What is wrong with you?
- Thread starter DC2
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
No, you can't make the statements you did and then ask that we focus on the topic at hand. However, exactly like the current topic, you've been fed false information on crime in correlation with guns just like the tobacco prohibitionists have been feeding the general public false information on e-cigarettes. Find a study on crime and violence that isn't done by someone with an agenda and the data changes. For example, there was a 2007 study published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy which found that nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf Like with e-cigarettes, gun prohibitionists find it simple to leave off a bit of information here, not make an even comparison there, or even manipulate data when things aren't going their way.
As to people ignoring the fact that our vaping rights are in jeopardy, it has nothing to do with the new generation of vapers. Like DC2, I've been around these forums a long time in vaping years and the same thing happened when the FDA was trying to classify e-cigarettes as a medical device. We had to beg and plead to get people to even add their name to a simple petition... and then their favorite online store started running out of stock because it was all sitting in some warehouse at our ports where the FDA had stored it after confiscation. Sure they woke up, but only when they had to, and had it been left up to them it would have been much, much too late. Thank goodness NJoy and Smoking Everywhere didn't take the same stance, or every generation of vapers that came after DC2 and I would still be standing in the smoking areas slowly dying one cigarette at a time.
Last edited:
This country was on the edge of revolution in the early '70's. I in many ways wish it had come to that. The government feared us then and backed off. They have since perfected their craft whereby the politicians divide and conquer little pieces at a time. Smokers today, vapers the next.
Republicans cry out for no new taxes while acting to invoke road tolls and user fees where none existed before. Are they not taxes? Both Republicans and Democrats fight to their dying breath to protect a for-profit health care system that by itself is bankrupting the county. All the while they try to perpetuate the lie that it is the best health care system in the world when the facts speak boldly otherwise.
Republicans cry foul lest we over tax the 'job creators' (one of their latest ploys) when the 'job creators' generally just pocket the extra profits and if they create jobs at all do so in China.
Ethanol is forced on us as an alternative fuel when it is only a more expensive, less efficient scam that only enriches a few in the corn belt states and the corrupt politicians that benefit from corporate growers. Meanwhile food prices rise because of the demand for corn. Go figure.
The list of US government scams is endless. Sorry if tea partiers feel I haven't covered enough Democrat sins. They certainly exist. Wake up people.
Republicans cry out for no new taxes while acting to invoke road tolls and user fees where none existed before. Are they not taxes? Both Republicans and Democrats fight to their dying breath to protect a for-profit health care system that by itself is bankrupting the county. All the while they try to perpetuate the lie that it is the best health care system in the world when the facts speak boldly otherwise.
Republicans cry foul lest we over tax the 'job creators' (one of their latest ploys) when the 'job creators' generally just pocket the extra profits and if they create jobs at all do so in China.
Ethanol is forced on us as an alternative fuel when it is only a more expensive, less efficient scam that only enriches a few in the corn belt states and the corrupt politicians that benefit from corporate growers. Meanwhile food prices rise because of the demand for corn. Go figure.
The list of US government scams is endless. Sorry if tea partiers feel I haven't covered enough Democrat sins. They certainly exist. Wake up people.
Great thread.
I joined ECF and CASAA about 2 years ago. I wish everyone who vapes could do the same. Joining was my first realization that I might be able to help.
Thanks.
I joined ECF and CASAA about 2 years ago. I wish everyone who vapes could do the same. Joining was my first realization that I might be able to help.
Thanks.
Could have fooled me. As someone unwilling to blow clouds in restaurants, I'd say my help is quite unwelcome in many circles around here. I won't withdraw my help, as I'm well versed in defending my personal freedoms and rights as a female in this country. Still, I'm sure a great many feel that the attitude of "We don't want you unless you're as extreme as us!!!" as more then a little off putting.
^^This is disturbing. (Within the quote, I highlighted, in red, the most disturbing part.)
I'm sorry if someone blew clouds toward you, I probably would not have liked it either. I've never seen it though. So, if that's what happened and someone blew clouds toward you from an e-cig--
and now You are suggesting that cigarette smoke is the same as taking a hit from an e-cig ???????? and you want regulation on where people can vape????? omg
Which would all be a case for not vaping outdoors, yes? I mean if there are say 20 vapers congregated somewhere outdoors, and it bothers someone enough, then all of outdoors would be grounds for non vaping, because of that one problem in that one hypothetical place where someone was bothered. So, by this logic, starting now, it is NOT okay for vapers to vape outdoors. This is what you are implying, but I believe you and all the other anti-indoor vapers do not realize this is the epitome of your position.
I am yet to meet a vaper on a forum that argues for not vaping outdoors. Thank goodness we haven't gotten to that point yet. But if it is to be treated (exactly) like smoking, then there will be a great many places where it will be illegal / rude / wrong to vape outdoors. I'm fairly certain there have been places in the U.S. that have proposed an outdoor ban in their jurisdiction, going with the logic of if you can't smoke there, you ought not be allowed to vape there.
Again, no vaper that I'm aware of agrees with that (extreme). But if you were to press an anti-indoor vaper on their rationale, then I'm not sure how they could conclude otherwise. It can't be the harm issue, cause that would cover indoors. So, it has to be the rudeness factor.
Fortunately, we currently reside in a world where vast majority of vapers reading this (myself included) don't see many vapers in the wild, so the congregation thing sounds neato, but unfounded I would say for most vapers. Yet, we do live in a world where vast majority of people say smoking, regardless of where it is done, is rude/obnoxious. Could be a building (or home, private residence) entirely known for allowing smoking, and I'm saying overwhelming majority of people would consider that an obnoxious place, because it allows smokers to congregate there and (heaven forbid) cloud up the air. I really do not think vaping will ever get to that point, but do think it could come close, especially if fellow vapers or ex-vapers are making a case that a whole bunch of vapers together is a bad thing, and just down right rude.
So to prevent THAT, years before it has a chance of even occurring (in most places) we are supposed to ban it everywhere in terms of usage, and think that the market that we enjoy now will remain intact? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is possible. What other legal substance, that people ingest, is banned in most places yet has a booming market? eCigs currently have a booming market. I think it will for awhile, but part of that opinion is based on idea that it may be forced to go to a black market. It'll still be booming due to high demand, but it will be deemed sinful because a certain segment of the population (could end up being the majority) thought vaping anywhere was simply rude. Didn't matter if it was indoors or outdoors, it was just considered rude, and rather shameful.
Man, I'm glad I'm not in that camp.
Vaping or smoking indoors cannot be compared to doing it outdoors. Apples and oranges.
The vape or smoke has no where to go indoors and patrons are limited as to where they can go to get away from it. Outdoors you would have to pretty much be right in the immediate vicinty to be affected. There's a lot more room and its a heck of a lot better ventilated.
I love vaping but it can still be a little overwhelming when folks are vaping at the B&M that I frequent. Common sense should rule the day.
My feeling is that local businesses should be able to make their own rules in regards as to what's allowed on their premises. As for the great outdoors? Should be no laws. My taxes pay for public facilities too and people that whine about smoking or vaping outside are the type of people that are just not happy unless they're pooping all over someone else's good time.
I agree with your argument, but only in a hypothetical vacuum/perfect world. The world we live in has places with laws on the books that say you can't smoke so many feet within this or that OUTDOORS, and as a result becomes a defacto ban. There are places in CA where literally you can only smoke in a privately owned home or car with the windows closed. Have vaping made legally the same as smoking and you instantly have a defacto ban on vaping outdoors. It's not as far fetched as you think.
I'm down with letting businesses choose, but let's be real... Did they do that with smoking? What makes you think they will not go after vaping, the same way they did smoking? Are they not pushing to have vaping treated as smoking legally?
The problem isn't that your sentiment isn't logical, it's that your sentiment doesn't address the cold hard reality that the vile beast that our government is doesn't care about rational. It ignores that the concessions a rational person makes are based on specific situations, and comes to the conclusion that it can apply those concessions to all situations equally.
Me too!!
That means you and I are aware of the efforts being mounted against us in our areas. Or being pro-active & getting in touch with our policy makers ahead of time and information sharing of the real facts, studies & growing collection of information that people need.
It means, for me, that I vape out - not hide from others the fact that I have embraced an alternative that will save my life, and countless millions of others every day.
And vaping out creates opportunities to educate those who don't know what this e-cig/vaping thing is all about. Or counteract the lies & propaganda that pollutes the media day-in and day-out.
But... it takes more of our fellow vapers to recognize the war being waged against us, and step up to the plate as participants.
It doesn't require money, but being engaged like Hugh and many others like us!
Being engaged and vaping out doesn't and shouldn't mean that you need to vape absolutely everywhere though. I vape where I like outside. Whether it's technically banned in those outdoor areas in NYC or not due to NYC applying the same anti smoking laws to vaping. I have indeed educated people this way. I've converted smokers this way. I did it in a non offensive manner for the most part this way. Sure, I've encountered some anti smoking zealots who treated my vapor the same as smoke, but I knew and I believe, deep down, they knew that my vapor is not smoke. I've had far better reactions to it over all then I ever got from smoking, even if it was still a negative reaction. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to fight for common sense legislation. Saying it needs to be all or nothing is truly a pessimistic way to think about it, and helps to keep the bar low on what we can expect from our government. Personally, I'd rather see logic and common sense prevail in all things, rather then draconian bull.... laws or the Wild West. I want to raise the bar on what's expected from my representatives, not keep it where they either need to cater to an extremist group on one side or the other. It's catering to those two groups on any subject that is creating such a divide on this, and on every other national level debate. I still want a functional, well informed, reasonable and logical government.
I have organized collections from members of our regional group for CASAA. Together, with donations from vendors, we raised just over $1600 for CASAA last month. In past meets we have had a free raffle for prizes donated by vendors. I am proposing that each attendees raffle ticket should cost at least a dollar. Option to buy. Limit one. Proceeds to go to CASAA. With 350+ attendees, that's something.
Right. People don't realize the ramifications of what is being done to cigarettes and e-cigarettes. It sets a example how the government can put enormous taxes on anything. New York has already tried to do it with soda. This is what the zealots against e-cgis don't understand.
Tried to being key in that statement. Reason did win in New York in regards to the soda situation. It isn't impossible to demand that reason win on a number of other subjects, and in fact, on a great number of other debates dividing the country. Why shouldn't our activism include demanding a higher standard of our government? CASSAA isn't the only group I'm a part of.
I for one totally endorse your philosophy and approach.
It is much like my own, and hopefully we'll cross paths in 'the city' (when I next visit my daughter), or over at Sandy Hook if the weather ever breaks!
There is a reasonable way to vape anywhere for sure. I do it all the time. I stealth vape in restaurants. My issue isn't that it shouldn't be allowed. My issue is that I shouldn't be lumped in with zealots for stating that it's obnoxious to blow clouds in restaurants, and it's obnoxious to be called an ANTZ for not blowing clouds in restaurants. It's also obnoxious to be called an ANTZ for stating the obvious. There are reasonable laws that COULD and SHOULD be enacted for vaping. I for one would like a guarantee on the nic level I'm using and the ingredients in liquid. It is, after all, something we are inhaling.
I use gift cards to buy on line. When the card gets down to an amount I can't use on line, I head over to CASAA and donate!
I recently wrote my first Letter to the Editor to my local paper in response to a negative editorial that in many places was factually incorrect. Was limited to 200 words, and I wanted to reach those who were ignorant about vaping and NOT necessarily the person who wrote the editorial. I waited a few days to calm down and figure out who I wanted to reach and to keep it simple and easy to read. It was my mailman, who never smoked or vaped in his life, delivering vape mail for signature who said he ENJOYED my letter on the editorial page that notified me that it had been published. I had missed it in the Sun. paper!Found it. Printed word for word what I wrote. Did have a different title. Hope you like it. Here it is.
"Kick the habit with e-cigarettes (Newspaper's heading)
For those of your who are uneducated about e-cigarettes and think there hasn't been enough testing done concerning the vapor inhaled and emitted, please go to CASAA.org and E-CigaretteForum.com and read. CASAA has a wealth of information, including the latest testing results and happy stories of people who've switched to vaping from smoking. For me, after 53 years of smoking, vaping has cleared up my lungs, elimiated my cough, lowered my blood presssure, given me more stamina, lowered my weight, improved my sense of smell and taste, gotten rid of sinus problems. I sleep longer and deeper and haven't had colds or flu since I started. I quit smoking in one day. If you are afraid because vapor looks like smoke, then your bubbling soup, steaming shower and whistling tea kettle should send you into a tizzy! Those vapors are much different than smoke coming from your fireplace, fire pit, barbecue or a cigarette. Please educate yourself about the political forces involved by tobacco, pharmaceutical, and health companies/organizations. They all stand to lose money if vaping becomes mainstream. Even states lose money from the tobacco settlement if smokers don't keep smoking!"
What an outstanding example of what can be done by everyone!
- Status
Similar threads
