength, do it BEFORE you add the CA. Titration doesnt work on Nic salts. I will titrate my 100mg concentrate to validate (since I am starting with pure 99.9% undiluted nic and making my own 100mg nic), and then use that 100mg concentrate in my mixes and then add the CA until I achieve the proper pH.

    I just use a pH pen similar to this:
    https://www.amazon.com/Newdy-Aquarium-Hydroponics-0-00-14-00-Measurement/dp/B07217NV2Q/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1512757505&sr=8-8&keywords=pH+pen

    I bought a more high end one, but the above would work fine.
     
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  17. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

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  18. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    "The first test was almost the end of Vermont Vapor. I had ordered a small amount (less than four ounces) of l-nicotine from a large research chemical supplier. I had built a glove-box with polycarbonate and felt as prepared as I could be. The first batch of e-liquid “base” was mixed and bottled inside the glove box and I brought it to Linda's place for testing. It was perfect – only three ingredients: glycerin, water, and nicotine. It smelled horrible. Now it seems silly, but at the time we were sure that the whole batch was a failure and we would never be able to produce e-liquid. I'd searched online and there was nothing to help. However, on a lark I decided to visit our local college. There in the chemistry section, in a very old book, I found a discussion on the odor of nicotine and how it could be neutralized with acid. Armed with this, I proceeded to our local “natural foods” store and, sure enough, they sold bulk citric acid. With that and some ph testing supplies, I was able to bring the e-liquid to a neutral ph. Just for your information, what this did was to create a salt – nicotine citrate – that is one of the primary natural forms of nicotine in the tobacco plant. While it didn't eliminate all the odor and taste, it significantly reduced it and we were left with a usable product."
     
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  19. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

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    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Ok... So be it 1g/1ml CA/PG or 1g/1ml CA/H2O, the concentration of CA per Volume remains the same.

    I guess what I am looking for is some Quasi Equilibrium Relationship between CA and Nicotine.

    I don't seem to have a Frame of Reference of how much CA is being used for a given mg/ml of Nicotine.
     
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  20. Stoneface

    Stoneface Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2013
    New York
    So I have another stupid question...would there be any benefit to using a combination of DW and PG? Perhaps some PG could help with the viscosity?

    Would we need to make 2 solutions (1 CA in DW, 1 CA in PG) and then combine them? Or is it possible to add CA to a DW/PG solution?
     
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