What is wrong with you?

[Free6413]

I can remember when you could smoke in a hospital, grocery store, heck everywhere! I can remember when you could buy any gun anywhere. You could buy a hunting rifle AND the ammunition and walk out the door with it. I could go to the corner store and buy cigs and beer for the "old man" with just a note from him. I am not saying that these actions are acceptable by today's standards but these WERE simpler times and everybody seemed to get along. There were conflicts but they were settled between the involved parties and they went their separate ways. Now there seems to be the idea that conflict resolution needs to be legislated and enforced by government agencies and oversight committees. When will people understand that the problem is not with the guns, cigs, alcohol or drugs but the people that use these to harm others. It is the mindset not the instruments. I saw a bumper sticker a few years ago that pretty much sums it all up. It read "Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donnel fat". This can be applied to everything. Blaming the inanimate objects for the harm and not the people that wield them is insane!

 

[choochoogranny]

Thank you, CabinGuyScott. I wanted to say so much, but limited to 200 words. Counted those words 'bout 10 times after editing, rearranging, adding and subtracting. Had hubby count too! Just wanted to reach the uninformed, illinformed, and completely oblivious readers. Most everyone knows a smoker; and if we can get the non-smokers informed so that the fear tactics don't work, perhaps we have a fighting chance!

 

[EddardinWinter]

No, you can't make the statements you did and then ask that we focus on the topic at hand. However, exactly like the current topic, you've been fed false information on crime in correlation with guns just like the tobacco prohibitionists have been feeding the general public false information on e-cigarettes. Find a study on crime and violence that isn't done by someone with an agenda and the data changes. For example, there was a 2007 study published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy which found that nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf Like with e-cigarettes, gun prohibitionists find it simple to leave off a bit of information here, not make an even comparison there, or even manipulate data when things aren't going their way.

As to people ignoring the fact that our vaping rights are in jeopardy, it has nothing to do with the new generation of vapers. Like DC2, I've been around these forums a long time in vaping years and the same thing happened when the FDA was trying to classify e-cigarettes as a medical device. We had to beg and plead to get people to even add their name to a simple petition... and then their favorite online store started running out of stock because it was all sitting in some warehouse at our ports where the FDA had stored it after confiscation. Sure they woke up, but only when they had to, and had it been left up to them it would have been much, much too late. Thank goodness NJoy and Smoking Everywhere didn't take the same stance, or every generation of vapers that came after DC2 and I would still be standing in the smoking areas slowly dying one cigarette at a time.

I saw this on a bumper sticker the other day, so I paraphrase:

Saying guns kill people is like saying spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.


While this thread should not derail into a pro-gun/anti-gun debate, they are both individual rights versus power of the State issues.

 

[wv2win]

Being engaged and vaping out doesn't and shouldn't mean that you need to vape absolutely everywhere though.......................I don't think it's completely unreasonable to fight for common sense legislation...........................

Your idea of "common sense" and many of us Vet vapers idea of common sense is quite different. Based on your previous posts, you support legislation that would equate vaping with smoking in indoor environments. Considering the scientific supported significant differences between vapor and smoke, your position lacks common sense. Our idea to vape almost anywhere, but respectfully and with "real" common sense, would negate any need for legislation on this topic and allow property owners to determine their own position on vaping indoors.

And I will reiterate that laws are not needed, due to the few in any sub-group of society, who are inconsiderate of others. Otherwise, we will need to pass laws on where people can talk on a cell phone or how much perfume they can wear, etc, etc, etc.

 

[DC2]

I've always seen it as a big joke to be honest. I've never wanted to be sitting next to someone blowing clouds while I'm in my favorite restaurant trying to enjoy a meal. I think back to my high school days when, yes it was technically illegal for me to smoke, but as long as I didn't blow smoke in anyone's face I always seemed to get away with it. There may be a similar concept here. I could be wrong, but how in the heck is anyone going to control what I do in my car, outside, in the bathroom, or anywhere people aren't affected by what I do? And why do people want to vape in public? I think its obnoxious. If you cant light a cig up, why would it be ok to hit your ecig?

I get your concern, and I have mine as well. I just think there are two sides to this, and may be it wouldn't be such a bad thing if we put some regulation on where people vape...

Thoughts?

In the end I don't care all that much WHERE they let me vape.
Because I can stealth vape and there is no way they can stop me.

Doesn't mean I'm not going to fight against the growing unreasonableness of such bans though.

But my biggest issue is the growing focus of the ANTZ on attacking nicotine itself...
The fact that my insurance has gone up $50 per month because I choose to use nicotine...
The growing trend towards denial of employment for nicotine users...

These things freaking outrage me.

 

[Free6413]

I saw this on a bumper sticker the other day, so I paraphrase:

Saying guns kill people is like saying spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.


While this thread should not derail into a pro-gun/anti-gun debate, they are both individual rights versus power of the State issues.

I would have to agree. This is not about any single movement but the fact that any study or publications can make claims to support their agenda. When we don't do the research and drink the kool-aid that is being offered, then we become sheep. Break the cycle and open your minds. This is not about any one topic but the systematic stripping or your rights to choose on your own. One day we will al wake up and realize the rights we are afforded by our Constitution are a distant memory. The problem is that most of today's youth have no idea how much has already been lost.

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

Your idea of "common sense" and many of us Vet vapers idea of common sense is quite different. Based on your previous posts, you support legislation that would equate vaping with smoking in indoor environments. Considering the scientific supported significant differences between vapor and smoke, your position lacks common sense. Our idea to vape almost anywhere, but respectfully and with "real" common sense, would negate any need for legislation on this topic and allow property owners to determine their own position on vaping indoors.

And I will reiterate that laws are not needed, due to the few in any sub-group of society, who are inconsiderate of others. Otherwise, we will need to pass laws on where people can talk on a cell phone or how much perfume they can wear.

If you kept reading, I said in another post that there are reasonable ways to vape in any situation, anywhere. My gripe is with the subset here who ridicule those who choose to stealth vape in indoor situation. I never stated there should be a LAW against it. Only that I should be allowed to call it obnoxious if I find it obnoxious. And it is. The only legislation I've ever written to be in favor for is ingredients in the liquids we are inhaling. I want a guarantee on what's in them so I can make an informed decision on where to get them.

 

[FatherTime]

i appreciate people like you who push people to actually do something. most, almost all people who disagree with the e cig bans just complain about how its unfair. they dont actually do anything. this includes myself. granted ive only been vaping less than a month, i see it everywhere there is vaping. people talking about bans and taxes and complaining and saying its horrible. a lot say just join casaa but how much could that do? and truthfully i dont think people know what they really can do to prevent these bans and taxes from happening. i am still unaware of the actions i can take to conserve e cigs power and there ability to get people off tobacco products and potentially SAVE LIVES. ive read something about this topic multiple times daily for weeks and STILL all i know is that i can join casaa. what can i really do? how can i help!? im ready to fight!

 

[wv2win]

If you kept reading, I said in another post that there are reasonable ways to vape in any situation, anywhere. My gripe is with the subset here who ridicule those who choose to stealth vape in indoor situation. I never stated there should be a LAW against it. Only that I should be allowed to call it obnoxious if I find it obnoxious. And it is. The only legislation I've ever written to be in favor for is ingredients in the liquids we are inhaling. I want a guarantee on what's in them so I can make an informed decision on where to get them.

I'm glad to read that you are against laws that prohibit where one can vape. I either misunderstood your position or confused your posts with someone elses.

 

[Free6413]

If you kept reading, I said in another post that there are reasonable ways to vape in any situation, anywhere. My gripe is with the subset here who ridicule those who choose to stealth vape in indoor situation. I never stated there should be a LAW against it. Only that I should be allowed to call it obnoxious if I find it obnoxious. And it is. The only legislation I've ever written to be in favor for is ingredients in the liquids we are inhaling. I want a guarantee on what's in them so I can make an informed decision on where to get them.

I agree on the juice topic but any other legislation is handing our decision making rights over to another governing body. Haven't we given enough away already? Long gone are the days when you would just tell someone their behavior is offensive to you. God forbid we state our opinion and offend anyone else. This is where America has gone awry. There has been so much legislation in the favor of special interest that if you happen to state your opinion and someone finds it offensive, you fall under a stigmatism of being a bigot or cruel. The reality of it is that I have an opinion. Others may not agree but it is still my opinion. When we stay silent in fear of offending, we become just that.....SILENT.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

A lot of things well said. For me, I try to give back.

In my history lessons, I heard a lot about men and woman who pushed for change. So many realized a better way and worked for that. Not only for their own welfare, but for others.

Joining CASAA helps with numbers for our advocates to refer to in debate. Please do so and spread the word. Help people get there.

Also, each month I have a few dollars automatically taken from my credit card account to help our advocates with things like travel, research, and information campaigns.

Being in Arizona, there is a CASAA representative in the far north, so my living in the south just makes us that much more aware. I have bookmarks for local and state newspapers, The state legislature, as a whole, and both the Democratic and Republican parties to watch for the beginning of legislation. I write to the newspapers whenever something pops up.

I write to my state and federal legislators. Most of my letters are similar, I just had to write my story and why it is beneficial. As elections come up, I will look for a belief in a smaller government where the people are expected to have responsibility. Someone who believes in a "nanny" state is not getting my vote.

Please join CASAA and write.

Any of us can do the same and should. It's how I do it.

 

[wv2win]

i appreciate people like you who push people to actually do something. most, almost all people who disagree with the e cig bans just complain about how its unfair. they dont actually do anything. this includes myself. granted ive only been vaping less than a month, i see it everywhere there is vaping. people talking about bans and taxes and complaining and saying its horrible. a lot say just join casaa but how much could that do? and truthfully i dont think people know what they really can do to prevent these bans and taxes from happening. i am still unaware of the actions i can take to conserve e cigs power and there ability to get people off tobacco products and potentially SAVE LIVES. ive read something about this topic multiple times daily for weeks and STILL all i know is that i can join casaa. what can i really do? how can i help!? im ready to fight!

As an individual, your voice is important, but small. As a group, our voices together are bigger and better heard. So it is very important that you join and support CASAA. CASAA will tell you where the hot-spots on vaping are and how we individually can help. They will provide you the information that will allow you to communicate with your elected officials more effectively. This same information compiled by CASAA will also help you educate the uninformed about vaping, it's benefits and safety. We also need to write to newspapers and provide comments on BS, lying articles that are written by the ANTZ's against vaping.

I carry my PV with me most places even if I have no intention of using it, just because about 50% of the time someone will ask me "what is that". That is all the opening I need to explain the many positive benefits of vaping.

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

This is off topic, but I have to ask. Is the more recent examples of this with offensive ideas getting censored the government, or capitalism? It has become unprofitable to allow a racist airtime, and so their shows are canceled. One can argue its society, but I wouldn't say that that is government. That capitalism, trying to make the most money.

 

[DC2]

The freedom to use ecigs without oppressive regulation and punishing taxes has finally gotten some people's attention. There are other such issues but people tend not to get too excited until injustice effects them.

I'm convinced that most Americans are too lazy, ignorant, comfortable and complacent to do anything effective in getting back control of a government that used to belong to we the people. It's not a 'Democrats are evil' or 'Republicans are evil' issue. The entire system has been corrupted and is for sale to the highest bidders. Government should serve and fear the people, not the opposite.

And I'm a perfect example of what you are saying.
Before I started vaping I was too lazy, ignorant, comfortable and complacent.

I didn't know how much I didn't know.
I didn't realize the extent of the problem.

Now I look around and see it everywhere.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

Being engaged and vaping out doesn't and shouldn't mean that you need to vape absolutely everywhere though.

I vape where I like outside. Whether it's technically banned in those outdoor areas in NYC or not due to NYC applying the same anti smoking laws to vaping. I have indeed educated people this way. I've converted smokers this way. I did it in a non offensive manner for the most part this way. Sure, I've encountered some anti smoking zealots who treated my vapor the same as smoke, but I knew and I believe, deep down, they knew that my vapor is not smoke. I've had far better reactions to it over all then I ever got from smoking, even if it was still a negative reaction. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to fight for common sense legislation. Saying it needs to be all or nothing is truly a pessimistic way to think about it, and helps to keep the bar low on what we can expect from our government. Personally, I'd rather see logic and common sense prevail in all things, rather then draconian bull.... laws or the Wild West. I want to raise the bar on what's expected from my representatives, not keep it where they either need to cater to an extremist group on one side or the other. It's catering to those two groups on any subject that is creating such a divide on this, and on every other national level debate. I still want a functional, well informed, reasonable and logical government.

This particular statement stops me in my tracks every time I see it in these discussions:

Being engaged and vaping out doesn't and shouldn't mean that you need to vape absolutely everywhere though.

At no time or place will anyone ever document that I, nor any of the thoughtful contributors advocate for radical, (literal) in-your-face, cumulus cloud, 100% everywhere, disrespectful vape in public strategies.

But MOST of the time, along come certain ECF members (not specifically you Tink!) that totally misrepresent the vape-in-public advocates' position as exactly that.

In my opinion, 'they' do it quite intentionally hoping to derail the main conversation and disrupt intelligent exchange.

Now specifically in response to your post: I wish you hadn't made the opening statement you did, because otherwise there is 100%, exact & spot-on agreement between us.

(Btw, I have more on the agreement part - but I'm going to cite it separately in a new reply.)

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

Being engaged and vaping out doesn't and shouldn't mean that you need to vape absolutely everywhere though. I vape where I like outside. Whether it's technically banned in those outdoor areas in NYC or not due to NYC applying the same anti smoking laws to vaping. I have indeed educated people this way. I've converted smokers this way. I did it in a non offensive manner for the most part this way. Sure, I've encountered some anti smoking zealots who treated my vapor the same as smoke, but I knew and I believe, deep down, they knew that my vapor is not smoke. I've had far better reactions to it over all then I ever got from smoking, even if it was still a negative reaction. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to fight for common sense legislation. Saying it needs to be all or nothing is truly a pessimistic way to think about it, and helps to keep the bar low on what we can expect from our government. Personally, I'd rather see logic and common sense prevail in all things, rather then draconian bull.... laws or the Wild West. I want to raise the bar on what's expected from my representatives, not keep it where they either need to cater to an extremist group on one side or the other. It's catering to those two groups on any subject that is creating such a divide on this, and on every other national level debate. I still want a functional, well informed, reasonable and logical government.

Now to the rest of my thought on where we agree ...

There are FDA food regulations in place - apply them to our juices so we know what is in them.

There are consumer electronic standards and regulations, apply them to our hardware.

There are FDA regulations & standards for cosmetics (stuff people put on their skin and stuff they ingest (lip glossy / stick stuff ) - apply where appropriate.

Business' have the option to decide their policies - NOT the f'ing politiicans

Government should be required to apply UNBIASED, sound, SCIENTIFIC, fact-based justification for coercive legislation (banning / restrictions use of legal products).

Vapers apply respectful common sense as to where, when, & how we vape in public.


It's all very simple.

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

Now to the rest of my thought on where we agree ...

There are FDA food regulations in place - apply them to our juices so we know what is in them.

There are consumer electronic standards and regulations, apply them to our hardware.

There are FDA regulations & standards for cosmetics (stuff people put on their skin and stuff they ingest (lip glossy / stick stuff ) - apply where appropriate.

Business' have the option to decide their policies - NOT the f'ing politiicans

Government should be required to apply UNBIASED, sound, SCIENTIFIC, fact-based justification for coercive legislation (banning / restrictions use of legal products).

Vapers apply respectful common sense as to where, when, & how we vape in public.


It's all very simple.

One would think so. I would like to see some of the more level headed minded people here like yourself make clear to some who would otherwise join with us on this battle that those going around ECF insulting anyone who stealth vapes in certain situations are not representative of those fighting for vaping rights. The subset that does so on this board are loud and appear on every thread on the subject. It creates a rift where there otherwise wouldn't be. There are examples in this very thread. They are small, perhaps, but they are loud. I am fighting the fight in a way I deem appropriate. It's my decision to stealth in many places not because I'm anti freedom, but because I know I'd mind if a cloud was blown in these places myself. Following the golden rule shouldn't mean you can't join CASAA, donate, attend public meetings on the subject, educate people, etc.... This fight shouldn't be an exclusive club.

 

[DC2]

There are people in this thread asking what they can do, so here is a list...

1) Tell your story
2) Educate
3) Raise Awareness

The first one is easy, and anyone can do it.

Tell your story to legislators, city councils, boards of health.
Tell your story to friends and neighbors, and to people who ask what you're doing.
Tell your story in the comments section that follow articles about electronic cigarettes.

And if you feel well-versed enough in the various studies available, you can add education along with your story.
If you are so inclined to do that, CASAA is a good resource.

As for raising awareness, buy CASAA informational cards ($2.50) and bring them to local vape shops.
Make sure they know about CASAA and urge them to provide the cards to customers.

Donate when you can.


Nobody has to do all these things, but just try to do some of them when you can.
Even if you just do one of these things, every now and then, you're at least doing something.

 

[Free6413]

I don't think vaping cumulous clouds anywhere is a good thing but some do. I believe if something is offensive, i have a choice. Either remove myself from the situation or use my voice to express that what you are doing is offensive to me. I don't have to be confrontational while doing it either. What most have been acclimated to is that if something is offensive to them in particular, that they must skew public opinion and create legislation to ban that offensive behavior from society. The sad thing is that the original offense was to an individual. Not the masses. If this can be applied to banning something then the same can be done for keeping something from becoming banned. With the collaborative effort of all of us together, then these bans and legislations can be overturned or prevented. Let's not focus on the few that believe that vaping anywhere is the issue but being able to make that choice is!

 

[Jman8]

Vaping or smoking indoors cannot be compared to doing it outdoors. Apples and oranges.

I disagree that it is apples to oranges. When the activity is considered inherently rude, it doesn't matter where it occurs. As I noted, a place could be known for allowing smoking, and vast majority would say that place is inherently obnoxious for doing so. It's the stigma/shame aspect that I think needs to be front and center with what we keep dancing around when we talk about places okay to vape and places inherently not okay.

The vape or smoke has no where to go indoors and patrons are limited as to where they can go to get away from it. Outdoors you would have to pretty much be right in the immediate vicinty to be affected. There's a lot more room and its a heck of a lot better ventilated.

I vaped in a restaurant about 3 weeks ago. You are implying that my vapor is still there lingering in the air. I mean, if it has no place to go indoors, then it must still be there. Detectable visually, or by smell or some other means. As I know you'll back down, rather easily, from such a preposterous claim, then it stands to reason that vapor does indeed have places to go when vaping indoors. Outdoors has the plausibility of being worse due to wind factor. I could be 30 feet from someone outside, but wind could bring that vapor right into the face of someone regardless of my intentions.

Good ventilation in a small indoors place would go a long ways, and then average ventilation in large place is IMO equal to outdoors. Vaping in a mega store is one of those places I just can't see any issue with, at all. And if issues are being brought up, then I think they equally apply to outdoors vaping. If it is medium to small place (like movie theater or cafe), then I can see why 20+ vapers going to town on their devices might pose an issue to non-vapers. In my entire 2 years of vaping, I'm yet to observe this first hand. Like not even close. But we are discussing on a forum like it happens all the time, and THAT is reason to agree to a 'reasonable indoor ban' or restriction.

I love vaping but it can still be a little overwhelming when folks are vaping at the B&M that I frequent. Common sense should rule the day.

My feeling is that local businesses should be able to make their own rules in regards as to what's allowed on their premises. As for the great outdoors? Should be no laws. My taxes pay for public facilities too and people that whine about smoking or vaping outside are the type of people that are just not happy unless they're pooping all over someone else's good time.

Someone owns land/property of the great outdoors. If it is the government, then that doesn't necessarily bode well for vapors.

Given existence of smoking regulations and shaming of that activity and the way vaping is being framed in national dialogue, then I think it is plausible that vaping outdoors in many public places will be treated as shameful, or illegal.

I hear you that there should be no laws on the outdoors, but not sure you or other anti-indoor vapors are hearing me/us who are saying that the indoor restriction stands a very good chance of leading to outdoor restrictions.

For me, that's what this thread is about. Are you contributing to overall position that leads majority to think vaping, like smoking, is deserving of public shaming/scrutiny, or are you standing on side of the debate that says vaping deserves no such scrutiny because it is relatively harmless and as bothersome as people who stand anywhere in public without a filter covering their mouth?