Virginia (mis)interpretation of statute regarding e-cigarettes

[JoeD4]

To my mind, the fight should not be about whether or not we can vape indoors. It ought to be about whether we can vape at all. As for our vapor being harmless, perhaps the PG/VG component could be shown as harmless but the truth of the matter is that most of us are vaping some level of nicotine. Nicotine is in our exhaled vapor in some quantity. People have a right to not be exposed to the nicotine. That is what it will come down to if we push this indoor vaping thing. It will give vapers a bad image and, as we all know, when it comes to public opinion it all boils down to perception. We are (in essence) contending for the right to force others to be exposed to our vapor whether they like it or not. I have no problem taking my 510 outside especially if that means that John/Jane Doe won't have a problem with e-cigs. I know that some foods contain minute traces of nicotine but they will just argue that they have the right to choose when, how, where, and "if" they are exposed to nicotine. People are scared of the "N" word. Let's not piss them off some more. There is a vape friendly bar right down the street from me but I always check with the people seated around me before I hit the button on my 510. It's just polite and I believe that THEY have as much a right not to breathe nicotine as I have to breathe it. When it comes to indoor vaping, let's err to the margin of caution and consider the rights of others first. I believe that that kind of thinking is what will further our cause with regards to avoiding totall banning of e-cigs. Just my 2 cents.

 

[rothenbj]

To my mind, the fight should not be about whether or not we can vape indoors. It ought to be about whether we can vape at all. As for our vapor being harmless, perhaps the PG/VG component could be shown as harmless but the truth of the matter is that most of us are vaping some level of nicotine. Nicotine is in our exhaled vapor in some quantity. People have a right to not be exposed to the nicotine. That is what it will come down to if we push this indoor vaping thing. It will give vapers a bad image and, as we all know, when it comes to public opinion it all boils down to perception. We are (in essence) contending for the right to force others to be exposed to our vapor whether they like it or not. I have no problem taking my 510 outside especially if that means that John/Jane Doe won't have a problem with e-cigs. I know that some foods contain minute traces of nicotine but they will just argue that they have the right to choose when, how, where, and "if" they are exposed to nicotine. People are scared of the "N" word. Let's not piss them off some more. There is a vape friendly bar right down the street from me but I always check with the people seated around me before I hit the button on my 510. It's just polite and I believe that THEY have as much a right not to breathe nicotine as I have to breathe it. When it comes to indoor vaping, let's err to the margin of caution and consider the rights of others first. I believe that that kind of thinking is what will further our cause with regards to avoiding totall banning of e-cigs. Just my 2 cents.

Anti-tobacco Nazi junk science at its finest and we want to propagate it, I'm not sure. When I can tell the woman that sits down beside me and stinks to high heaven from perfume to take it outside until she no longer smells, I'll agree with you.

I'm close to zero nic vaping at this point. Would you have me go outside with the smokers since perception is reality and "it looks like I'm smoking"?

Next you'll be asked to go outside to use a portion of snus since when you exhale, you may be putting nicotine in the air. Besides, soon you won't be able to go outside to smoke, vape, or use smokeless since a child may see you. Do it at home only and outside if you have children. Okay, rant over.

 

[Vocalek]

To my mind, the fight should not be about whether or not we can vape indoors. It ought to be about whether we can vape at all. As for our vapor being harmless, perhaps the PG/VG component could be shown as harmless but the truth of the matter is that most of us are vaping some level of nicotine. Nicotine is in our exhaled vapor in some quantity. People have a right to not be exposed to the nicotine. That is what it will come down to if we push this indoor vaping thing. It will give vapers a bad image and, as we all know, when it comes to public opinion it all boils down to perception. We are (in essence) contending for the right to force others to be exposed to our vapor whether they like it or not. I have no problem taking my 510 outside especially if that means that John/Jane Doe won't have a problem with e-cigs. I know that some foods contain minute traces of nicotine but they will just argue that they have the right to choose when, how, where, and "if" they are exposed to nicotine. People are scared of the "N" word. Let's not piss them off some more. There is a vape friendly bar right down the street from me but I always check with the people seated around me before I hit the button on my 510. It's just polite and I believe that THEY have as much a right not to breathe nicotine as I have to breathe it. When it comes to indoor vaping, let's err to the margin of caution and consider the rights of others first. I believe that that kind of thinking is what will further our cause with regards to avoiding totall banning of e-cigs. Just my 2 cents.

Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled

Second hand mist from an e-cigarette is not smoke at all, and does not contain any substance known to cause death, short or long term, in the quantities found. It becomes invisible within a few seconds, and is not detectable by smell.

Exhaled breath after e-cigarette use has been tested for CO only. No increase in CO was found.

The e-cigarette does not create side-stream smoke. Exhaled breath after e-smoking contains even less nicotine per puff, as much of the nicotine inhaled is absorbed. Similarly, propylene glycol is largely absorbed and little is exhaled.

If exhaled nicotine delivers enough of a dose to get bystanders hooked, why weren't the bystandsers getting hooked when smoking regular tobacco was still allowed indoors?

The Nicotrol Rx inhaler does not come with a warning to avoid exhaling around non-smokers.

Erowid Tobacco Vault : Article #1

The Nicotrol inhaler is a plastic mouthpiece with a nicotine "plug.'' It allows smokers to inhale vaporized nicotine and satisfy their urge for an oral "smoke'' while giving them a total of only about one-third of the nicotine in a cigarette. In addition, while it takes smokers about 10 puffs of a cigarette to inhale 1 mg of nicotine, the inhaler requires between 70 and 80 puffs, the company said.

At the rate reported by Health New Zealand, (0.01 mg per puff), it would take 100 puffs from an electronic cigarettes to take in 1 mg. of nicotine.

Also see: http://www.ecassoc.org/downloads/Response-to-the-FDA-Summary.pdf

I found this interesting:

For comparison of nicotine delivered to the user by an FDA approved device, the Nicotrol® inhaler inhalation package comes to the user as 168 10 mg cartridges. Recommended dosage is 6–16 cartridges daily. The manufacturer recommends an intensive inhalation regimen (80 deep inhalations over 20 minutes), which releases on the average 4 mg of the nicotine content of each cartridge. If each breath is approximately 100 cc or 100 mL in volume as is typically assumed, then 4 mg/80 (100 mL) breaths would yield 0.05 mg nicotine/puff or 50 mcg per puff, which is actually more than the highest amount of nicotine delivered by the NJOY menthol high cartridge according to FDA tests.

80 Deep inhalations over 20 minutes? Wow, that is a LOT more puffing than I do on my e-cigarette. But then again, the technology is different.

 

[Unperson]

I think part of JoeD4's message was valid. We are trying to get e-cigs accepted by not just the agencies that are condemning them, but also by the general public. Let's face it, the masses are not generally known as being openly accepting of alien concepts. Particularly ones that are closely related to taboo subjects like smoking.

Do I think I should be able to smoke in all areas? Yes; wholeheartedly. Do I think that is going to happen just because I wish it? No; sadly. Do I think that is going to change? Yes; provisionally.

Part of JoeD4's message made sense to me. Before we can rattle sabers over the use of a PV in public, we need to establish the use of a PV.. ..at all. Let's pick our battles. Let's get the PV legal, then we can argue the use of them in all areas. As it stands, they are being labeled improperly and cited as being dangerous. Before we can tell everyone that we should be able to use them everywhere, we need to get rid of the misinformation that they are not safe.

Otherwise, it is possible for some to echo those ...... over at the FDA that we can't vape at the table next to them because e-cigs are the tool of the debbil!*

* Quote from Mama Boucher (Waterboy)

 

[yvilla]

Besides the info from Dr. Laugesen, quoted above, here are what a few other experts say about using ecigs around bystanders:

“All that's happening is you're heating up a liquid to the point of becoming a vapor. So referring to it as smoke doesn't make sense at all. Therefore, considering it subject to a smoking ban doesn't really make sense, either.”
— Dr. David Baron, Chief of Staff at UCLA Medical Center, from a video interview YouTube - Electronic Cigarette Dr David Baron 1 of 2

“There is no existing evidence that e-cigarettes pose a risk for nonsmokers. The nicotine exposure from the exhaled vapor produced is likely to be extremely small and there is no reason to think that it poses a danger for nonsmokers. But there is certainly no evidence to suggest that it poses a hazard.”
— Dr. Michael Siegel, Professor of Social and Behavioral Sciences, Boston University School of Public Health, who also has 20 years of experience in Tobacco Control (TobaccoAnalysis.blogspot.com)

“The claim that the trivial amount of vapor would be much of a risk seems ridiculously far-fetched.”
— Dr. Carl Phillips, Associate Professor at the University of Alberta School of Public Health (TobaccoHarmReduction.org)

“There is substantial and compelling scientific research documenting that consuming the ingredients in e-cigarettes (nicotine, propylene glycol, water and flavors) is vastly safer than burning tobacco and inhaling 3000+ toxic by-products. Claiming that e-cigarettes are dangerous for non-smokers is about as credible as claiming that air travel is dangerous for people who never set foot in an airplane.”
— Dr. Brad Rodu, Professor of Medicine at the University of Louisville (Three Professors of Medicine Examine ASH Health Claims)

"Smoking bans have been universally justified on the basis of the risk posed by environmental tobacco smoke to non-smokers. Most of the air pollution due to cigarettes is due to sidestream smoke – the smoke that curls off the end of the cigarette when no one is puffing on it. E-cigarettes have no sidestream smoke. E-cigarettes also have none of the toxic products of combustion produced by conventional cigarettes. It is therefore unreasonable to ban them on the basis of risk to non-smokers.
— Dr. Joel Nitzkin, Chair, Tobacco Control Task Force, American Association of Public Health Physicians. http://www.aaphp.org/special/joelstobac/ecigcontext.pdf

 

[rothenbj]

I think part of JoeD4's message was valid. We are trying to get e-cigs accepted by not just the agencies that are condemning them, but also by the general public. Let's face it, the masses are not generally known as being openly accepting of alien concepts. Particularly ones that are closely related to taboo subjects like smoking.

Do I think I should be able to smoke in all areas? Yes; wholeheartedly. Do I think that is going to happen just because I wish it? No; sadly. Do I think that is going to change? Yes; provisionally.

Part of JoeD4's message made sense to me. Before we can rattle sabers over the use of a PV in public, we need to establish the use of a PV.. ..at all. Let's pick our battles. Let's get the PV legal, then we can argue the use of them in all areas. As it stands, they are being labeled improperly and cited as being dangerous. Before we can tell everyone that we should be able to use them everywhere, we need to get rid of the misinformation that they are not safe.

Otherwise, it is possible for some to echo those ...... over at the FDA that we can't vape at the table next to them because e-cigs are the tool of the debbil!*

* Quote from Mama Boucher (Waterboy)

If that is the case, we might as well give up right now. Now hear me- we will never, never, never,,,,,never, get these "health" organizations on board. We do not provide them with the juice that they are kept alive with and we never will be capable of doing so. The reason the Pharma industry has all that money is because they sell products at exorbitant prices and make huge profits. They sell NRTs that they know people will be back for future attempts at huge profits.

Our best chance is to be around non-smokers and ex-smokers and have them realize that these things are NOT cigarettes. They do NOT smell badly (I've had quite a few comment about how nice my strawberry cheesecake smells). I vape everywhere I go. I vape more than I have to and I vape nominal levels of nicotine at this point when I'm out in public.

I have to bottles of juice, one is full strength, 18mg is full strength for me at this point, and a low 4 to 8mg mix that I use in public settings. I'll probably be writing in another month or so and talking about vaping zero nic in public. I'd do it now, but I'm weening carefully to make sure I stay comfortable.

I feel our best chance is to get two things. First, get more of us. That seems to be the most difficult battle. I haven't run into anyone using them on a long term basis. Most went to the mall and you know what happens. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Second, we need to develop friends that don't smoke. I have staunch anti-smokers comfortable with my vaping, even commenting on why more aren't doing it. Sales, sales, sales.....

I'm seriously thinking about selling off my 510s (well supplied and my two Chucks will cover all my needs) to those that get serious about trying it. That at least gets a good unit into their hands, but I'm reluctant to do it because I really think it helps to get on this web site and learn. We won't talk about lazy, but.......

 

[Vocalek]

Has it occurred to anyone that it might be easier to get the general public to realize PVs are not dangerous than to get somebody like Henningfield to change his mind? He has staked his professional reputation on the idea that it is impossible to quit smoking without giving up nicotine. I don't know how many years somebody has to go being a former smoker who uses nicotine from some other source to get him to admit it is possible. There are tons of snus users in Sweden who have not smoked in decades and will probably not light up another cigarette for the rest of their lives.

To me, it seems a blooming miracle that I have not inhaled cigarette smoke for over a year. It's the longest smoke-free period for me in 45 years.

In 1633 Galileo Galilei was convicted of grave suspicion of heresy for "following the position of Copernicus, which is contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture,"[96] and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.

Nicolaus Copernicus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The men who imprisoned Galileo sincerely believed that the sun moves around the earth and took that belief to their graves. We need to keep shouting, "Nevertheless, it moves."

 

[Unperson]

Our best chance is to be around non-smokers and ex-smokers and have them realize that these things are NOT cigarettes.

When I first started vaping, I would use my PV everywhere. On a doctor appointment, I used my PV in the waiting room and when my doctor came into the examining room, I proudly showed off my PV and told my doctor that I quit cigarettes. My doctor applauded this news and didn't mind when I took a couple of draws from the PV right there in the room.

A couple of weeks later I visited a cardiologist (I've had two heart attacks) and I showed him my PV and asked if he was familiar with them. He said, "Oh, that's one of those nicotine inhalers" (the descriptive term for a PV usually used by Europeans). Like my doctor, he didn't have a problem with me using it in the examining room.

A week later, I visited my doctor again. Only this time, my doctor asked me not to use my PV in the examining room. I was surprised. I tried to explain that the PV is harmless, but my doctor stated that she could smell it and didn't want other patients to think that someone had smoked in the room. I again tried to stress that the PV is harmless, has no smoke, no second-hand risks, etc., but my doctor was adamant about me not using it. So.. ..I must respect her wishes.

It doesn't matter if I'm right. It doesn't matter if my doctor is unaware of the facts. The bottom line is that it is her office and I need to respect that. I live in a state where a merchant can deny services to any customer and ask the individual to leave the establishment without having to state why the merchant is denying service. Because of this, it is unwise to beat your chest and defend your rights unless you are willing to risk never being able to enter a particular business again.

In the end, while we (vapers) have rights, so does everyone else. While I am the first person to admit that the average intelligence level of the entire human species is dropping at an alarming rate and that ignorance and apathy are replacing knowledge and curiosity, it is what it is.

If you've ever tried to educate an individual with special needs, then you know that you will be able to teach some things, but not everything. Even the things you are able to get across may be lost in a day or two. We live in a world where we can't even come together on even fundamental points. We can't even decide on one God, never mind all being on the same page with something like the e-cig.

I'll start with the world allowing me to keep my e-cig, then I'll worry about the world allowing me to use it in their parlor.

...some people think I'm an unreasonable upstart. Go figure.