Vaping after we're dead

[godzilla93]

I believe Hookah is a good metaphor: with ecig, you also get a wide range of etc. The difference being that ecig is actually much healthier. Wich is why I'm thinking—sorry if I'm redundant here— that vaping has a future, not only as a harm reduction alternative for smokers, but as a legit recreational activity.

 

[kristin]

The most likely scenario would be a young person who WOULD have otherwise taken up smoking starts vaping instead. Someone who would have no interest in smoking probably wouldn't have any interest in vaping, either. So, it IS still tobacco harm reduction if someone who would have started smoking vapes instead.

The argument that encouraging reduced harm alternatives will get more people using nicotine/tobacco products (that wouldn't have if they thought all tobacco products are equally hazardous) is a popular one with the ANTZ and anti-THR people. They say they worry that there will be a negative health effect if 1 person quits smoking but 20 people start using smoke-free. (Really they just hate tobacco/nicotine and are nanny zealots who want to control behavior - they'd ban alcohol and junk food if they could, too.) But if you look at the stats, since smoke-free has somewhere around 98% less risk, it would take a LOT more than 20 never-users to start using nicotine/smoke-free tobacco for every smoker who switches to not still see an overall health benefit for the public.

The idea that the world could be nicotine and tobacco free is unrealistic. In the US, we have hit a bottom of around 20% smokers. Since there are nearly 46 million US smokers and that number isn't dropping, in spite of smoking bans, public education, older smokers quitting, smokers dying from smoking-linked diseases, that means that enough youth are starting smoking to keep that number consistent. If vaping overtakes smoking in popularity, it's obviously NOT going to just be smokers choosing to switch - it's going to be educated, previously non-smoking youth choosing a reduced harm alternative instead of starting with smoking. Which is why we need to get the truth out about reduced risk alternatives to EVERYONE.

My personal opinion is that SMOKE-FREE nicotine use is no more dangerous than caffeine or alcohol use. The reason health groups wanted to treat nicotine addiction in the first place was not because of the harm caused by nicotine, but the hazardous METHOD of how people were getting that nicotine. If we all smoked tea leaves or coffee plants to get caffeine, it would be just as dangerous as smoking to get nicotine. But we steep and drink caffeinated plants instead, so the health risks are extremely low and no one really gets pressured to quit caffeine. Coffee drinking is more than just a morning pick-me-up now. There are coffee connoisseurs! How are coffee fanboys, with their French presses, fancy grinders and specialty beans any different from avid vapers? In fact, they are putting caffeine into more and more products every day!

So, just as we don't really give little kids caffeine drinks or encourage youth to use it, we obviously wouldn't be giving them nicotine products or encouraging youth to use it. But we also have to be realistic that certain kids are going to start using caffeine and nicotine products, as they always have. Therefore, I find it extremely likely that there will continue to be a recreational use for e-cigarettes and they won't be used only by existing, long-term smokers. E-cigarettes will be regulated as recreational tobacco products and NOT as a treatment for nicotine therapy. Thank goodness or else they'd all be banned for sale even to adult smokers right now.

 

[RPadTV]

Well said and informative Kristin!

 

[godzilla93]

Thanks Kristin. I concur, 100%. But I'm still interested in hearing diverging opinions, as I believe this is an important subject, that can potentially show some different opinions/backgrounds/ethical stances within the vaping community.

 

[godzilla93]

And BTW, also from Wikipedia:

"However, in a few situations, smoking has been observed to apparently be of therapeutic value. These are often referred to as "Smoker’s Paradoxes".[79] Although in most cases the actual mechanism is understood only poorly or not at all, it is generally believed that the principal beneficial action is due to the nicotine administered, and that administration of nicotine without smoking may be as beneficial as smoking, without the higher risk to health due to tar and other ingredients found in tobacco.

For instance, recent studies suggest that smokers require less frequent repeated revascularization after percutaneous coronary intervention (PCI).[79] Risk of ulcerative colitis has been frequently shown to be reduced by smokers on a dose-dependent basis; the effect is eliminated if the individual stops smoking.[80][81] Smoking also appears to interfere with development of Kaposi's sarcoma in patients with HIV.[82]

Nicotine has a mild laxative effect and can reduce symptoms of ulcerative colitis.

Nicotine reduces the chance of breast cancer among women carrying the very high risk BRCA gene,[83] preeclampsia,[84] and atopic disorders such as allergic asthma.[85] A plausible mechanism of action in these cases may be nicotine acting as an anti-inflammatory agent, and interfering with the inflammation-related disease process, as nicotine has vasoconstrictive effects.[86]

Tobacco smoke has been shown to contain compounds capable of inhibiting monoamine oxidase, which is responsible for the degradation of dopamine in the human brain. When dopamine is broken down by MAO-B, neurotoxic by-products are formed, possibly contributing to Parkinson's and Alzheimers disease.[87] Many such papers regarding Alzheimer's disease[88] and Parkinson's Disease[89] have been published. While tobacco smoking is associated with an increased risk of Alzheimer's disease,[90] there is evidence that nicotine itself has the potential to prevent and treat Alzheimer's disease.[91] Nicotine has been shown to delay the onset of Parkinson's disease in studies involving monkeys and humans.[92][93][94] A study has shown a protective effect of nicotine itself on neurons due to nicotine activation of α7-nAChR and the PI3K/Akt pathway which inhibits apoptosis-inducing factor release and mitochondrial translocation, cytochrome c release and caspase 3 activation.[95]

Recent studies have indicated that nicotine can be used to help adults suffering from autosomal dominant nocturnal frontal lobe epilepsy. The same areas that cause seizures in that form of epilepsy are responsible for processing nicotine in the brain.[96]

Studies suggest a correlation between smoking and schizophrenia, with estimates near 75% for the proportion of schizophrenic patients who smoke. Although the nature of this association remains unclear, it was recently argued that the increased level of smoking in schizophrenia may be due to a desire to self-medicate with nicotine.[97][98] More recent research has found that mildly dependent users got some benefit from nicotine, but not those who were highly dependent.[99] There are very few research done on this subject, including the research by Duke University Medical Centre which found that nicotine may improve the symptoms of depression in people.[100] Nicotine appears to improve ADHD symptoms. Some studies are focusing on benefits of nicotine therapy in adults with ADHD.[101]

While acute/initial nicotine intake causes activation of nicotine receptors, chronic low doses of nicotine use leads to desensitisation of nicotine receptors (due to the development of tolerance) and results in an antidepressant effect, with research showing low dose nicotine patches being an effective treatment of major depressive disorder in non-smokers.[102]

Nicotine (in the form of chewing gum or a transdermal patch) is being explored as an experimental treatment for OCD. Small studies show some success, even in otherwise treatment-refractory cases.[103][104][105]

The relationship between smoking and inflammatory bowel disease is now firmly established but remains a source of confusion among both patients and doctors. It is negatively associated with ulcerative colitis but positively associated with Crohn's disease. In addition, it has opposite influences on the clinical course of the two conditions with benefit in ulcerative colitis but a detrimental effect in Crohn's disease.[106][107]"

 

[RPadTV]

My body definitely feels better since I've been vaping. I know that was a "duh" statement, but I was amazed by how much more sensitive my senses of taste and smell are. Expectedly, my heart rate is significantly lower when exercising.

The only "danger" I see for my personal use is cost. I'm having way too much fun with this hobby. I'm also a coffee geek and I see plenty of similarities. With coffee I've spent a lot of money buying the right equipment and buying from companies that roast to order, as well as time learning the best brewing methods for my tastes. With vaping, it has been fun experimenting with equipment and finding my favorite e-liquid vendors. That said, it has all been cheaper than what tobacco cigarettes would have cost me.

 

[nobutts1]

Tough one, but vaping is harmless in my opinion.. all humans have traces of nicotine, as it is in the dirt. no chemical is good in your body, but you are better off staying in a closed room vaping, than outside breathing city air.

 

[godzilla93]

The only "danger" I see for my personal use is cost. I'm having way too much fun with this hobby.

I hear you. I've been vaping for two months, and I've been spending a lot of money on mods, cartos/clearos/atomizers, and juices. However, I think I've now found the right devices and juices, so I will not be spending as much as I did in this exploratory phase, And where I live (NY), a pack costs $12+, so I think I'm covered

 

[LifeLongJoyRide]

Nicotine is a poison and is used as a pesticide. To say that it is harmless is false. The other carcinogens in cigarettes make the hazards much worse, however nicotine contributes to the buildup of plaque within, and the hardening of, arteries and viens. There have been studies using nicotine-containing nasal spray as a nic replacement treatment that show the contribution to heart disease by nicotine alone.

We are doing something healthier...not something healthy.

 

[quonseteer]

I'm of two minds about vaping in the long term. Personally, vaping has proven to be my perfect alternative to smoking, and apart from these initial couple months of reading the literature, reviews, advice and anecdotes, making a few choices and procuring equipment, the transition was easy with those supports. So I perceive it as harm reduction of an addiction, and not so much a harmless or less harmful recreational activity.

Assuming even that the public health misperceptions that collude vaping with smoking disappeared, that cognitive association of smoking and vaping might linger much longer among non-smokers, and I wouldn't expect much change on that front for at least a generation. I also think that any regulatory regime lagging behind everything might hold back mainstream interest in vaping as a recreational activity in the long term. I do think that vaping in some form will exist for as long as a viable alternative to smoking is needed, and I would hope and suspect that the supports for it will be better: improved equipment, more social.

Sure, it might become a fad, culture's virus spreads faster than ever and kids do experiment for better or worse, but barring that, among non-smoking adults, I would think that they'd largely avoid an activity like 0 nic vaping proven to be relatively harmless, but not tangibly beneficial to them, unless they find value in its social, experiential or sensory aspects. Maybe that's what you're finding, OP?

 

[godzilla93]

Nicotine is a poison and is used as a pesticide. To say that it is harmless is false. The other carcinogens in cigarettes make the hazards much worse, however nicotine contributes to the buildup of plaque within, and the hardening of, arteries and viens. There have been studies using nicotine-containing nasal spray as a nic replacement treatment that show the contribution to heart disease by nicotine alone.

We are doing something healthier...not something healthy.

These are strong words. Could you substantiate that?

 

[godzilla93]

I'm of two minds about vaping in the long term. Personally, vaping has proven to be my perfect alternative to smoking, and apart from these initial couple months of reading the literature, reviews, advice and anecdotes, making a few choices and procuring equipment, the transition was easy with those supports. So I perceive it as harm reduction of an addiction, and not so much a harmless or less harmful recreational activity.

Assuming even that the public health misperceptions that collude vaping with smoking disappeared, that cognitive association of smoking and vaping might linger much longer among non-smokers, and I wouldn't expect much change on that front for at least a generation. I also think that any regulatory regime lagging behind everything might hold back mainstream interest in vaping as a recreational activity in the long term. I do think that vaping in some form will exist for as long as a viable alternative to smoking is needed, and I would hope and suspect that the supports for it will be better: improved equipment, more social.

Sure, it might become a fad, culture's virus spreads faster than ever and kids do experiment for better or worse, but barring that, among non-smoking adults, I would think that they'd largely avoid an activity like 0 nic vaping proven to be relatively harmless, but not tangibly beneficial to them, unless they find value in its social, experiential or sensory aspects. Maybe that's what you're finding, OP?

I don't know! I am thinking that it may become something more than a fad. Smoking has been an important part of many cultures, be it Hookah, or cigar, or whatever. Maybe vaping is the form it will take in the future. And based on what we know so far in terms of health-related consequences, IMO it's not a bad thing. Maybe a fertile basis for a new kind of social recreational practice. I personally don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[kristin]

Ah yes, the "nicotine is a pesticide" scare tactic. You know what else are pesticides? Mineral oil. Garlic. Onion. Salt. Citrus oil. Cayenne pepper. Eucalyptus oil. Chrysanthemum Flower Tea. Chili pepper. CAFFEINE. Know what else are poisonous? Iron. Flouride. Sugar. Peanut butter. Spinach. Hamburgers. Cashews. Almonds. Potatoes. Dihydrogen monoxide. CAFFEINE. Shall we trot out the scary "anti-freeze" next?

The dose makes the poison.

No, smoke-free nicotine use is not "healthy" in the same sense as eating a healthy, low-fat diet and regular exercise, but it's not exactly "dangerous" compared to a lot of other things we consume or do. And there is still very limited research on nicotine's role in heart disease.

So, unless you also plan on cutting out all other "not 100% safe" stuff you consume and/or do, too, fretting about the low risks associated with smoke-free nicotine use seems pretty pointless. Using scary words like "poison," "pesticides" and "heart disease" is just scaremongering and unfairly singling out one product while completely ignoring similar risks from others.

No one has ever tried to claim that nicotine use is "healthy," but for most people, it's going to be relatively "harmless" in the same sense that we view caffeine as "harmless."

 

[The Ocelot]

One can also overdose and die from water...and I don't mean drowning.

 

[LifeLongJoyRide]

I have vaped for 4 years and am not telling people not to. It is better than smoking. Simply don't get all extreme and start comparing our habit to things such as...ohh...lets say...water or cashews. Yes, it is quantity that makes it poison. So do you mind telling everybody the small amount of nic that makes it a poison compared to the rest of your list?

Again, I am pro vaping. But I don't like extremists that blow everything off or try to cover everything in wikipedia half truths after they form a club so that their views seem more legitimate. Do not attack my post by calling it scare tactics using what was the 2nd most (only 2nd to "it's harmless water vapor") overused smokescreen that our lifestyle spouts.

If you want truths, look at studies done before vaping was being challenged and extremists were fighting either side.

One of the nic nasal spray tests from a few years back:Journal of the American College of Cardiology 2002;39:251-256.

 

[Absintheur]

My Dad quit smoking 30+ years ago. He says he has always missed it, missed fiddling with his pipes. When I started vaping he asked quite a few questions about it and I forwarded him some articles on the benefits of low doses of nicotine, particularly those involving Alzheimer disease. After talking about it I set him up with an e-pipe and some 3mg nicotine juice. I cook him dinner 5 nights a week and now after dinner we talk and vape a bit. He is 81 and Alzheimer has always run in his family so we are hoping the low nicotine dosage may actually help prevent or delay it.

 

[RPadTV]

Simply don't get all extreme and start comparing our habit to things such as...ohh...lets say...water or cashews.

Those cashews will kill you.

 

[AttyPops]

@RPad...Cashews are reasonably good for you. What's the point? Confused.

 

[pericat]

People take up smoking for all kinds of reasons. Not all become smokers; I have known lots who only smoke when they're at a party, or a bar, or only when they're stressed, seriously stressed. They take it up for a night, or a few weeks, and then they put it down again and go on just as if they'd never smoked. No muss, no fuss. I don't understand it, I've just observed the phenomenon.

If 18+ kids take up vaping, without first stopping at the cig-addiction booth, I'm okay with that. It is the place of their friends and family to raise objections to that or any other pastime, not mine as a stranger. Vaping qua vaping doesn't hurt bystanders, and that's where I think society should draw the line when it comes to caring what strangers do. (Polite behaviour is another matter, I'm talking about codifying legal restrictions on personal choices.)

Self-medication is a murky subject; most of us go about it without conscious thought. When my body is jonesing for greens, all I can think about are salads. I don't set out to market thinking, "Today I shall eat lettuce, and perhaps green beans, for I am in need of anti-oxidants" or whatever it is that greens provide to keep things ticking over internally. I used to head for cigarettes when I wanted to think, now I pull out my PV. I used to, when undergoing bouts of total abstinence, get crazy and scattered and sad unto weeping. Now I've got this lovely vapy stick, and poof! no more with the cigs, no more with the sad. Someone might say, "Ah, but if you'd never taken up the cigs in the first place, it wouldn't be such an ordeal now." To which I respond, bollocks. I remember what I was doing. I was prowling the halls of the dorm, I couldn't settle, couldn't rest, or think. I finally went out to the corner store and bought a pack. Instant relief, followed by hours of productive study.

Tell me how bad nicotine is for me. G'won, cite studies, draw charts, knock yourself out. I was a smoker for 35 years, I've been there, done that, and I own the t-shirt factory. Nicotine may be bad for you, but for me? it makes my brain work. I'm just happy to have found a way to get it that also doesn't make me feel infantilized or put to shame, the way gum or patches do.

I expect people will take up vaping who are not in fact users of tobacco products. I expect they will do so for all the reasons people take up tobacco now. Some will continue to vape regularly, some not, just like now. People are complicated. They don't all do things the way I would, or the way you would. On the whole, they seem rather fond of their own solutions.

Frankly, I'd like to see vaping cheap, easy to master, and readily available.

 

[sl74]

First of all, vaping is clearly less of a danger than smoking. Abundant anecdotal evidence, and emerging studies all seem to point to that conclusion. So, for now, it should be recognized legally as a Tobacco Harm Reduction alternative, which may also be used for smoking cessation. That would propably bring the price up, but it would also raise availability, promote standardization and weed out the questionable suppliers. On a personal scale, this means I would currently advise a non-smoker against vaping even 0 nic solutions.

Second, if a few years down the line, the risks are proven to be less than anticipated at the moment, obviously we should let people use it at their own discretion.

But, as Kristin has hinted at, the whole approach we're taking to this problem is very typical for our time; society is more focused on risk management than ever before. If, say, alcoholic beverages or gasoline-driven cars had been invented today, they never would have entered the market.
I personally don't care for massive amounts of legislation to protect people from themselves, as I think it often ends up restricting our freedom in ways that detract from quality of life.
The opposing side does make a very sound argument though; if your lifestyle choices make you sick, "we" have to pay for the treatment. Hence, "we" have some say over the choices you make.
It bugs me that I can't counter that argument more effectively - anyone care to have a go at it ?