Vaping...More harm then good? For me yes...Im done!!!!!!

[GoodDog]

This thread was a last straw for me, Kristen! I'm sure you will have at least a page of type in response but do you really see how you have been coming across in the last few months? I know I will never again donate to CASAA because of your tactics and I know others feel the same. You can say that you are speaking for yourself but there is no way to separate the way you post from your roll in speaking for CASAA. You couldn't possibly have two separate agendas or views. We have a right to post about our concerns and not have you dominate the (many) threads with your long opinions! You seem to have the arrogance to think you somehow are our leader and can tell us what to do! Well, I'm telling you to STOP and let members talk about their concerns! If you truly believe they are safe then this shouldn't worry you.

 

[kristin]

I will withdraw from this discussion now and simply bid everyone best wishes for the new year.

Peace.

 

[kristin]

This thread was a last straw for me, Kristen! I'm sure you will have at least a page of type in response but do you really see how you have been coming across in the last few months? I know I will never again donate to CASAA because of your tactics and I know others feel the same. You can say that you are speaking for yourself but there is no way to separate the way you post from your roll in speaking for CASAA. You couldn't possibly have two separate agendas or views. We have a right to post about our concerns and not have you dominate the (many) threads with your long opinions! You seem to have the arrogance to think you somehow are our leader and can tell us what to do! Well, I'm telling you to STOP and let members talk about their concerns! If you truly believe they are safe then this shouldn't worry you.

You're right. I'm done posting. I will abstain from posting in this section from now on.

I sincerely apologize for causing anyone stress and upsetting people. The last thing I want is to alienate people or make them give up vaping because of something I said or hurt CASAA and it's greater goal. It was not my intention and I'm sorry if my passion and zeal had that effect.

 

[Sdh]

Bump................................Those posts changed. To the orginal poster. I hope all is well. Chances are he/she may never return to discuss their concerns. I know I will never post my side effects or adverse effects on this forum related to health concerns. Maybe chit/chat that is all.

 

[tdh]

Dog pile on Kristin!

Hypocrisy overwhelming:

We have a right to post about our concerns and not have you dominate the (many) threads with your long opinions!

It is sad to see that astroturfing techniques have become part of normal discussion. In this case, accusing dissenters of censorship. Perhaps her posts are a bit long and she may use forceful language, but she avoids statements that may be factually incorrect. Unlike many posters, she also never tells anyone to stop voicing their opinion.

I know I will never post my side effects or adverse effects on this forum related to health concerns. Maybe chit/chat that is all.

Don't try to blame self censorship on anyone but yourself. If you are unwilling to engage in rational discussion of serious topics, then perhaps you should focus on the venues (chit/chat is a good example) where rational discussion is not the goal. Meaningful dialog requires dissent. I would not ask anyone to silence themselves for fear of criticism; instead I ask everyone to embrace dissent and speak with an open mind. Nobody criticized the OP for mentioning the symptoms. Only by sensationally claiming that they were caused by vaping.

There are some opinions that one should keep to themselves, though. For example, telling someone to not go to a doctor is usually a really bad idea. In this case, it is an extremely bad idea. I have known two people who reported very similar symptoms but didn't want to see a doctor about it. They both eventually did. One had congestive heart failure (it killed him 2 years later) the other had severe hypertension. As both of those are possibilities, then telling someone to stop vaping and see a doctor is a very appropriate response. Agreeing that vaping is the sole cause of the symptoms is an inappropriate response, as is assuming that the symptoms are mild, is a very inappropriate response. I very much doubt that anyone here is qualified to make medical diagnosis over this medium.

If these symptoms are actually a result of vaping, then we should make the effort to find out. If anyone else has these symptoms, please report them and follow through to determine whether vaping is a factor.

To the OP:

Good luck with quitting vaping. There is little doubt that not vaping is healthier than vaping.

If you are still with us, please post a follow-up. If you are afraid of criticism, just remember that it is unfathomable that you will be treated as harshly as anyone who disagrees with you.

If you haven't yet, please see a doctor. If you cannot see a doctor, then you could at least check your blood pressure. Many pharmacies will do this for free.

 

[SimpleSins]

Dog pile on Kristin!


Don't try to blame self censorship on anyone but yourself. If you are unwilling to engage in rational discussion of serious topics, then perhaps you should focus on the venues (chit/chat is a good example) where rational discussion is not the goal. Meaningful dialog requires dissent. I would not ask anyone to silence themselves for fear of criticism; instead I ask everyone to embrace dissent and speak with an open mind. Nobody criticized the OP for mentioning the symptoms. Only by sensationally claiming that they were caused by vaping.


If these symptoms are actually a result of vaping, then we should make the effort to find out. If anyone else has these symptoms, please report them and follow through to determine whether vaping is a factor.

To the OP:

Good luck with quitting vaping. There is little doubt that not vaping is healthier than vaping.

If you are still with us, please post a follow-up. If you are afraid of criticism, just remember that it is unfathomable that you will be treated as harshly as anyone who disagrees with you.

If you haven't yet, please see a doctor. If you cannot see a doctor, then you could at least check your blood pressure. Many pharmacies will do this for free.

Obviously you either neglected to read through the full thread, nor have you had the joy of reading any of the others where the faux physicians come out of the woodwork and declare that the symptoms could not possibly be caused by vaping; they obviously are caused by A) Previous cigarette use; B) Hypochondria; C) PG allergy.

It shows the delusion of an addict to think that there are no health implications associated with vaping, and I'm not talking about things like a PG sensitivity. I am talking full blown health implications. One of the other wannabe medical experts declared that using an ecig is the equivalent to using snus. If someone is not capable of knowing the difference between something that goes through digestive system (as swallowing snus'd saliva would) and something that goes into the much more tender and fragile lungs, they really should not be commenting on anybody's health situations.

Ecigs have only been around a handful of years and the wild array of flavorings half that. As I heard someone else refer to them, the people with symptoms may be the canaries in the mine.

But it does everyone a disservice to pretend that there is nothing wrong with vaping that a switch to VG won't cure or increasing the nicotine. And everytime somebody comes on here with problems they're told that there are no problems with vaping....just symptoms of quitting smoking or just a sensitivity to PG...and to switch up what they vape and they'll be fine. Go read any of the many posts by people who have developed severe shortness of breath since they started vaping. Read all the posts of people who never had it before who developed it. Read the posts by a couple people who hadn't smoked but still ended up short of breath. Read all the posts by people who quit vaping and ended up taking a year before they started to feel back to where they were before they started vaping. And then there's all the ones we never hear back from, and I can just hope that they decided it was better to let Darwin have his way with the people who prefer not to acknowledge problems. Of course, it is also possible that things got much much worse for them, but I hope that's not the case.

 

[tdh]

It shows the delusion of an addict to think that there are no health implications associated with vaping, and I'm not talking about things like a PG sensitivity.

Relevance? Has anyone in this thread made such a claim?

 

[Sainted_S]

I'm on the fence about this issue. I do believe as a young industry it is very important to be transparent regarding possible health concerns but I also feel that there needs to be medical facts that certain health problems are caused by PVs. For example, for at least the past month I had a terrible cold that began with the absolute worst sore throat and dried-out sinuses I have ever experienced. Being relatively new (about 3 and a half months) to vaping, I jumped to the conclusion that vaping was causing the problems and went right back to analogs for 2 days (2 packs). The first night I experienced the symptoms I was sure it was caused by vaping because I had never experienced a sore throat that severe before. As time went on and I got the stuffy nose, headache, cough... classic killer cold. However, my cold did not clear up and I went through periods of dizziness and shortness of breath. Again, I was concerned, but I kept vaping. After a month I went to the doctor and I had been living with a sinus infection. My doctor did not even suspect my PV and thought it was a much better idea than smoking. I took my prescription and everything is back to normal. Personally I believe that I've had a sinus infection for months and I just kept getting sick over and over again. However, I was scared, and I did fear that what I was going through was caused by vaping.

I did not post my concerns, but if I had I would have wanted a caring and supportive response. It is vital at this time in the infancy of the industry that there is transparency, the good and the bad about vaping. There are so many interests out there from big tobacco, the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA that are looking for reasons to find any fault with PVs that we, as users, must self-regulate. That means taking the good effects with the bad and not just ignoring or discounting someone's experience. We need to have a community that is willing to hear the bad and deal with it in a positive manner. The last thing we need is to be like big tobacco and hush up any risks.

I have made my choice. I am addicted to the "habit" I can not see myself quitting vaping and if I had to quit vaping I would go right back to analogs. I do believe vaping is the lesser of two evils. I have read many of the available studies and I choose this rather than analogs, however, we can't ignore that there may be risks. I would like to be an optimist and the Boston University study was a great shot in the arm for the vaping community, but we have to be open to accepting possible risks by listening to users that are having health problems.

 

[Bovinia]

Good insight Sainted. My concern is the same and I've seen it happen repeatedly on many threads in different areas of these forums. When something negative is brought up, the discussion goes south very quickly because there are some who don't want to hear it. Then tempers flare, insults fly and threads get locked. The result is helpful to no one when this happens. It reminds me of cyber bullying to intimidate people into not posting concerns.

There is no doubt that the OP needed to see a Dr. and most of the replies said as much, but there are always some who add smart aleck posts or condescending posts. It's sad to see such a lack of respect for each other.

 

[tdh]

My doctor did not even suspect my PV and thought it was a much better idea than smoking. I took my prescription and everything is back to normal. Personally I believe that I've had a sinus infection for months and I just kept getting sick over and over again. However, I was scared, and I did fear that what I was going through was caused by vaping.

I did not post my concerns, but if I had I would have wanted a caring and supportive response. It is vital at this time in the infancy of the industry that there is transparency, the good and the bad about vaping.

Thank you for posting now instead and for not making unfunded claims at the time. It is easy to jump to conclusions, and people who care should point out when their friends do so. I am personally willing to support anyone who wants to quit vaping or the use of any other nicotine product. I will probably do so myself some day, and hope that others wish me luck without regard for my reasons at the time I make that decision. But I do hope that if my reasons are incorrect or that if I make wild or untrue claims that someone points it out to me.

I agree with you unless by "caring and supporting," you mean "unanimously agreeing and condemning anyone who offers criticism."


Edit: Removed inflammatory language including "silly claims."

 

[Bovinia]

Tdh, criticism doesn't have to have barbs attached to it. How about respect, acknowledgment, and compassionate suggestions?

 

[tdh]

Tdh, criticism doesn't have to have barbs attached to it. How about respect, acknowledgment, and compassionate suggestions?

I only posted in this thread because of where the barbs were pointed. The vast majority of them were pointed at one person who responded with respect, acknowledgment, and relevant suggestions. They were not pointed at the trolls, and only a few were pointed at the OP (by the trolls). Seriously, browse back and count the number of rude comments, ad hominem attacks, and requests for silence were made. Count how many times people were accused of saying or believing things that they don't believe, things they have refuted.

I doubt that any amount of courtesy will bring the OP back, however. It would be nice to have an update.

 

[Sainted_S]

Thank you for posting now instead of making silly claims. It is easy to jump to conclusions, and people who care should point out when their friends do so.

I think this is where the problem began for the OP and the thread took on a adversarial tone. If I had posted my claims would not have been silly, they would have been valid concerns. Just discounting someone's experience out of hand is not going to help anyone. Personally I was very frightened that vaping had caused my problems throughout the past few months and I did not want to return to analogs because I know I can't quit. However, I did do a search for health problems similar to mine on ECF and one of the threads helped me very much by one of the posters sharing their experience of a sinus infection that had not been treated and kept recurring over several months. That post gave made me realize that perhaps this was what was going on with me and had nothing to do with vaping. I had put off going to the doctor because I was afraid he would tell me to stop vaping, but my fears were unfounded. Thanks to open, supportive discussion with members sharing their experiences I went to the doctor for treatment and am a happy, more secure vaper now.

My point is that people will have different experiences and we can't just censure or discount them. Everyone's viewpoint will be different, but we need to be supportive and most people suggested the OP go to a doctor and made other positive remarks. Truthfully I believe Kristin was trying to be supportive as well (I use her because she is the poster that took alot of the criticism of this thread) and then words started flying because the OP got defensive. Then this thread just took a nose-dive and became much more less than helpful to anyone.

I agree with you unless by "caring and supporting," you mean "unanimously agreeing and condemning anyone who offers criticism."

I mean what I originally posted, we need to hear what other people are experiencing, good and bad and see how it applies to our personal choices. I imagine there will be some health effects from vaping, however, for myself I weigh it against the harm of smoking analogs. I'm pretty confident that vaping is safer, I don't think it will change my DNA, so, for me, at this point, vaping is a great alternative to a habit I can't break. I don't believe there will be any studies that prove vaping is more harmful than analogs, so I don't see my choices changing anytime soon, but I do want to know if others are having health problems. I don't want anyone's concerns "swept under the rug," I want them to be addressed and the causes brought to light so that vaping can continue to be a much safer alternative to smoking.

 

[PlanetScribbles]

I don't believe there will be any studies that prove vaping is more harmful than analogs

Neither do I. I have no doubt that some will have adverse effects from vaping, if that is the case then just move on. Some have adverse effects to eating white bread, that doesn't make white bread dangerous to health. It just means that you should find an alternative that works for YOU. Everyone is an individual, but blanket statements discrediting vaping for everyone helps no-one.

 

[Sainted_S]

Neither do I. I have no doubt that some will have adverse effects from vaping, if that is the case then just move on. Some have adverse effects to eating white bread, that doesn't make white bread dangerous to health. It just means that you should find an alternative that works for YOU. Everyone is an individual, but blanket statements discrediting vaping for everyone helps no-one.

I agree that blanket statments that discredit vaping without medical facts to back them up helps no one, however, I don't want someone that is experiencing problems to just "move on." I would hope that a poster that has a problem can post their experiences and concerns and keep us updated on what is going on with them without being shouted down. I really would like to hear from the OP on this. I would hope people that are experiences problems would follow up with a visit to the doctor and post the results.

I think that this is one of the problems with this thread, rather than listen to a personal experience that one person had, and contribute positive suggestions it became a defense of vaping. The title of the thread indicated what the OP felt and what she experienced. After my experience, I tend to think it could be caused by something other than vaping, but apparently we will never know the outcome. I think alot of it had to do with the reception the OP received from people discounting his experiences. Obviously I was having health concerns for quite awhile but I did not post because I was afraid of being discounted. I would like to think that had I posted people would have been supportive and posted their own experiences with the suggestion that I go to a doctor.

 

[rayneinspain]

I'm really trying to understand why on earth anyone--vaper or not--would not first consult a physician to pinpoint the source of multiple symptoms.

Of course, not everyone posts those symptoms, makes an unfounded statement as to cause, then continues to ignore multiple suggestions borne of common sense to actually see a physician. I tend to see these cases only when the symptoms become either very severe...or terminal, after the patient avoided medical help for months on end. Armchair diagnosing can be the most dangerous activity on earth. I don't recommend it.

I see the usual suspects have congregated on each side of the line in the sand: the ones still supporting a trip to the doctor (regardless of what the possible outcome could be), and the ones who, while still vaping themselves, seem pretty certain that vaping is the cause.

Hysteria was one of the main causes for the SHS scare.

Pity the vaping world is just as vulnerable to its emotional witlessness.

For the record, I wish the OP well.

 

[Tdol]

Given that we are guinea pigs testing a technology, isn't it a good idea to share concerns? One person having some symptoms doesn't prove anything, but if others notice the same thing, there may be something there, so a climate where people can share their concerns, no matter how strange they might seem, is a good thing. If there's nothing in them, no pattern will form and they can be discounted, but they have to be aired to be discounted or recognised IMO.

 

[rayneinspain]

Given that we are guinea pigs testing a technology, isn't it a good idea to share concerns? One person having some symptoms doesn't prove anything, but if others notice the same thing, there may be something there, so a climate where people can share their concerns, no matter how strange they might seem, is a good thing. If there's nothing in them, no pattern will form and they can be discounted, but they have to be aired to be discounted or recognised IMO.

Let's not put words into others' mouths...nothing wrong with sharing. Very silly to not see a doctor if the symptoms are 'severe', don't you think?

Chest pain. Simple reflux....or heart attack?

The OP of this thread did not have chest pain, but they did describe a sudden-onset need for continued use of respiratory inhalers. Of all the symptoms posted, that one disturbs me the most. Is it asthma? allergies? cardiogenic failure? cancer?

The anti's have tried to link SHS to a myriad of ailments, few to none have ever been definitively proven.

Wouldn't it be a good thing to have severe symptoms looked at by doctors before assumptions are made? What if they have nothing at all to do with vaping and the patient waits too long to be seen?

::

Nevermind. Like I said, there seems to be two distinct mindsets on these types of threads. I doubt anything will effect a change. Good luck to you all.

 

[Tdol]

In all honesty, I hadn't seen your post when I replied- it wasn't there when I started writing mine. I agree totally with what you're saying about seeing a doctor. All I meant was that one of the functions of things like this forum could be to build up some sort of knowledge base, not to replace doctors or anything like that. Armchair diagnosis is not a good thing, and that is not what I meant. My apologies, though again I hadn't seen your post and was not trying to twist your words.

 

[SimpleSins]

I'm really trying to understand why on earth anyone--vaper or not--would not first consult a physician to pinpoint the source of multiple symptoms.

Of course, not everyone posts those symptoms, makes an unfounded statement as to cause, then continues to ignore multiple suggestions borne of common sense to actually see a physician. I tend to see these cases only when the symptoms become either very severe...or terminal, after the patient avoided medical help for months on end. Armchair diagnosing can be the most dangerous activity on earth. I don't recommend it.

I see the usual suspects have congregated on each side of the line in the sand: the ones still supporting a trip to the doctor (regardless of what the possible outcome could be), and the ones who, while still vaping themselves, seem pretty certain that vaping is the cause.

Hysteria was one of the main causes for the SHS scare.

Pity the vaping world is just as vulnerable to its emotional witlessness.

For the record, I wish the OP well.

I guess I must read these threads too late and miss the most controversial posts. Can you point me out to which lunatics advised the OP not to go see his physician? I guess I must have just skimmed because I seemed to get the idea everybody thought that was a pretty good idea.

And I know what you mean about the hysteria. The NWH type cause probably equivalent problems as the SHS you refer to and it would be great if someday this board can allow everybody to be heard without the shuddagonetomedschool folks climbing out of the woodwork to tell them they can't possibly be experiencing what they're experiencing.