Using Citric Acid in DIY

[Beamslider]

Don't think citric acid is going to lower throat hit. Might increase that. Will add tartness to the taste.

Citric Acid Solutions (5-15%) - Nude Nicotine
Citric Acid is one of the more common ingredients used to give eliquids their tart flavor. Our solution of citric acid is concentrated at 15% for ethyl alcohol (SUPER CONCENTRATE), 10% for PG (Industry standard), and at 5% in VG (PG-free). PG can attain a max solubility of ~100mg/mL (10% solution) of citric acid, while VG can only obtain ~55mg/mL. However, ethyl alcohol is suitable for very saturated solutions of ~150mg/mL and recommended for maximum citric acid solubility as a carrier solvent.

 

[mikepetro]

Without completely derailing this thread, @mikepetro....I am just beginning to look at nic salts for the smoothness factor. So, I hope you can help me with a couple of questions. How does smoothness of nic salts compare with regular nic at, say, 12mg/ml and lower? How does the smoothness of adding citric acid compare with the smoothness of nic salts in a juice of the same nic strength?

I hope that makes sense....

EDIT: In other words, I'm trying to decide why to add citric acid and/or why to try nic salts instead...

Cant really offer much opinion on lower nic levels. I vape 36mg. What I can say is comparing the same strength side by side, nic salts are a little smoother, less throat hit.

Adding CA does create a Nic salt. There are many vendors using different acids that also create nic salts. For example Juul uses benzoic acid. Apparently the acid converts some of the freebase nic to protonated nic.

Dr Kurt speaks to it better here:

Not a fan of benzoic acid inhalation myself. Don't know what it does in the lungs. Sodium benzoate is a preservative with anti-mold and anti-bacteria qualities, but it may be carcinogenic:

Sodium benzoate is a preservative that promotes cancer and kills healthy cells

I don't think it is the sodium ion that is the problem here, rather the benzoate ion, which will be formed in high quantities in a nicotine salt solution with benzoic acid. Thus I have been puzzled by the rather ubiquitous use of benzoic acid to make nic salt solutions. I would not use it myself.

Citric or ascorbic acid are two I would be more supportive of. Both very safe and ubiquitous in biology. Pyruvic acid is another that has been used in nic inhaling tech (Altria propellant device that never got to market), and should also be safe for the same reasons. At least as far as we understand inhaling these compounds. Vermont Vapor (now out of business, very sad) used citric acid to lower pH of their DIY nic solutions to remove the smell of nicotine in manufacturing. I don't think they ever called their nic a salt solution, but the pH was around 8.5, meaning that about half of the nic was protonated to salt form. A remarkable and excellent nic, very smooth, with a slower nic effect when inhaled. This seems to go along with the general reports of salt solutions, and the general effect that the salt form is more slowly absorbed than the free-base form orally and in the throat, where most of absorption occurs with low-wattage vaping.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Without completely derailing this thread, @mikepetro....I am just beginning to look at nic salts for the smoothness factor. So, I hope you can help me with a couple of questions. How does smoothness of nic salts compare with regular nic at, say, 12mg/ml and lower? How does the smoothness of adding citric acid compare with the smoothness of nic salts in a juice of the same nic strength?

I hope that makes sense....

EDIT: In other words, I'm trying to decide why to add citric acid and/or why to try nic salts instead...

Even at 3 mg I feel salts are smoother. I vape unflavored and would never add any acids to my juice. Sour juice? Thanks, but no.

 

[Stoneface]

Even at 3 mg I feel salts are smoother. I vape unflavored and would never add any acids to my juice. Sour juice? Thanks, but no.

Thanks, and agreed But some folks claim that adding the CA to recipes improves the smoothness of it, not necessarily eliminating throat hit.

So, now I'm wondering how much CA can you add to a recipe without distorting the flavors of said recipe while still smoothing out the vapor? Or maybe it only works in fruity/sweet vapes where the sourness can be masked by the other flavors in the recipe?

EDIT: I think I am over-thinking this...LOL

 

[mikepetro]

Even at 3 mg I feel salts are smoother. I vape unflavored and would never add any acids to my juice. Sour juice? Thanks, but no.

To my knowledge, all nic salts are made by adding some sort of acid.

It doesnt necessarily make it sour, however it can contribute to sour notes depending on your recipe.

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks, and agreed But some folks claim that adding the CA to recipes improves the smoothness of it, not necessarily eliminating throat hit.

So, now I'm wondering how much CA can you add to a recipe without distorting the flavors of said recipe while still smoothing out the vapor? Or maybe it only works in fruity/sweet vapes where the sourness can be masked by the other flavors in the recipe?

Its all about the pH, keep track of your pH as you experiment with different flavors. Flavors can alter the pH in and of themselves. So depending on the flavor you might need to add more or less.

 

[mikepetro]

Some other tidbits from Dr Kurt about nic salts:

Nicotine Comparisons

Nicotine Comparisons

Nicotine Comparisons

Nicotine Comparisons

 

[Rossum]

To my knowledge, all nic salts are made by adding some sort of acid.

It doesnt necessarily make it sour, however it can contribute to sour notes depending on your recipe.

I confident that's correct. Plain (freebase) nic is quite alkali. Adding acid will protonate freebase nic, creating a salt and reducing the pH. Something can't taste "sour" unless it has a pH below 7, which would only happen if you added an "excess" amount of acid, i.e so much acid that the all the nic has been protonated and there's acid left over.

 

[Letitia]

I've been using nic salts for diy and love using them. Zero th and tasteless. I use mix for 9mg. Newer mixes I've dropped to 8mg due to early morning head rushes.

 

[Alien Traveler]

To my knowledge, all nic salts are made by adding some sort of acid.

It doesnt necessarily make it sour, however it can contribute to sour notes depending on your recipe.

After acid reacted, creating salt, there are no more any acid. It's gone. So - no sourness.

 

[ChelsB]

I’m still getting used to seeing the term “freebase” being used for perfectly legal reasons ! [emoji3]

 

[Letitia]

I’m still getting used to seeing the term “freebase” being used for perfectly legal reasons ! [emoji3]

I know. First time I read about it on a post I was waiting for a mod to pipe in.

 

[zoiDman]

I’m still getting used to seeing the term “freebase” being used for perfectly legal reasons ! [emoji3]

Yeah... I always wondered if a Red Light started to Blink somewhere in an Underground NSA Facility when we 1st started to talk about it.

LOL

Disclaimer: No Illegal or Illicit Drugs were Used In or During the Creation of this Post.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I've been using nic salts for diy and love using them. Zero th and tasteless. I use mix for 9mg. Newer mixes I've dropped to 8mg due to early morning head rushes.

Tonight is the first time using nic salts. Bought from Nic River and its clear, probably because of the low mg I got. I was searching for the right term to describe how I am feeling and head rushes match it exactly. I am thinking I will only use this in one tank while leaving my other set ups as they are with reg nic. Jury is still out as to whether this is something I will use all the time or not.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I’m still getting used to seeing the term “freebase” being used for perfectly legal reasons ! [emoji3]

That ^^ plus when I first started DIY with all the syringes and needles, I always wondered how I was gonna explain that I really wasn't a junkie.....lol.....and made jokes about it.

 

[IDJoel]

Thanks @mikepetro, @Rossum, and @zoiDman, I appreciate you all taking the time!

@mikepetro, You mentioned coil gunking as a byproduct of the addition of CA. My one half-hearted experiment at using CA displayed this in spades! I had to change coils in less than 24 hours (and this was in an unflavored recipe). I presume that I used too much; and I will get an inexpensive pH meter before proceeding with any more attempts.

Do the commercially sold nic salts have the same propensity to gunking as DIY CA+freebase? Or have they figured a way around it?

 

[SCOTT-3]

I use citric acid for descaling internal of espresso machines the brass comes up like new, if not fully flushed the the taste would be like a saled bowl, For vaping not for me.

 

[Letitia]

I get my nic salts from LNW and don't have any gunking issues. I am using diy juices with little to no sweeteners. Since switching to diy I rewick less often and coils are much cleaner than previously.

 

[Letitia]

Tonight is the first time using nic salts. Bought from Nic River and its clear, probably because of the low mg I got. I was searching for the right term to describe how I am feeling and head rushes match it exactly. I am thinking I will only use this in one tank while leaving my other set ups as they are with reg nic. Jury is still out as to whether this is something I will use all the time or not.

I filled my morning tank with 8mg last night and no head rush this morning. I order 100mg and they are always clear. Opened one from freezer and it is still clear as well. Would have loved the head rushes a couple of decades ago.lol

 

[stols001]

I have not found increased gunking factors with nic salts. I've been using them for DIY for some time, but I really like them. Couldn't tell you about flavor changes as I've never DIY with regular nicotine, but I don't find sourness in my mixes, honestly. I lean towards desserts, fruits, and alcohol flavorings. I use it at 18% so if it were really sour, I think I'd notice.

Don't really get a buzz either, but I am plenty nicotine tolerant, that's for sure.

Anna