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volts/amps/ohms explained in detail on single and dual coil atty/cartos

Discussion in 'VV/VW APV Discussion' started by Krprice84, Mar 15, 2012.

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  1. MickeyRat

    MickeyRat Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 4, 2011
    Hickory, NC
    Not so sure. All things being equal, you'd need half the vapor coming of each of the two coils to equal the same vapor coming off one coil.
     
  2. John D in CT

    John D in CT Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 27, 2012
    Connecticut
    That might actually be the case if the single coil is at our hypothetical optimal temperature of 400F and each of the dual coils is at 200F, if that is in fact truly how this works.

    But leaving that aside, I'm still just trying to figure out if my entire hypothesis about giving a dual coil twice as much wattage as a single coil makes sense according to the laws of physics. See if you can keep wrapping your brain around this whole deal. This has been an interesting thread so far, and I really want to get to the bottom of this whole thing.

    Oh, and forgive me for not mentioning this a lot sooner, but I am so sorry to hear that weasels ripped your flesh. That happens to be one of my pet peeves, and the main reason that weasels are not allowed in my house.
     
  3. MickeyRat

    MickeyRat Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 4, 2011
    Hickory, NC
    I think you're just about there on the dual coils. The weasels thing is a reference to an old Frank Zappa album. It fits in with the MickeyRat thing.

    Let me google that for you :)
     
  4. Krprice84

    Krprice84 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    and yes john d, you are correct... to get each coil in a dc setup to the same temp as a single coil setup you would need to beputting double the power as for a single coil setup with the same resistance coil as each coil in the dual coil unit
     
  5. Krprice84

    Krprice84 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    and the candle example wouldn't be accurate because the time is not constant.... you are spreading the wind blown at the candle over two times the amount of time

    a more accurate representation would be having two people blowing on a candle with 0.5x the wind speed as the one person that just barely blows it out with a single blow. if the two people blow on it at the same time and the resulting vector of the wind velocity is equal to the single blow, then yes, it will blow the candle out
     
  6. John D in CT

    John D in CT Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 27, 2012
    Connecticut
    I'm ashamed that I didn't get the reference. I love Frank Zappa, but clearly not as well as I should.

    I do think of him frequently; he just came up the other day in fact. One of my gigs is removing trees; I was doing a job a couple of weeks ago and I called the homeowner's attention to a big maple that had a big sucker growing out of it, right from the base. (Do you already know where I'm going with this?) :)

    I said to him "this tree reminds me of a Frank Zappa song called 'Billy the Mountain', who had a tree named Ethel growing off of his shoulder. The big maple is Billy, and that sucker is Ethel, and Ethel has got to go". I swear I'm not making this up. :)

    Here, you might like this; it's very nicely done:

    FRANK ZAPPA - Billy The Mountain - A CAPPELLA part 1 - YouTube

    And I knew you didn't really get your face ripped by weasels; that's just me being goofy as usual. :)

    Yeah, I knew the candle analogy sucked the minute I wrote it. :( Oh well, can't hit a home run every time at bat.

    Glad you rejoined the thread, and thanks for starting it in the first place. I learned a lot, and don't think I would have even consider the dual coil/double the watts thing without it.
     
  7. MickeyRat

    MickeyRat Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 4, 2011
    Hickory, NC
    If you don't remember the times, you can't imagine how different something like this one sounded in the '60s.

     
  8. John D in CT

    John D in CT Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 27, 2012
    Connecticut
    Ah yes, a little "Ruben and the Jets" ... nice ...

    Hey, I'm 58, and I lived through those times ... so of course I don't remember them. :)

    Heck, I even saw the Beatles in Baltimore, summer of '64. Beach Boys in '64 also, Doors in '71, the Dead a few times ... but I was never a huge concert-goer. Maybe when you start with the Beatles, not much else gets you really amped up.

    Zappa was a genius though, no doubt about it.
     
  9. sandscards

    sandscards Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 6, 2012
    Broken Arrow, OK
    I've been following and it is making a little sense. Even the candle analogy and explanation helped. It seems I would have to put double the wattage to a 1.5 dual coil (two 3 ohm coils) as I would to a 1.5 single coil to get the same heat from each of the three coils. Makes sense to my old mind. I understand I am ignoring the surface area and assuming saturation and all that. So, it sounds like when using an ego or lower voltage device the advantage would definately go to the single coil. The question would be with a vv device capable of delivering the needed wattage to the dual coils, would they or should they perform better than the single coil at the lower wattage? It seems the dual coils would have an advantage at that level.
     
  10. John D in CT

    John D in CT Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 27, 2012
    Connecticut
    I think you're exactly right, assuming what we've been assuming - ideal saturation of both the upper and lower coil. I can't see anything close to that being achieved in a stand-alone carto, at least not consistently, but it might be much more readily achieved inside a good tank with a properly punched or slotted carto. Definitely something to experiment with, especially after getting a Provari [ed. - or equivalent, if such a thing exists]. I'm also going to have to be much more diligent about labeling/marking my cartos. I have quite a few stainless steel XL cartos right now, and I don't know which are single and which are dual, or if there's a way to tell other than ripping them apart.

    Anyone?
     
  11. invididual

    invididual Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 11, 2012
    Lakeland, FL
    someone should really sticky this thread, its very helpful
     
  12. Keekers

    Keekers Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 2, 2011
    Michigan
    THANK YOU OP!!!!!! I have been looking for this answer for a while now because I want to get the VV REO. Oh my gosh thank you so much. This is exactly what I needed. *bookmarked* :nun:

    This should most definitely be a Sticky. I've looked everywhere and haven't found any description as good and understandable as yours.
     
  13. Krprice84

    Krprice84 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    thanks for the likes and kind words guys... i'm glad this thread helps, and i'm glad there's been so much discussion going on in it. i didn't mean to sound liek a deuschbag before, i just was getting irritated before with other stuff on the forums and took it out here

    to address the sc/dc heat issue, yes, it is correct that to get both coils to the optimum temp you would need double the power of an sc with the same resistance coil as each coil in a dc. having said that, we really can't (in a real world situation) assume that the conditions are ideal, in fact, by design they cannot be, as the coils are one on top of each other, so after the first vape (and even before that one, unless it is taken pretty much RIGHT away after filling), there will naturally be slightly (and ever more so) less juice at the top coil compared to the bottom one

    and yes, in theory, a dc *should* work better on a provari or similar, as compared to an ego-type (which, really, shouldn't be used with a dc cart because if the resistance is low enough to get a decent temperature, then you're likely going to pull too much current for the battery.

    why i qualify the last statement is, i own a provari, and from experience, if you supply it with the power per coil equal to that of a single coil, you are creating much more total heat within a similar volume device, and are therefore creating (much) more vapor, this in turn will use up the juice that much quicker in the carto, and thus, dry out the top one even faster, thus ruining the flavour of the vapor, as even if the bottom one is saturated the top one isn't, and thus will start to dry burn

    even with a tank, which will alieviate some of this problem, the slot/hole is always at the bottom of the carto, so, while some juice will wick up to the top, it will never be quite as saturated as the bottom one. one possible solution is to cut two smaller slots, each in line with the mid or upper line of each coil, but then obivously you would have to keep the tank full above the top slot, or the purpose will be defeated...*sigh*
     
  14. bajaboggs

    bajaboggs Full Member

    May 5, 2012
    San Ysidro
    WOW, this was helpful. Question: Where does the "8 watts is best" come from. Is that widely agreed upon? I JUST got my provari, and am playing with different settings. I have a 3.0 ohm carto and set it to 5.5 volts and instantly got a burnt taste, I guess i ruined the carto. I'm at work, so can't change it out and try something else, so I'm vaping on my jazz-carto- pipe for the rest of the day. Still nice though ;)
     
  15. MrWarspite

    MrWarspite Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Mar 20, 2012
    North Carolina
    There is no "best" wattage. Every carto/atomizer has a different sweet spot with every juice. I vape anywhere from 5.5watts up to 12 watts depending on what juice i have in what carto
     
  16. Boognish

    Boognish Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 7, 2012
    Chocolate Town
    CCV has them and I'm using one right now in my 5ml DCT tank. It's rockin' at 5 volts and beyond......and it's awesome:p
     
  17. John D in CT

    John D in CT Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 27, 2012
    Connecticut
    As Mr said, there is no one wattage that is best for all juices or user preferences. That is the obvious advantage of a variable voltage device, which no one who vapes should go without, especially since the arrival of the Joyetech Twist. VV from 3.2v to 4.8v for $30 or less. Or a rebadged Lavatube for about twice that. Or any one of many others. Just get one if you are reading this and you haven't.

    From what you have said, it is imposssible to rule out the possiblity that the polyfill was insufficiently saturated with juice before the coil was energized. Have to rule that out before reaching any real conclusions. I fill them from both top and bottom (condom method for the bottom) before firing it off. A hot coil will instantly char and permanently ruin dry polyfill. "Don't rush the carto" is one of my catch-phrases.
     
  18. motox

    motox Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 30, 2010
    Poinciana, FL
    Thanks to everyone who added to this thread - undoubtedly one of the most educational experiences I've had on ECF! I'm not sure why I started with dual coil cartomizers, probably because they came with my first tank, but all of this makes a lot of sense. Based on what I have read here, I picked up a handful of 3 ohm single coil tank cartos and have been using them over the past couple of days. The verdict is that I get similar performance at lower voltage and my battery life is noticeably extended on my provari. Anyone who uses a provari mini with the small batteries should read this and try moving to single coil tank cartos.
     
  19. MickeyRat

    MickeyRat Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 4, 2011
    Hickory, NC
    There are lots of situations in physics, chemistry, and engineering where you assume ideal conditions to get to an answer even though you know that conditions are never truly ideal. You can't know that both coils in a DC are equally saturated. You can't know that they will both wick at the same rate while in use. In fact, you know that neither of those conditions are likely to be 100% true. I'm not even sure that given the effect of temperature. pressure, variations in components of juice etc. that it's even possible to know how far off you will be in all situations. However, you can assume that those variations are minor considering the much larger effect of variations in the power at the colis.

    To be honest though, I seriously doubt that PV manufacturers have spent any time or money researching these questions.
     
  20. Jabbathewocket

    Jabbathewocket Full Member

    May 3, 2012
    lakeland, Florida
    Look theoretical info is great as is a basic understanding of what is going on in these devices.. but everyone here is ignoring something very basic.. its a concept called reality..

    The reality is that 9/10 cartomizers or atomizers of a given rating will *not* perform at that rating.. variances in the final assembled product, (atomizer, battery, electronics in the device, juice, cartridge all of it) will make it impossible to achieve identical results every time..

    Add in the variances in manufacturing, design of cartridge/cartomizers as others have mentioned..

    And finally toss in the fact that the design of dual coil cartos and tanks are self defeating.. (more on this later) and all you can do is find the sweet spot for you PERSONALLY be it a single coil LR atomizer on an ego battery or some dual coil madness on a 17 volt quad battery machine..

    It would be far easier for people to offer their opinions on certain combos of juice and settings and consumables on various devices.. IE "i find that my ego works best with boge single coil carto @this resistance offers a great mix of warmth, throat hit and taste with this brand of juice"

    I would say its nigh on impossible to pull 2 cartos out of the same box and get exactly the same vape every time.. there are just too many variables at play.. accept that you have to find your own sweet spots.. its nearly the same as the VG PG 1 2 3 hole debates.. if your draw on the thing is high and you have alot of holes in the carto... and you vape at low wattage you *will* flood the damn carto EVERY TIME.. if you have a light draw and use a single hole with thick juice you will find that every carto you get will taste burnt..

    Anyhow.. math is not the solution when discussing things that are as subjective as "vapor production" and "carto choices" its way too subjective.. even when we where all smoking burning tobacco it was incredibly subjective.. just because it is electronic now.. does not do away with the subjective part (tossing in the variety of flavors its become far more subjective IMO these days)
     
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