Vaping and Satisfaction

[Switched]

Well I thought naively that I might be able to vape myself towards being nicotine free. Having said that I am also a realist, and I might as well face the fact that I may go through the rest of my life with a metal tube in my mouth (PV). Notwithstanding, my goal is indeed to rid myself of my addiction.

In the beginning I did not chose vaping as an alternate "safer" lifestyle. No, I took up vaping as a means to an end, as a smoking cessation device. As many, I have tried many times in the past without success. My wife has resigned herself to the fact that I will never quit smoking, but is happy that I am vaping. She has noticed the health benefits etc... In order not to set myself up for failure, I never chose a target date or D day for being nicotine free, I believed in baby steps. Over the course of time I planned on reducing my nicotine intake to none, eventually quit vaping while maintaining a device handy should I fall off the wagon.

Well I have tried to reduce from 20-24mg down to 18mg on several occasions without success. I am not taking these failures as failures, just premature attempts. I will try again at later date. Over the WE I had mixed up sevral 18mg juices for my evening vapes. Nope, not doing it for me, mind you I had just finished a rather tiresome bout with my demons. Maybe next time.

My wife has noticed although I think I am vaping more, she says I am vaping less than I smoked. Well who would know better than your significant other eh? Which brings me to the following discussion.

Understanding our addiction is the road to recovery. Is it? I am retired which affords me a lot of time for research/reading into/on the subject. Many have stated that they know they will be vaping for years to come, that they can't help themselves etc... Well in the beginning I thought it was because of the age group etc... Does it go deeper than that? Oh yes it does, much, much deeper and all the way to BT and their accomplices.

Nocotine addiction in itself, ask any doctor and they will categorically state that "nicotine is flushed out of your system in 10-14 days, 10 being the norm", now you are left with the psychological effetcs of your addiction, or like I like to call 'em, our demons. What causes those demons?

Well we do know the affects of MAO inhibitors and ammonia found in analogs, what were the remaining 3998+ chemicals doing. I have said it for years that it was easier to quit back then than it is now. Open minded people who have tried in the past, but eventually were successful will readily admit it. The close minded really vocal former smokers, will state otherwise.

Through reading and discussion, why hasn't BT really jumped on the band wagon wrt vaping? Is it because they would rather remain annonymous, and just maintain a low profile while lobbying against vapint with the FDA, HC, WHO and our respective governments. Or is there more hiding under the surface?

We know that MAO inhibitors (an implated time bomb) has lasting effects of anywhere from 8-10 weeks. What else was included in the chemical cocktail we smoked, that we do not know about, or their effects on the system, besides causing cancer.

They included ammonia to increase the absorption rate of nicotine into the bloodstream. They added Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors so we self medicated with nicotine etc... what are the lasting effects of the other 3998+ chemicals?

Many have stated the only way they can remain free from analogs is to vape. That the day they quit vaping they will return to smoking. They know this. In the beginning I thought that they were folks who just plain didn't want to quit. It goes deeper than that in some. They just can't plain quit. There is something in their bodies that refuses to let go, even after a couple of years etc... Psychological triggers or chemical time bombs imbebed deep into our neuro system? A good question indeed.

So folks have been upping there mg over the rough spots, and decresing their nicotine intake during low periods etc... Just like a yoyo. I believe that BT is having a blast watching this circus show, becasue they know we are only steps away from increasing their coffers again. In the meantime playing the good guy part, they are coming out with alternate smokeless tobacco products showing the world that they are part of HARM reduction, are they? Whay is in their product now?

I plan to wean myself off nocotine, but I also have resigned myself to the fact that I may always have a PV stuck to my face, and not because I enjoy it.

 

[Sherrick]

A very interesting and insightful post, Switched. I wonder if, for you, the knowledge that you are dropping your nicotine level is part of the psychological warfare in your own system. If you didn't know that your nic level was lower, would it have as much of an impact on you? If your higher nic liquid was surreptitiously replaced with a lower nic juice, would it bother you as much? If you didn't know that you were vaping 18mg, would it be easier for you? I can't say, and I suspect you can't either. Food for thought, perhaps.

 

[Switched]

You know what, you bring up an excellent observation there, and one that I am truly going to reflect on. As I am typing this, I am presently vaping some 18mg Virginia I made, and all is well.

I am not prepared to dismiss your observation but would like to augment it's value perhaps. Flavoured juices just don't cut it for me, when I drop the mg, they become to thin, the latter is not very easy to explain. The vapour is there, the throat hit is there PGA will do that, as well as a drop or two of Tobacco Absolute. No, if I was going to compare it to something it would be an "au jus" gravy compared with a gravy that has been thickened with cornstarch or flour, I prefer cornstarch. I like using metaphors.

It is an interesting observation because although I stated I vape 20-24mg it is more around the lower end. The 24mg is stuff I order and in all honesty, questionable. When you DIY as I, unless my calculations are totally wrong (which I doubt) I know the effects of 24mg, which BTW I vape far less, in comparison to bought 24mg. Now I will freely admit this could very well be all subjective when inserting your observation, but I don't think so.

Take my RY5 for example I start with a 75/25 25mg base and then flavour it. Total flavouring 20% which equates to 20mg. Most of my other mixes are between 20 and 22 mg. My Cuban Cigar mixes come out at 25-27mg, which I start with from an 80/20 30mg Cuban Supreme flavoured base. Cigars were designed for that "fix" moment in the evenings, when there is one, and just like smoking premium cigars, a healthy dose of nicotine.

So yeah, your observation is cause for pause, but is it all that is happening here? My heaviest vaping moments of the day occur between noon and supper. In the evening I really cut back unknowingly. I do vape a lot at the PC though and while driving, this is not abnormal, just habitual. So I understand those triggers.

One might say that playing with the nicotine levels is altering the process. Have I just altered the delivery process good question? Am I still fulfilling a need? Perhaps! I believe the question should be why? Hence the entire purpose of this thread. I am not the only one, who is experiencing this phenomena. There's something missing that our body wants, that we are not getting. Like the most obvious one reported, why do I still want taste an analog. Many succumb to this sensation only to go yuck and jump back on the vaping wagon. So what triggers it after years. An anecdote...

About 10 years ago we were at the cottage celebrating Christmas in July. After dinner one night I was talking to a friend (a former cigar smoker) while enjoying a after dinner stogie. Well, Wayne stated that he was going for a walk to work off the turkey. This was Sat of a long WE. Nothing was said. On Mon we were sitting on the porch when the revelation came out. The smell of my premium cigar overwhelmed him to the point that he wanted to rip my stogie out of my hands and eat it. I knew he smoked cigars years ago. I asked whe he quit? He stated he never did. I said say again. I never quit smoking, I just don't smoke. Just like an alcoholic, he can never touch one again. That trigger BTW was 18 years after he "stopped smoking". Wayne later stated, he never in that entire period felt a trigger as powerful as that one. I apologised for my inconsideration. He stated it wasn't my fault as he had been exposed to cigars on more than one occasion and he nerver felt a trigger. In the beginning yes, but not after a year or so, and that outside burnign tobacco stinking up the place, he had no problem with "smokers". I never smoked another cigar around him since, out of respect for Wayne and his reovery.

Now all this can be very subjective as the power of the mind is indeed a great weapon. Is it, or is there indeed something else? I'm not a paranoid individual by nature but rather I am curious as to the effects the other chemicals played in our bodies, more importantly, their lifespans.

I hope I was able to offer some insight wrt your observation. In closing do not feed me decaffeinated coffee because I can taste it immediately. The same goes with Australian wines which don't agree with neither the missus or I. There is a taste that is imparted because of our body chemical composition that just does not agree with us. Many Sommeliers can explain it. The latter is not cost related. A blindfold test to either one of us and we will pick that sucker out of a crowd. I also know when a restaurant does not put the St-Jacques in their "Scallop St-Jacques".

Yeah, I know. It sucks to be me

 

[Sherrick]

Your original post really struck a cord with me because I had been smoke-free / nicotine-free for 5+ years before I showed up here. I had a heart attack and some other health issues and had to quit smoking back at the very end of 2004.

I mentioned to my doc earlier this year that I still wanted a cigarette as bad after 5 years as I did a week after quitting. He and I talked about this for a while and he said, "Well, you could try Nicorette gum or some of the lozenges." He paused here for a moment, then said, "Yeah, you could try those. They won't do you any good, but you can try them." I laughed at this, and then he went on to talk about the oral fixation, the hand-to-mouth habit, etc. I asked him about using an e-cig, and he said he didn't know enough about it to comment. He went on to say that he'd do some research and get back with me.

A few days later, he called me and we rehashed the above conversation. Then, he said, "I looked into the e-cig thing for you. I think you should try it if you're at all interested in it. I think it will satisfy most of your cravings and I certainly don't think it's going to hurt you any." I was shocked by this, and elated. I placed an order for my first PV a few days later and have been vaping ever since.

I don't feel any different physically than I did when I had quit smoking for all of those years except, I'm not fixated on every cigarette I see and constantly fighting not to smoke. I also notice that I am eating a lot less, especially between meals and late in the evenings. I also eat less at meal times because when I vape after eating, it's a signal to my brain that the meal is over. I'm a fairly big guy - about 6'4 and 250lbs. - and I have never been and never will be thin. It's just not going to happen. However, I am losing weight and when I went back to see my doc recently, his feeling was that vaping and carrying less weight would be far healthier for me than not vaping and weighing more. I hope he's right. I'm sure enjoying these changes to my lifestyle.

But back to your original post: Why after 5+ years would I still crave a cigarette so badly? I don't know, but I do know that vaping has replaced that gnawing at the back of my mind and I can now be around cigarettes without any desire to light up.

Sherrick

 

[bornagainst]

Switched!!!

If you hate math, shouldn't you hate science too?

 

[Switched]

Frigg off BA, I just laugh so hard I chocked on my lunch. I'm going to send TO's finest after you for involuntary manslaughter. But hey, ain't I just full of surprises? And yeah you guessed it the moon is behind us.

No, when I posted that reply I had better things to do than to count my puffs. That sounded too stressful to me. But hey, I am glad someone did it for the gipper, I mean the community.

 

[Switched]

Your original post really struck a cord with me because I had been smoke-free / nicotine-free for 5+ years before I showed up here. I had a heart attack and some other health issues and had to quit smoking back at the very end of 2004.

I mentioned to my doc earlier this year that I still wanted a cigarette as bad after 5 years as I did a week after quitting. He and I talked about this for a while and he said, "Well, you could try Nicorette gum or some of the lozenges." He paused here for a moment, then said, "Yeah, you could try those. They won't do you any good, but you can try them." I laughed at this, and then he went on to talk about the oral fixation, the hand-to-mouth habit, etc. I asked him about using an e-cig, and he said he didn't know enough about it to comment. He went on to say that he'd do some research and get back with me.

Wow! Well I'm glad you found us. But the gist of this thread is that there is something besides the oral fixation, that is bothering us. Like my bad WE, I wanted to taste a cigarette, period. I was looking after the nicotine and oral fixation.

I don't feel any different physically than I did when I had quit smoking for all of those years except, I'm not fixated on every cigarette I see and constantly fighting not to smoke.

That's because IMO and that of others, is triggered by one of those other chemicals. Once the body is receiving nicotine, these little time bombs go dormant again, until next time, for the lack of a better word. Ask any doctor and they will all tell you it is easier to cure a ...... addict than a smoker, and not because one is legal and the other not. The only people that know what is going on is BT and their chemists.

I also notice that I am eating a lot less, especially between meals and late in the evenings. I also eat less at meal times because when I vape after eating, it's a signal to my brain that the meal is over. I'm a fairly big guy - about 6'4 and 250lbs. - and I have never been and never will be thin. It's just not going to happen. However, I am losing weight and when I went back to see my doc recently, his feeling was that vaping and carrying less weight would be far healthier for me than not vaping and weighing more. I hope he's right. I'm sure enjoying these changes to my lifestyle.

As i my friend as I.

But back to your original post: Why after 5+ years would I still crave a cigarette so badly? I don't know, but I do know that vaping has replaced that gnawing at the back of my mind and I can now be around cigarettes without any desire to light up.

Sherrick

Gotcha! and I don't want to burst your vaping bubble, but apparently vaping is only a mask, there is something in a cigarette that our body is endlessly searching for, and it is only associated with nicotine, which btw is addictive but not to the extent of cigarettes. See how I chose this word (nicotine) carefully. I want to dis-associate tobacco, nicotine and cigarettes.

Nicotine is found in many plants outside of tobacco. Nicotine addiction does not manifest itself in the body after 2 weeks, that's from doctors and therapists. So in theory, we no longer need the nic, therefore do not crave it perse.

I smoked premium cigars, and pipe. Now we know that (ask any doctor) pipe tobacco and cigars were less harmful (in general) than cigarettes. Although I could feel the buzz of a good Cuban after finishing an hour long cigar, within minutes I needed a cigarette, although my body definitely did not need the nicotine, it was supposed to get something else that was/is associated with nicotine. The nicotine in the cigar caused what I believe was a chain reaction, that could only be subdued with a cigarette. Once I had a cigarette, contentment once again ensued.

As we know that effect was short lived in many people. I remember when smoking was pleasure (I'm 54, smoking for 40 years) and not a habit. I would safely guess that in the last 10 years, I was smoking out of habit as I definitely did not derive any pleasure from smoking, whatsoever. Vaping has returned a certain pleasure and relaxation.

So based on all this, I am definitely curious to see what folks have to offer to this discussion, because this thread is something I can definitely sink my teeth into. There was/is more happening in cigs than meets the eye.

Food for thought. If nicotine is a pesticide, and we develop a tolerance towards unwanted foreign bodies in our system, and as our tolerance increases so does the rate at which we were supposed to be ingesting this stuff, outside of cancer, why are we still here to discuss about it? or is it just enough to ensure a source of income to BT, BP and governments? The latter is political of course and a subject for another discussion. I'm more interested in why do we smoke and what causes it, based on previously discussed material.

 

[hotone]

I have quit smoking many times and gone as long as two years on occasion. The lure of smoking never seemed to leave. When you go for a while without smoking and feel better, you forget about the bad things it does to you and only remember the things that you like about it. It takes a little while for those bad things to start to become noticable again which make it so easy to start again. When I was not smoking it is a constant battle and the smell of second hand smoke still tempts me. I could be driving in my car and smell it and be fighting the cravings. Stress was also one of my big triggers and often lead to breakdowns and picking up a smoke again.

I always try and remind myself the things that cause me to want to quit. Shortness of breath, trouble sleeping, smokers cough, smelling bad, lack of energy and moodiness when I go too long without a smoke. The biggest reason being I have two young children. I have never smoked around them and hope never take up this awful habit that I have so much trouble escaping.

Since I started vaping, I don't find second hand smoke tempting like I normally would. Getting into the elevator the other day with some people who were just coming back from a smoke break almost made me throw up. Vaping eliminates many of the things I disliked most about smoking. I hope to be able to ween myself off the nicotine completely one day. I honestly don't know if I can or not. I do think that I could pass on being sucked back in by that "one smoke" as long as I was able to vape. Course, I am relatively new at this so ask me again in a year maybe two.

 

[Switched]

I have quit smoking many times and gone as long as two years on occasion. The lure of smoking never seemed to leave. When you go for a while without smoking and feel better, you forget about the bad things it does to you and only remember the things that you like about it. It takes a little while for those bad things to start to become noticable again which make it so easy to start again. When I was not smoking it is a constant battle and the smell of second hand smoke still tempts me. I could be driving in my car and smell it and be fighting the cravings. Stress was also one of my big triggers and often lead to breakdowns and picking up a smoke again.

I always try and remind myself the things that cause me to want to quit. Shortness of breath, trouble sleeping, smokers cough, smelling bad, lack of energy and moodiness when I go too long without a smoke. The biggest reason being I have two young children. I have never smoked around them and hope never take up this awful habit that I have so much trouble escaping.

Since I started vaping, I don't find second hand smoke tempting like I normally would. Getting into the elevator the other day with some people who were just coming back from a smoke break almost made me throw up. Vaping eliminates many of the things I disliked most about smoking. I hope to be able to ween myself off the nicotine completely one day. I honestly don't know if I can or not. I do think that I could pass on being sucked back in by that "one smoke" as long as I was able to vape. Course, I am relatively new at this so ask me again in a year maybe two.

From what I have gathered 2 is the magic number or thereabouts.

Second hand smoke never bothered me, but the stench of someone coming back from a smoke did. Not for cravings, just because they stunk. I asked my wife if indeed I tasted like an ashtray, we all know the answer. I never want to taste like an ashtray again. My cravings are not caused by smokers, I vape with 'em. My triggers is the taste of a cigarette, which we know doesn't taste like what we would think (tobacco)

 

[Switched]

I seriously thought more folks would have participated with their experiences here.

When I was talking to my neighbour yesterday, he did mention that when folks used to come back from trips (especially Cuba) and shared some Cubans on such occasions, that within minutes of finishing one, he would light up.

 

[Meat]

My experiences have pretty much been the same as yours.

The main difference to you, that I noticed about e-cigs is that it really was easy for me to give up analogs after a couple weeks off them. After reading many of the posts here on the forums by some of the snus fiends , I was expecting that the e-cig alone wouldn't fix my tobacco urges, and I'd be stuck with a metal pipe in my mouth as well as a packet under my lip. I've had two analogs in the last 3 months now, mainly just out of curiousity, and they tasted like crap compared with my e-cig, and did nothing for me.

Cutting down the mg/ml level seems to be completely out of the question for me. As soon as I go much below 24mg I start to get annoyed at the lack of "hit" I'm getting and feel like having an analog, or I start to think my atty is broken. This is pretty much what all the quit-smoking literature already says... cutting down just means torturing yourself even worse than going cold turkey.

I think part of the reason the nicotine never really lets go, is the fact that it makes big changes in your physical brain structure. We already know that it alters your dopamine production, but I don't think any research has been done to see how long, if ever, it takes your brain to get back to normal. Without the same levels of dopamine, we'll be a bit more "down" compared with never-been-smokers unless we have nicotine in our system.

Part of it's probably psychological as well. Once you've tasted the forbidden fruits, you'll always think that life would be better if you just had more.

Anyways, I'm actually happier these days now that my lungs are starting to get back some vigour. Would love to be free of nicotine altogether, but this is definately a lifestyle and personal health improvement for me so far.

 

[Switched]

My experiences have pretty much been the same as yours.

The main difference to you, that I noticed about e-cigs is that it really was easy for me to give up analogs after a couple weeks off them. After reading many of the posts here on the forums by some of the snus fiends , I was expecting that the e-cig alone wouldn't fix my tobacco urges, and I'd be stuck with a metal pipe in my mouth as well as a packet under my lip. I've had two analogs in the last 3 months now, mainly just out of curiousity, and they tasted like crap compared with my e-cig, and did nothing for me.

Well being a class A personality even my wife openly admits I will probably be vaping until the cows come home, and she is cool with that. She has noticed the health changes etc... and I was told not to rush it. She is extremely supportive, but at the same time I know I am not being patronized. vaping has reduced my overall consumtion. So although, I may not see being at 24mg as a good thing, she has noticed a steady decrease. She also knows now when I am having a bad day.

SNIP*

I think part of the reason the nicotine never really lets go, is the fact that it makes big changes in your physical brain structure. We already know that it alters your dopamine production, but I don't think any research has been done to see how long, if ever, it takes your brain to get back to normal. Without the same levels of dopamine, we'll be a bit more "down" compared with never-been-smokers unless we have nicotine in our system.

Would you care to elaborate on dopamine and it's effects. Because from my understanding and discussing it with Drs, nicotine in itself although addictive, is not as addictive as portrayed to be.

SNIP*

Anyways, I'm actually happier these days now that my lungs are starting to get back some vigour. Would love to be free of nicotine altogether, but this is definately a lifestyle and personal health improvement for me so far.

You and I both.

 

[VinnieVapor]

I have been smoking for 23 years, a bit less than a pack a day.

I started that VP thing 6 months ago at 18 mg with the goal to go to 0mg.

I am now at 8 mg and it had been really difficult. At first I tought I could do big steps like going from 18 to 12 then 6 then 3 .... but no.

I had to do it 1mg less at a time: 18 -> 17 -> 16 -> 15 -> .... -> 10mg then back to 14 -> 13 -> ....

I am at 8mg but the truth is I have not lowered my total daily nicotine usage: I simply vape non stop!

 

[Switched]

I believe I will be able to follow your advice once I have developed a line of liquids to suit my needs. Since I mix my own this should prove a moot point down the road I believe.

What makes it difficult with vendor purchased liquids is the gaps between nicotine concentrations e.g 36mg, 26mg, 24mg, 18mgetc... Of course this is site dependant but they do not exist at Xmg, Ymg and Zmg. Mind you many vendors who do custom liquids will entertain specific concentration requests. Some will charge a premium for doing so others will offer it at no cost to steady customers.

... and yes many play yo-yo with concentrations. This is a positive step IMHO. I know of folks that are sitting at 0 nic and everyn ow and again will vape 6-8mg. Others reduce to 11mg to increase to 18mg to avoid the stinkies. This was the subject of conversation my wife and I had. During the time I was chatting with the neighbour yesterday, I recall a particular instance that I had my eGo in my hand, discussing back and forth, playing with it on occasion etc... you know like talking to a class with a pen in your hand. I didn't realize how long it had been between vapes and it was close to 1/2hr. So yeh, there is a lot at play.

 

[Meat]

Would you care to elaborate on dopamine and it's effects. Because from my understanding and discussing it with Drs, nicotine in itself although addictive, is not as addictive as portrayed to be.

I'm no doctor, so I don't really want to mangle an explanation of dopamine too much. Basically when dopamine gets released by your brain, it causes you to feel like whatever you're doing to cause its release (e.g eating, smoking, vaping) is pleasant, so you know to do it again. Something else in smoking (not sure if it's nicotine or another chemical combination) causes the dopamine to stay around in your brain longer before being re-absorbed, so your brain thinks its an especially good thing.

I think it's pretty well established that nicotine is extremely addictive. It doesn't have severe physical withdrawal effects like ...... for example, but many studies have shown it's probably even more addictive than that drug... addiction being partly caused by the reinforcing effect of the dopamine release interaction with your brain chemistry, which has been changed by long term nicotine use.

 

[Switched]

Well that sure explains allot. Thanks.