Using Citric Acid in DIY

[mikepetro]

So I have another stupid question...would there be any benefit to using a combination of DW and PG? Perhaps some PG could help with the viscosity?

Would we need to make 2 solutions (1 CA in DW, 1 CA in PG) and then combine them? Or is it possible to add CA to a DW/PG solution?

I think at that point it is all about what viscosity you want. At the end of the day it is just about dissolving the CA so you can add to you eliquid.

 

[mikepetro]

Ok... So be it 1g/1ml CA/PG or 1g/1ml CA/H2O, the concentration of CA per Volume remains the same.

I guess what I am looking for is some Quasi Equilibrium Relationship between CA and Nicotine.

I don't seem to have a Frame of Reference of how much CA is being used for a given mg/ml of Nicotine.

If you ever find that "relationship" in a chart, please post it.

I am not aware of a way to say "add 2.3ml" and know its right, unless you arrived there through trials, and even then it would only apply to that ONE recipe.

Its all about pH, and flavorings affect pH too, so every recipe could be different. Shoot for a neutral (7ish) ph is the only metric I know. I can tell you that 2% of the concentrate is too much for 36mg unflavored nic, it drove it down to 5.8 or so. That whole guesswork thing is what drove me to use a pH meter as I know the metric there, I just drizzle my CA concentrate until the pH is right. All I can say is it doesnt take much.

Some whiz-bang chemist might be able to say how many molecules of CA it takes to protonate a molecule of nic, and how many molecules of nic there are in a 18mg solution, and how many molecules are in the CA concentrate, I am not that guy.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Its all about pH, and flavorings affect pH too, so every recipe could be different. Shoot for a neutral (7ish) ph is the only metric I know. I can tell you that 2% of the concentrate is too much for 36mg unflavored nic, it drove it down to 5.8 or so. That whole guesswork thing is what drove me to use a pH meter as I know the metric there, I just drizzle my CA concentrate until the pH is right. All I can say is it doesnt take much.

...

I would think that one would be Adding CA to Nicotine Base before they added Flavorings or Sweeteners.

It would be Nice is someone made some CA added Nicotine Base and then Posted what they did.

If say 1% of 1g/1ml CA/PG Solution was the right amount for 36mg/ml Nicotine base, then in a Mathematical Simplistic Reactant => Product world one might say that 0.5% would be the logical amount to add to 18mg/ml.

And then the Iterations could be done for any mg/ml Nicotine Base.

Not say'n this is True. It just seems like that if only Nicotine Base was used, that there should be a Very Highly Linear Relationship between a 1g/1ml solution and a given mg/ml Nicotine base.

BTW - This is about the Only thing I have ever seen that puts some Numbers next to some Milliliters of Nicotine Base...

Citric Acid Solution (06/2009)

1 g Citric Acid USP (anhydrous)
1 ml Distilled Water

and then...

60 mg/ml Unflavored Base (100 ml) (June, 2009)

71.6 ml Glycerol USP
17.9 ml distilled Water
6 g l-Nicotine USP
4.54 ml Citric Acid Solution

Formerly Vermont Vapor, Inc. - Recipes

Whereas I am assuming that 6 g of l-Nicotine is Pure Nicotine.

So... Formerly Vermont Vapor thinks that 4.54 ml of 1g/1ml of CA/PG Solution should be included in 100ml of 60mg/ml (or 6000mg of Nicotine).

 

[mikepetro]

I would think that one would be Adding CA to Nicotine Base before they added Flavorings or Sweeteners.

It would be Nice is someone made some CA added Nicotine Base and then Posted what they did.

If say 1% of 1g/1ml CA/PG Solution was the right amount for 36mg/ml Nicotine base, then in a Mathematical Simplistic Reactant => Product world one might say that 0.5% would be the logical amount to add to 18mg/ml.

Add the Iterations could be done for any mg/ml Nicotine Base.

Not say'n this is True. It just seems like that if only Nicotine Base was used, that there should be a Very Highly Linear Relationship between a 1g/1ml solution and a given mg/ml Nicotine base.

BTW - This is about the Only thing I have ever seen that puts some Numbers next to some Milliliters of Nicotine Base...

Citric Acid Solution (06/2009)

1 g Citric Acid USP (anhydrous)
1 ml Distilled Water

and then...

60 mg/ml Unflavored Base (100 ml) (June, 2009)

71.6 ml Glycerol USP
17.9 ml distilled Water
6 g l-Nicotine USP
4.54 ml Citric Acid Solution

Formerly Vermont Vapor, Inc. - Recipes

Whereas I am assuming that 6 g of l-Nicotine is Pure Nicotine.

So... Formerly Vermont Vapor thinks that 4.54 ml of 1g/1ml of CA/PG Solution should be added to 100ml of 60mg/ml (or 6000mg of Nicotine).

I'm out........

The only metric I know is pH, for more you will have to look elsewhere.

I was just sharing my own experience because somebody pinged me.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm out........

The only metric I know is pH, for more you will have to look elsewhere.

I was just sharing my own experience because somebody pinged me.

OK.

But Thank You for your help.

 

[squee]

So... Formerly Vermont Vapor thinks that 4.54 ml of 1g/1ml of CA/PG Solution should be included in 100ml of 60mg/ml (or 6000mg of Nicotine).

So that would be 0.0007566 x (total mg of Nic). ie if I were going to make 100mL of 50mg, I would add 3.78mL of the 1:1 CA Solution.

I finally got a chance to make the solution yesterday and decided to go with the DW - took me longer to gather the stuff than it did to make it LOL. Heated the water above 120F, added in the CA while stirring and it dissolved pretty quickly. From heating to adding to stirring to bottling took less than 5 minutes.

Next project is actually make the nic salt and mixing some juice to test but as I just got 2 kittens a couple months ago, trying to do anything like that these days is damn next to impossible

 

[zoiDman]

So that would be 0.0007566 x (total mg of Nic). ie if I were going to make 100mL of 50mg, I would add 3.78mL of the 1:1 CA Solution.

I finally got a chance to make the solution yesterday and decided to go with the DW - took me longer to gather the stuff than it did to make it LOL. Heated the water above 120F, added in the CA while stirring and it dissolved pretty quickly. From heating to adding to stirring to bottling took less than 5 minutes.

Next project is actually make the nic salt and mixing some juice to test but as I just got 2 kittens a couple months ago, trying to do anything like that these days is damn next to impossible

Yeah, I toyed with the numbers a little Myself.

I just have No Clue if what Formerly Vermont Vapor (FVV) post is anywhere near what other people have tried/used. Or the Results it might yield.

---

One Kitten can be a Handful. Two in one House can make for some Exciting moments. And can Imagine all the Things they could get into.

Remember that with Cats, when you can See them, that's when they are just Plotting to get into Trouble. It's when you Can't See them, that's when they are Doing the Trouble.

LOL

 

[Equality 7-2521]

If you ever find that "relationship" in a chart, please post it.

I am not aware of a way to say "add 2.3ml" and know its right, unless you arrived there through trials, and even then it would only apply to that ONE recipe.

Its all about pH, and flavorings affect pH too, so every recipe could be different. Shoot for a neutral (7ish) ph is the only metric I know. I can tell you that 2% of the concentrate is too much for 36mg unflavored nic, it drove it down to 5.8 or so. That whole guesswork thing is what drove me to use a pH meter as I know the metric there, I just drizzle my CA concentrate until the pH is right. All I can say is it doesnt take much.

Some whiz-bang chemist might be able to say how many molecules of CA it takes to protonate a molecule of nic, and how many molecules of nic there are in a 18mg solution, and how many molecules are in the CA concentrate, I am not that guy.

OK let me see if I got this right...I'm gonna start with 100mg of free base nic...I'm gonna go on an e juice calculator and figure out how to make a 30 ml bottle of 24 mg juice with 10% flavorings at 50/50 pg vg.....now my theroy is I will add the nic base add the flavorings add the vg...then take my benzoic or citric acid /PG solution and just add it till I get the right ph once that is achieved I will simply add the necessarry PG to make a 50/50 mix and it should be at 24 mg when I'm finished is that about right.

 

[ChelsB]

So I have another stupid question...would there be any benefit to using a combination of DW and PG? Perhaps some PG could help with the viscosity?

Would we need to make 2 solutions (1 CA in DW, 1 CA in PG) and then combine them? Or is it possible to add CA to a DW/PG solution?

That’s not a stupid question at all. I was wondering the same thing!

 

[Rossum]

Some whiz-bang chemist might be able to say how many molecules of CA it takes to protonate a molecule of nic, and how many molecules of nic there are in a 18mg solution, and how many molecules are in the CA concentrate, I am not that guy.

That's high-school or at most freshman college level chem, hardly "whizz-bang".

Unfortunately, that was over 40 years ago for me, and there's truth to the saying "Use it or lose it".

 

[mikepetro]

OK let me see if I got this right...I'm gonna start with 100mg of free base nic...I'm gonna go on an e juice calculator and figure out how to make a 30 ml bottle of 24 mg juice with 10% flavorings at 50/50 pg vg.....now my theroy is I will add the nic base add the flavorings add the vg...then take my benzoic or citric acid /PG solution and just add it till I get the right ph once that is achieved I will simply add the necessarry PG to make a 50/50 mix and it should be at 24 mg when I'm finished is that about right.

Sounds exactly like how I do it.

 

[ChelsB]

Just so I’m clear: is it safe to use the CA/PG mixture if I put it in a glass container and microwave it? I’m trying to get it to completely mix together/dissolve?

 

[stols001]

You should be able to microwave it, I think. Especially in glass. Contrary to popular belief, microwaves really don't change things at the cellular level or anything, they just heat stuff up. No different than putting it on the stove. I don't think it will harm it to be slightly heated.

Anna

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Have you tried stirring it at all/ like with a spoon or a glass rod?

 

[ChelsB]

Have you tried stirring it at all/ like with a spoon or a glass rod?

No, I actually haven’t. I’ve just been vigorously shaking the bottle [emoji4]

 

[stols001]

Man... I'm starting to be glad I just bought nic salts. I mean... I was all like, "I bet it's so much cheaper!"

(Yeah, I bet it is, I am also as lazy as I get away with, so I'm glad I have much, much nic salt in my freezer.)

I was super productive today though! I feel all.... Happy

Hope you get it dissolved ChelsB! I know you want to try it, but I admire your patience.

Anna

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

No, I actually haven’t. I’ve just been vigorously shaking the bottle [emoji4]

Do you remember the ratio of CA to pg?

It may just be way too much CA to dissolve?

 

[ChelsB]

Do you remember the ratio of CA to pg?

It may just be way too much CA to dissolve?

It’s a 1:1 ratio

 

[mikepetro]

Just so I’m clear: is it safe to use the CA/PG mixture if I put it in a glass container and microwave it? I’m trying to get it to completely mix together/dissolve?

Yes, thats safe, just do about 10 seconds at a time until the glass starts feeling hot.

 

[squee]

I can tell you that 2% of the concentrate is too much for 36mg unflavored nic, it drove it down to 5.8 or so.

did you test vape it at that level?

I did my mix tonight using the VV recipe/guidelines. My original test of the 100mg/mL nic I had from vaperstek showed a pH level of about 7.5-8ish (hard to be precise using those test strips). My test after mixing down to 50mg with the CA solution looked to be about... 6ish?