WESH: Smokeless Cigarettes Deliver Nicotine Electronically

[green-lantern]

Anyone who wants to inhale anything other than air is going to be demonised by them, and if you want to give up smoking, they'll only approve an inhalator that looks like a tampon and tastes of stale tic tacs. And then only on sufferance and with gleeful condescension (I'm sure they'd make us wear yellow stars on our sleeves if they could!)

LOL Nice

[rant]
Or another way is to support the idea that forcing American business owners to produce the type of business that the government wants is wrong and that bans in adult establishments where children are not permitted is anti-free market and definitely Anti-American. We talk choice. Well adults have the choice to go into a bar that allows smoking or not.

Next thing you know, when you are born, they will slap a label on your ... telling you that you are going to only be a bread maker and you will sell your loaves for 50 cents.

Just saying... there is something way deeper going on here and it is a travesty. Smoking bans are just the next step into total control.

To ban or not to ban? That is the new American question.

[/rant]

Right on the money sweetheart!

This is NOT about our safety it’s about control. You evil smokers have found a way around paying the taxes that you where paying when smoking analogs. The government has a new healthcare plan to pay for and you are not doing your part. You are taking health care from kids.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

You evil smokers have found a way around paying the taxes that you where paying when smoking analogs. The government has a new healthcare plan to pay for and you are not doing your part. You are taking health care from kids.

Is this how you meant it to read? Is this the argument you are making?

 

[jamie]

Is this how you meant it to read? Is this the argument you are making?

I believe that was sarcasm.

 

[fatman]

You evil smokers have found a way around paying the taxes that you where paying when smoking analogs.

I don't think this is a tax issue. The federal government hasn't cared about balancing books or fiscal responsibility for ages. This is about the continuing dumbing down of governance issues by small, but vigorous, special interest groups that spout nonsense that "reporters" are only happy to copy down word for word. And these SIGs don't care about nicotine addiction - they don't like *smoking* and so they will prevent anyone from smoking.

I agree that this about choice - but that is a much larger fight. TB is right that is we want a fast, effective solution, it is about regulation. The "choice" fight may be morally superior and more gratifying to win, but it may also be tilting at windmills.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

I believe that was sarcasm.

I was hoping so

 

[green-lantern]

I believe that was sarcasm.

I thought it was obvious.


My tax rant was probably in the wrong thread. Lacey got me spun up on the government. I’m just really tired of the way this country is being ran into the ground.

 

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

My tax rant was probably in the wrong thread. Lacey got me spun up on the government. I’m just really tired of the way this country is being ran into the ground.

I hear you man.... Rant while you can.... one day you won't be able to without being labeled with the almighty T-word.... 1st amendment...huh? what's the first amendment????

 

[Boomer]

This is making me crazy and i haven't even got my damn e-cig yet, i have already decided that when it comes to pack up real fags all together and just vape, but before i have even started it seems that people are trying to stop me.

There missing the point entirely! What sort of an argument is it that they might not be 100% safe when the alternative is 100% UNSAFE it's utter crap and it really really pi**es me off the fact that i am helpless to do anything or even get this idea into the numbskulls heads.

I think im just going to try and avoid this part of the forum as to be honest it just makes me angry and feel helpless to do anything about it.

When i signed up for the forum i got that sign the pettition thing and to be honest i just closed it but now im going to try and find it and fill it in.

We need to have a big voice in an important place on our side if we have any chance of winning this. What chance to a small group of vapers have against the big tobacco companys, pharmaceutical companys, and goverments who play along with them.

Sorry about my pointless rant it does nothing to help and brings nothing new to the table i just feel so angry and small.

Lee.

 

[orlampagal]

OMG that is hilarious! The nicotrol costs 2x as much as the ecigarette, and from what I read, it burns your throat, and has very little affect on your desire to smoke. I agree with the tampon comment tho, it certainly does look like that and I would be afraid of the gestapo coming to take me in on a baker act if I were to whip one of those tampon looking things out and attempt to "smoke" it. HAHA

 

[Hangar]

You know folks...as both a new comer and heavy analog smoker for 30+ years (who wishes ecigs complete success if its truly safe and effective in making users healthier) I have to make an observation here...and I hope some of you wont take offense because it comes from the heart and i think its a valid point that we (as users AND non users) should try to remember before bashing each other so much as I've seen both on these forums and elsewhere in the media:

Scientifically speaking...NOBODY yet knows TRULY what EXACT health concerns there may or may not be when heating nicotine/PG/and other ingredients together in certain amounts at certain temperatures and then inhaling those fumes/vapor/gases into your lungs. It may be no more harmful than the patch, OR it may be capable of significantly more damage. It's easy for some of us who are desperate to get off analog smoking to sit here and say, "ahhh it cant be as harmful as real cigarettes"...but you know what?...thats a completely non-scientific assumption and truly has no relevance...no more relevance than those anti-smokers who will bash it just because they can visually see the "vapor/steam" coming out of a users mouth when exhaling and assume its harmful.

Truth be told, for this e-cig to gain in popularity and public acceptance (which we ALL want to happen) it WILL need to be fully and officially tested in a proper setting over time, and there WILL need to be certain industry standards globally applied in manufacturing at least the carts/liquids, if not the hardware as well. This is only a logical step in the evolution of what MIGHT be a terrific product. But whether or not it can be considered safe for us and those around us NEEDS to be proven so that one way or another one of the groups (pro or con) will finally shut up already and have a seat, lol.

I dont know about YOU, but I hate the fact that i have to order this stuff from people acting like businesses who i dont even know or trust and THEN HOPE it wont make me sicker than real cigarettes already have. It would be nice to know I can get it from trusted sources locally and that someone will be held responsible in seeing that guidelines are strictly adhered to in manufacturing the crap im inhaling all day long into my lungs.

It may really suck that we might have to put this on hold for awhile until the politics and red tape all gets unwound...but in the end, at least the act of vaping might be publicly seen as something more responsible than it is right now and we'll be able to hold our "ecigs" high when out in public instead of hiding them.

Press and bash all you like for what you want folks...but having real scientific proof backing you up first, should be a prerequisite for an intelligent argument...and unfortunately neither side has that (yet).

 

[Lorddrek]

This thread was stickyed and policed to solicit ideas for action against the looming threat of the FDA. We all have ideas on why the opposition is so geared up. But what can we do?

It has been suggested (And done) that we write letters to our Senators and Congressmen. What to actually say has been a topic of debate.

Contact has been made with some players on our side. Good lines of communication have been established there.

I have suggested a drive to get new users on board. I have not gotten any feedback on this. I see no harm and a possible great benefit to all by doing this. The hoarders have hoarded. Now it's time to feed the masses.

I think with all the money being thrown around the suppliers should think about pitching in and getting a good lawyer. After all they are our front line.

Any other suggestions on some sort of action that can take place now?

Lorddrek

 

[Boomer]

To be honest the odds that they are going to be more harmfull than cigarettes is very small but just say they are.

So what if they are harmful? I should still have the right to use them though should i not? Or am i only allowed to kill myself if the government and a load of other people are getting a wedge off the top?

 

[MisterPuck]

You know folks...as both a new comer and heavy analog smoker for 30+ years (who wishes ecigs complete success if its truly safe and effective in making users healthier) I have to make an observation here...and I hope some of you wont take offense because it comes from the heart and i think its a valid point that we (as users AND non users) should try to remember before bashing each other so much as I've seen both on these forums and elsewhere in the media:

Scientifically speaking...NOBODY yet knows TRULY what EXACT health concerns there may or may not be when heating nicotine/PG/and other ingredients together in certain amounts at certain temperatures and then inhaling those fumes/vapor/gases into your lungs. It may be no more harmful than the patch, OR it may be capable of significantly more damage. It's easy for some of us who are desperate to get off analog smoking to sit here and say, "ahhh it cant be as harmful as real cigarettes"...but you know what?...thats a completely non-scientific assumption and truly has no relevance...no more relevance than those anti-smokers who will bash it just because they can visually see the "vapor/steam" coming out of a users mouth when exhaling and assume its harmful.

Truth be told, for this e-cig to gain in popularity and public acceptance (which we ALL want to happen) it WILL need to be fully and officially tested in a proper setting over time, and there WILL need to be certain industry standards globally applied in manufacturing at least the carts/liquids, if not the hardware as well. This is only a logical step in the evolution of what MIGHT be a terrific product. But whether or not it can be considered safe for us and those around us NEEDS to be proven so that one way or another one of the groups (pro or con) will finally shut up already and have a seat, lol.

I dont know about YOU, but I hate the fact that i have to order this stuff from people acting like businesses who i dont even know or trust and THEN HOPE it wont make me sicker than real cigarettes already have. It would be nice to know I can get it from trusted sources locally and that someone will be held responsible in seeing that guidelines are strictly adhered to in manufacturing the crap im inhaling all day long into my lungs.

It may really suck that we might have to put this on hold for awhile until the politics and red tape all gets unwound...but in the end, at least the act of vaping might be publicly seen as something more responsible than it is right now and we'll be able to hold our "ecigs" high when out in public instead of hiding them.

Press and bash all you like for what you want folks...but having real scientific proof backing you up first, should be a prerequisite for an intelligent argument...and unfortunately neither side has that (yet).

While I agree with you for the most part, in one instance I do not. I do not find it false logic to assume something without Ammonia is even close to as harmful as something with.

True true, we dont know how flavoring, nicotiene and PG zll meld and what nasties can com e of it once imbedded qithin our soft lung tissue. But I by no means see it as absurd to make the assumption. As for proof, I do believe at least pg has been tested as a vaporized medium.

 

[Hangar]

To be honest the odds that they are going to be more harmfull than cigarettes is very small but just say they are.

So what if they are harmful? I should still have the right to use them though should i not? Or am i only allowed to kill myself if the government and a load of other people are getting a wedge off the top?

you WILL have the right to use it...AFTER some real testing has shown results one way or the other. Just because its harmful doesnt mean you wont be able to get it (look at the patch and gum afterall)...it just means that youll be better informed of what you're really in for by using it and that you might have to get it from properly monitored/regulated sources other than joe shmoe on the net. Inconvenient?, yep!...safer? possibly, in some ways.

...and by the way...if its shown that this is actually MORE or JUST AS harmful as analog smokes then the industry is doomed anyway because nobody's going to bother spending money on a NEW habbit that is actually alot less convenient than just lighting up a real smoke and that theyll still have to use outdoors away from non-smokers.

 

[green-lantern]

To be honest the odds that they are going to be more harmfull than cigarettes is very small but just say they are.

So what if they are harmful? I should still have the right to use them though should i not? Or am i only allowed to kill myself if the government and a load of other people are getting a wedge off the top?

Well you are allowed to kill yourself now with cigarettes so theoredically why would they have a problem with you killing yourself with the ecig? That wouldn't make sense.

LOL oh yeah, Not a bit of this bull has made any sense!

 

[TropicalBob]

Hangar, you get it. Others should read your post, and maybe they'll get it to. They are so many dead-end side roads here. Invalid comparisons. Flawed arguments. Rants without reason. You are right.

But of recent posts, this is the one I would choose to disagree with strongly:

Manufacturers can not be blamed for not testing this product to world standards.

Yes they can! Every government is asking for the same information to validate e-smoking. These things were invented in 2004. How much time is needed? Ruyan does have a study underway, but where are the other guys? Counting their profits? Instead of testing, they paid for insurance to protect themselves in case some of us croaked because we used their products. That's the truth you can find on some of their Web sites.

You want Australian approval? You want Canadian approval? You want U.S. approval? Then do what needed to be done before these were put on the market: Study the consequences of your product and then submit those studies to regulatory agencies. It is one size fits all -- if done properly.

And evereyone here, myself included, is betting their life that these are safe to use. Prove it.

What a sham. Yes, manufacturers are the blame.

 

[Boomer]

So even if they are found to be harmful you think we will be able to get hold of them. How long is this testing likely to take?

Oh and green-lantern we can kill ourselves with cigarettes yes but there are a lot of things we are not allowed to kill ourselves with. I think a lot of it is down to how much money the government can make from it.

They already have the system in place to tax us on cigarettes and im pretty sure if cigarettes were a new thing just coming on the scene they would never be legal.

Still i hope you guys are right i really do.

Peace Lee.

 

[Obi Wan]

Hangar, you get it. Others should read your post, and maybe they'll get it to. They are so many dead-end side roads here. Invalid comparisons. Flawed arguments. Rants without reason. You are right.

But of recent posts, this is the one I would choose to disagree with strongly:



Yes they can! Every government is asking for the same information to validate e-smoking. These things were invented in 2004. How much time is needed? Ruyan does have a study underway, but where are the other guys? Counting their profits? Instead of testing, they paid for insurance to protect themselves in case some of us croaked because we used their products. That's the truth you can find on some of their Web sites.

You want Australian approval? You want Canadian approval? You want U.S. approval? Then do what needed to be done before these were put on the market: Study the consequences of your product and then submit those studies to regulatory agencies. It is one size fits all -- if done properly.

And evereyone here, myself included, is betting their life that these are safe to use. Prove it.

What a sham. Yes, manufacturers are the blame.

MY OPINION,,
i agree..
the inventors who are also the manufacturers are to blame, but its because they are made in China and not here.
i work for an fda regulated company, and in America when you invent something that the fda will regulate then you have to provide the tests.
so if these are regulated and anyone wants to manufatcure them then they will have to follow strict rules,,test,,iso approval etc,,
so if a manufacturer like ruyan wants to export if the fda regulates or bans e-cigs then they would have to supply tests and results that pass what the fda wants.
not tests done there way..
hope that made sense,, im not as smart as you guys about this fda stuff,,
carry on,, great points and opinions... im learning from these posts and your agreements and disagreements..

 

[strayling]

And evereyone here, myself included, is betting their life that these are safe to use. Prove it.

We're betting our lives that they're not as harmful as tobacco cigarettes, which contain the same ingredients + a lot of known poisons and burn rather than vapourising. Disprove it.

 

[Obi Wan]

So even if they are found to be harmful you think we will be able to get hold of them. How long is this testing likely to take?

Oh and green-lantern we can kill ourselves with cigarettes yes but there are a lot of things we are not allowed to kill ourselves with. I think a lot of it is down to how much money the government can make from it.

They already have the system in place to tax us on cigarettes and im pretty sure if cigarettes were a new thing just coming on the scene they would never be legal.

Still i hope you guys are right i really do.

Peace Lee.

this is the number 1 thing i dont understand ?????
does the government and states make money from smokers or lose money ??? same with insurance companys which is why companys say they add smoking bans..
they claim the health costs are costing them to much money because smokers get sick more..
then they tax cigarettes real high and get alot of money from it..
so are smokers helping or hurting the states and the government with money???
maybe no one will ever know.. but if they know they are getting more money then losing, then they would want to stop e-cigarettes..