Vinegar?
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Tpa Sour is malic acid diluted 20% in pg Perfumers Apprentice - Sweet or Sour Flavors
Found this on the ta http://www.confectioneryarts.com/Products/Product%20SpecHTML/TARTARIC%20ACID.html
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Okay...An update.
Both acids as crystals have zero smell. Even the dilutions don't have a noticeable smell.
What I have done so far:
1/4 teaspoon of each acid into 10ml of PG.
Shake...examine...still some crystals...shake...examine...still some crystals...repeat (You get the idea?
)
The malic acid seemed to be completely dissolved after the first 1/2 hour.
The tartaric acid still has a few crystals settling to the bottom of the bottle and it has been about 3 hours now.
Then I made some test mixes:
5ml base @18mg NIC, 70%PG/30%VG
To this I added 2 drops of each acid and shook well. I let them steep for an hour before sampling.
Both acids are hardly noticeable at this strength, if at all. I may be tasting just a bit of sour with the malic acid but it is so faint that it might just be my imagination.
I have now added 2 more drops of acid to each mix. I will let these steep overnight before sampling them again. I want to find at what point I actually start tasting the sour flavor so later on I know exactly how much I can add to my mixes before it would affect the flavor.
Bostonboxers those links were a great find! If PA is mixing the malic acid at 20%, so will I. I'm going to add 1/4 teaspoon of each acid into each of the PG dilutions. That would make the dilution 1/2 teaspoon per 10ml which should be 20%.
I am using PG as a carrier instead of water because I think PG would be more stable in the long run. Bacteria really shouldn't ever grow in PG. (Not that they would grow in an acid dilution either.)
Any ideas?
Would you do something differently?
Pete
Both acids as crystals have zero smell. Even the dilutions don't have a noticeable smell.
What I have done so far:
1/4 teaspoon of each acid into 10ml of PG.
Shake...examine...still some crystals...shake...examine...still some crystals...repeat (You get the idea?
)The malic acid seemed to be completely dissolved after the first 1/2 hour.
The tartaric acid still has a few crystals settling to the bottom of the bottle and it has been about 3 hours now.
Then I made some test mixes:
5ml base @18mg NIC, 70%PG/30%VG
To this I added 2 drops of each acid and shook well. I let them steep for an hour before sampling.
Both acids are hardly noticeable at this strength, if at all. I may be tasting just a bit of sour with the malic acid but it is so faint that it might just be my imagination.
I have now added 2 more drops of acid to each mix. I will let these steep overnight before sampling them again. I want to find at what point I actually start tasting the sour flavor so later on I know exactly how much I can add to my mixes before it would affect the flavor.
Bostonboxers those links were a great find! If PA is mixing the malic acid at 20%, so will I. I'm going to add 1/4 teaspoon of each acid into each of the PG dilutions. That would make the dilution 1/2 teaspoon per 10ml which should be 20%.
I am using PG as a carrier instead of water because I think PG would be more stable in the long run. Bacteria really shouldn't ever grow in PG. (Not that they would grow in an acid dilution either.)
Any ideas?
Would you do something differently?
Pete
Thank you soooo much for doing this and sharing it with all of us!!! If I could give you 100 "likes" I would. 
Yeah, what GoodDog said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!
Seriously Pete, you have brought us into a whole new dimension of DIY. I haven't made a bad batch of anything since lemon juice and vinegar have been added to my mixes. This is a fantastic and very sharing group of people. Thank you all for your contributions!
Seriously Pete, you have brought us into a whole new dimension of DIY. I haven't made a bad batch of anything since lemon juice and vinegar have been added to my mixes. This is a fantastic and very sharing group of people. Thank you all for your contributions!
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Okay...An update.
Both acids as crystals have zero smell. Even the dilutions don't have a noticeable smell.
What I have done so far:
1/4 teaspoon of each acid into 10ml of PG.
Shake...examine...still some crystals...shake...examine...still some crystals...repeat (You get the idea?
The malic acid seemed to be completely dissolved after the first 1/2 hour.
The tartaric acid still has a few crystals settling to the bottom of the bottle and it has been about 3 hours now.
Then I made some test mixes:
5ml base @18mg NIC, 70%PG/30%VG
To this I added 2 drops of each acid and shook well. I let them steep for an hour before sampling.
Both acids are hardly noticeable at this strength, if at all. I may be tasting just a bit of sour with the malic acid but it is so faint that it might just be my imagination.
I have now added 2 more drops of acid to each mix. I will let these steep overnight before sampling them again. I want to find at what point I actually start tasting the sour flavor so later on I know exactly how much I can add to my mixes before it would affect the flavor.
Bostonboxers those links were a great find! If PA is mixing the malic acid at 20%, so will I. I'm going to add 1/4 teaspoon of each acid into each of the PG dilutions. That would make the dilution 1/2 teaspoon per 10ml which should be 20%.
I am using PG as a carrier instead of water because I think PG would be more stable in the long run. Bacteria really shouldn't ever grow in PG. (Not that they would grow in an acid dilution either.)
Any ideas?
Would you do something differently?
Pete
Nice work . I just got the caramel color you sent in so im gonna be doing some testing with that . It really turns to caramel when wet lol . It does have a nice taste to it as well .
First finding on Caramel color:
-It does NOT dissolve in PG ( This may be why a few people have reported sediments at the bottom of some vendors ejuice since caramel color would be heavier than PG ) . I tried 1/8tsp in 5ml PG btw
-I did get it to fully disolve in distilled water . Dissolved right away .
- I split a bottle of sugar cookie ejuice in 6 3ml sections for testing .
First bottle i put one drop of the caramel color in PG . Didnt dissolve .
Second bottle i put one drop of the caramel color in distilled water . This seems to have made it dissolve in the ejuice this time . We will see if it stays . I tried vaping side by side with the un modified juice and there is a difference right away in taste . It does taste more alive and rich ,really brings ot the cookie flavor this is just the beginning however . I did not notice and clogging of the atomizer thus far . Im sure there would be with the caramel color undissolved in PG from the other test bottle but this one is looking good . Still got lots more testing .This is just my initial thoughts . More to come .
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First of all - this is a fabulous thread!
I don't think this will work the way you are thinking - if you think about wine*, it is the balance between acids and sugar (and other tastes) that determines the taste, not the exact amount of acids or sugars per gram or milliliter.
Your threshold for tasting the sourness of the acid will most probably only hold true for the unflavoured liquid. Add something sweet and it will change. Add something bitter and it will change again.
Not a good example, because the tastes involved are quite different, but in totally unflavoured liquid in a clean atty I can just about taste the nic ("wet dog" or "fishy"). Any flavour at all in the liquid (or remains in the atty) and it is totally gone. Can't find it however much I try. I'm pretty sure I could not ever taste it if there was even a promille citric acid added to my nic.
*Just yesterday I was hunting in our local monopoly's catalog for a cheap rosé as a substitute for something I had bought abroad. One nice service the monopoly offers is that they state sugars/gram and acids/gram. It is very interesting to compare one's perception of wines to these hard facts - there can often be more sugars/gram in a very dry wine than in a half-sweet one, if the acidity balances it.
(Beer has similar stats one can look up, only with bitterness (IBU/EBU) instead of acidity usually, there too the balance is the important thing - usually I am very very bitter-sensitive, and mostly only drink hefeweisse or Belgian wheat ales with an EBU rating of 10-16. Light lagers with an EBU of 12-24 are usually intolerable to me. But occasionally I get adventurous and let the very knowledgeable people behind the bar at a good pub choose something for me, and usually I enjoy it very much. Then I get home and look it up and find that the wonderful thing I just drank had a bitterness rating of 30+... It's all in the balance!)
I don't think this will work the way you are thinking - if you think about wine*, it is the balance between acids and sugar (and other tastes) that determines the taste, not the exact amount of acids or sugars per gram or milliliter.
Your threshold for tasting the sourness of the acid will most probably only hold true for the unflavoured liquid. Add something sweet and it will change. Add something bitter and it will change again.
Not a good example, because the tastes involved are quite different, but in totally unflavoured liquid in a clean atty I can just about taste the nic ("wet dog" or "fishy"). Any flavour at all in the liquid (or remains in the atty) and it is totally gone. Can't find it however much I try. I'm pretty sure I could not ever taste it if there was even a promille citric acid added to my nic.
*Just yesterday I was hunting in our local monopoly's catalog for a cheap rosé as a substitute for something I had bought abroad. One nice service the monopoly offers is that they state sugars/gram and acids/gram. It is very interesting to compare one's perception of wines to these hard facts - there can often be more sugars/gram in a very dry wine than in a half-sweet one, if the acidity balances it.
(Beer has similar stats one can look up, only with bitterness (IBU/EBU) instead of acidity usually, there too the balance is the important thing - usually I am very very bitter-sensitive, and mostly only drink hefeweisse or Belgian wheat ales with an EBU rating of 10-16. Light lagers with an EBU of 12-24 are usually intolerable to me. But occasionally I get adventurous and let the very knowledgeable people behind the bar at a good pub choose something for me, and usually I enjoy it very much. Then I get home and look it up and find that the wonderful thing I just drank had a bitterness rating of 30+... It's all in the balance!)
Thanks for everybody's help! We are learning a lot aren't we?
Tona,
I too see parallels in wine making and e-juice making. I agree that it is all about the balance. I actually wrote something to that effect somewhere farther back in the thread. Wine makers actually use malic and tartaric acid to adjust the pH of their wine during the fermentation process. Candy makers also use malic acid to produce tart and sour tastes in candy.
Right now I'm just trying to find out at what strength the acids produce a noticeable taste or sour perception. Then I will know how much I can add to my juice before I would taste something sour. PG,VG and Ethyl Maltol are all very sweet. If we don't add acids or sour taste to our juices we will not have any balance to our juices. The acids are also used as preservatives and will slow the chemical reactions down inside of our juices. I made 7 tobacco mixes 3 days ago and added 2 drops of vinegar to each of them. They are still the same color as when I mixed them! Without the vinegar the would have for sure started to change color by now, but they are all virtually crystal clear.
I have to go to work....
I will be back later...
An update...
Tasted the acid juices this morning with about the same results. I think I am just noticing a very slight sour taste but it could also be my imagination. I am going to add 1 more drop of the now 20% dilution to each mix and let it steep for today.
See ya all later!
Pete
Tona,
I too see parallels in wine making and e-juice making. I agree that it is all about the balance. I actually wrote something to that effect somewhere farther back in the thread. Wine makers actually use malic and tartaric acid to adjust the pH of their wine during the fermentation process. Candy makers also use malic acid to produce tart and sour tastes in candy.
Right now I'm just trying to find out at what strength the acids produce a noticeable taste or sour perception. Then I will know how much I can add to my juice before I would taste something sour. PG,VG and Ethyl Maltol are all very sweet. If we don't add acids or sour taste to our juices we will not have any balance to our juices. The acids are also used as preservatives and will slow the chemical reactions down inside of our juices. I made 7 tobacco mixes 3 days ago and added 2 drops of vinegar to each of them. They are still the same color as when I mixed them! Without the vinegar the would have for sure started to change color by now, but they are all virtually crystal clear.
I have to go to work....
I will be back later...
An update...
Tasted the acid juices this morning with about the same results. I think I am just noticing a very slight sour taste but it could also be my imagination. I am going to add 1 more drop of the now 20% dilution to each mix and let it steep for today.
See ya all later!
Pete
Pete,
I've expiremented quite extensively with the 20% MA in VG and I can say this;
3 drops per 10ml is where I hit the wall. Any less is barely noticeable, at 3 to 5 drops per 10ml I get the sourness. Any more than 5 drops per 10 ml and I get a waxy mouthfeel and a burnt sugar flavor over powering everything. This is in VG, so it may be even less in PG.
3 to 5 drops is nice and complimentary to fruit flavors but gives a rancid buttermilk flavor to any tobacco or cream based flavors. Below that it gives those flavors a nice mouthfeel and rounded flavor richness.
And it will very dramatically increase in perceived flavor with aging.
I have also mixed MA solution with Citronen Limonum at 1 drop per 10ml and it TOTALLY over powered everything.
I've expiremented quite extensively with the 20% MA in VG and I can say this;
3 drops per 10ml is where I hit the wall. Any less is barely noticeable, at 3 to 5 drops per 10ml I get the sourness. Any more than 5 drops per 10 ml and I get a waxy mouthfeel and a burnt sugar flavor over powering everything. This is in VG, so it may be even less in PG.
3 to 5 drops is nice and complimentary to fruit flavors but gives a rancid buttermilk flavor to any tobacco or cream based flavors. Below that it gives those flavors a nice mouthfeel and rounded flavor richness.
And it will very dramatically increase in perceived flavor with aging.
I have also mixed MA solution with Citronen Limonum at 1 drop per 10ml and it TOTALLY over powered everything.
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Yep, that was sort of my point - the results you get from your testing with the acids in PG/VG* will only tell you at what point it goes over the threshold for balancing the inherent sweetness of PG, VG or whatever blend of that you use. Once you add either EM or any flavouring, that threshold will change (go up, is my guess, at least for EM).
Now, come to think of it, it is also probable that there are certain flavours that would lower that threshold, ie inherently balance the sweetness of PG/VG - which could be a much bigger problem than EM pushing it upwards. Let's say x amount malic acid is below the taste-threshold in plain PG, now we add flavour X, and wham the result is flavour X with a side of tart apple!
*PG and VG have slightly different profiles of "sweetness", don't they? So the taste-threshold for adding a minute amount of acidity to them is probably a bit different as well. Whether this difference is bigger than the individual variations in taste from person to person is of course hard to say. Not to mention that there could be individual variations in how much difference one perceives between PG and VG...
Oh dear, this is getting so complicated. I'm almost tempted to stop thinking about it completely, stop trying to keep accurate notes and just go with one drop of this and one drop of that straight into my cartomizer...
I wanted to try an experiment with my mix using TPA's Ry4 Type. My assumption was that any acids added would be for the goal of balancing the ph. In looking at the data sheet for the flavoring it says that it's ph is <4.5. VG is from everything I can find at a nuetral ph (7), however the flavoring is already slightly acidic, so adding more acids would drive the ph lower.
My math sucks but say 2ml flavor at <4.5ph and 8ml of VG at 7ph would get me what number? Any math or chemistry guys? Also I'm assuming the nic base (VG) is a little alkaline as the base of nicotine contains salts? Am I way off the mark here? Anyone have a MSDS for their nic base?
So is the goal here a balance of ph, or a lowering?
My math sucks but say 2ml flavor at <4.5ph and 8ml of VG at 7ph would get me what number? Any math or chemistry guys? Also I'm assuming the nic base (VG) is a little alkaline as the base of nicotine contains salts? Am I way off the mark here? Anyone have a MSDS for their nic base?
So is the goal here a balance of ph, or a lowering?
I'm not sure it is as simple as getting the right pH.
I'm not in any way certain of this, but I think human senses do not accurately sense pH*.
So even if you measured the most perfect juice you've ever vaped for pH and then set out to recreate that pH in _another juice_, the result might still be way off.
I would go as far in my guessing as to say that even if you take two liquids with the same flavouring but different nic-strengths (but nic in both, to make it a bit easier), and brought them to the same pH they would still not taste the same - my guess is that doing this would actually make them taste more different than doing nothing at all.
As I understand it, accurate pH readings and tweakings are important when it comes to making food stuff stable, inhibit growth of particular micro-organisms etc. It is not usually important wrt taste.
Some people *do* use this acidity-tweaking in cooking, the baking powder in tomato sauce trick. But most of us use acidity-balancing; some carrots or a lump of sugar or something that doesn't directly affect the pH of the sauce.
We really need a food chemist in here!
*Addendum: Just think about plain drinking water. Should be perfectly neutral, right? But the actual pH of groundwater varies between something like 6.5 and 8. And we usually do not think a particular water is "acidic" or "basic", we think it is good or not. And our tastes are different, and depending on the other trace elements in our water, we might equally like a water that is <7 and one that is >7...
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I can say that malic acid is used to in beer and wine making to alter ph in order to "dry" out the flavor. Dry being the opposite of sweet. Saliva is acidic and my line of thinking is that anything introduced to the tongue may carry better with altered ph as there is no neutralization occuring in the mouth, or more I'm not sure.
I can say for sure that when I chew certain gums with sorbitol as an ingresient, to me it totally DESTROYS juice flavor for a while. My tart juices taste like rotten molding fruit smells. I assumed this is because the sorbitol has altered the ph in the mouth, so the flavor is drastically altered.
I can say for sure that when I chew certain gums with sorbitol as an ingresient, to me it totally DESTROYS juice flavor for a while. My tart juices taste like rotten molding fruit smells. I assumed this is because the sorbitol has altered the ph in the mouth, so the flavor is drastically altered.
What I read from Flavourart, is that you don't want to alter the ph, just reduce the acid..
I just made some juice with alcohol based flavors, and made them high.. I do taste a huge difference.. It has that vendor quality everyone is looking for.. I just read that when you mix water and alcohol, it forms a slight acid.. These flavors I have contain alcohol and water..
When Im high, white castles and ice cream taste good. Let us know how they taste when you are sober.
Tona and Xmit, thanks for joining the discussion! You guys have some great ideas!
Let's keep this simple. It is all about the FLAVOR! The end result of our mixing and steeping should result in a well rounded juice flavor that lasts for a long time.
To accomplish the "lasts for a long time" our juices MUST have a low pH number. Low pH does not necessarily mean that it has to contain a lot of acid but it usually does have some acid. I agree that the amount of acid needed with each flavor will need to change depending on the particular flavor. But where to start? That is what I am trying to accomplish here. How much malic or tartaric acid would I need to add to my juice to start?
Xmid answered the question already! I tried the acid juices again and found that I can just start to taste a sour note @ 3 drops of 20% dilution per 5ml of juice. It is a very clean sensation. It is sour without any other flavor. With the lemon juice you start to taste the lemon flavor, with malic and tartaric acid you just taste sour. It is not unpleasant at all. (Gosh, flavors are soooo hard to describe!)
I am going to cut and paste a few important paragraphs from the Wikipedia article "Acids in Wine" that I think everyone should read for a better understanding of what these acids do in wine, because I think they are important in e-juice mixing.
From Wikipedia:
The acids in wine are an important component in both winemaking and the finished product of wine. They are present in both grapes and wine, having direct influences on the color, balance and taste of the wine as well as the growth and vitality of yeasts during fermentation and protecting the wine from bacteria. The measure of the amount of acidity in wine is known as the “Titratable Acidity” or “Total acidity”, which refers to the test that yields the total of all acids present, while strength of acidity is measured according to pH with most wines having a pH between 2.9–3.9. Generally, the lower the pH, the higher the acidity in the wine. However, there is no direct connection between total acidity and pH (it is possible to find wines with a high pH for wine and high acidity).[1] In wine tasting, the term “acidity” refers to the fresh, tart and sour attributes of the wine which is evaluated in relation to how well the acidity balances out the sweetness and bitter components of the wine such as tannins. There are three primary acids found in wine grapes: tartaric, malic and citric. During the course of winemaking and in the finished wines, acetic, butyric, lactic and succinic acid can play significant roles. Most of the acids involved with wine are fixed acids with the notable exception of acetic acid, mostly found in vinegar, which is volatile and can contribute to the wine fault known as volatile acidity. Sometimes additional acids are used in winemaking such as ascorbic, sorbic and sulfurous acids.[2]
And:
The acidity in wine is an important component in the quality and taste of the wine. It adds a sharpness to the flavors and is detected most readily by a prickling sensation on the sides of the tongue and a mouth watering after taste. Of particular importance is the balance of acidity versus the sweetness of the wine (the left over residual sugar) and the more bitter components of the wine (most notably tannins but also includes other phenolics). A wine with too much acidity will taste excessive sour and sharp. A wine with too little acidity will taste flabby, flat and with less defined flavors.[2]
What I think we are trying to accomplish is to lower the pH in our juices to enhance the flavors and slow the chemical reactions in our juices so they last a long time.
We have proven it works with lemon juice and vinegar, now we are trying malic acid and tartaric acid.
Xmid, do you use malic acid in your mixes? How does it turn out for you? Have you encountered any problems?
Okay...Everybody now. Have you tried the lemon juice or vinegar? What were your results? How much did you use?
Thanks in advance for all your input!
Pete
Let's keep this simple. It is all about the FLAVOR! The end result of our mixing and steeping should result in a well rounded juice flavor that lasts for a long time.
To accomplish the "lasts for a long time" our juices MUST have a low pH number. Low pH does not necessarily mean that it has to contain a lot of acid but it usually does have some acid. I agree that the amount of acid needed with each flavor will need to change depending on the particular flavor. But where to start? That is what I am trying to accomplish here. How much malic or tartaric acid would I need to add to my juice to start?
Xmid answered the question already! I tried the acid juices again and found that I can just start to taste a sour note @ 3 drops of 20% dilution per 5ml of juice. It is a very clean sensation. It is sour without any other flavor. With the lemon juice you start to taste the lemon flavor, with malic and tartaric acid you just taste sour. It is not unpleasant at all. (Gosh, flavors are soooo hard to describe!)
I am going to cut and paste a few important paragraphs from the Wikipedia article "Acids in Wine" that I think everyone should read for a better understanding of what these acids do in wine, because I think they are important in e-juice mixing.
From Wikipedia:
The acids in wine are an important component in both winemaking and the finished product of wine. They are present in both grapes and wine, having direct influences on the color, balance and taste of the wine as well as the growth and vitality of yeasts during fermentation and protecting the wine from bacteria. The measure of the amount of acidity in wine is known as the “Titratable Acidity” or “Total acidity”, which refers to the test that yields the total of all acids present, while strength of acidity is measured according to pH with most wines having a pH between 2.9–3.9. Generally, the lower the pH, the higher the acidity in the wine. However, there is no direct connection between total acidity and pH (it is possible to find wines with a high pH for wine and high acidity).[1] In wine tasting, the term “acidity” refers to the fresh, tart and sour attributes of the wine which is evaluated in relation to how well the acidity balances out the sweetness and bitter components of the wine such as tannins. There are three primary acids found in wine grapes: tartaric, malic and citric. During the course of winemaking and in the finished wines, acetic, butyric, lactic and succinic acid can play significant roles. Most of the acids involved with wine are fixed acids with the notable exception of acetic acid, mostly found in vinegar, which is volatile and can contribute to the wine fault known as volatile acidity. Sometimes additional acids are used in winemaking such as ascorbic, sorbic and sulfurous acids.[2]
And:
The acidity in wine is an important component in the quality and taste of the wine. It adds a sharpness to the flavors and is detected most readily by a prickling sensation on the sides of the tongue and a mouth watering after taste. Of particular importance is the balance of acidity versus the sweetness of the wine (the left over residual sugar) and the more bitter components of the wine (most notably tannins but also includes other phenolics). A wine with too much acidity will taste excessive sour and sharp. A wine with too little acidity will taste flabby, flat and with less defined flavors.[2]
What I think we are trying to accomplish is to lower the pH in our juices to enhance the flavors and slow the chemical reactions in our juices so they last a long time.
We have proven it works with lemon juice and vinegar, now we are trying malic acid and tartaric acid.
Xmid, do you use malic acid in your mixes? How does it turn out for you? Have you encountered any problems?
Okay...Everybody now. Have you tried the lemon juice or vinegar? What were your results? How much did you use?
Thanks in advance for all your input!
Pete
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